Mac Pro is not overpriced.

[handsome pete]

I can't see the point of futile discussions over Apple's pricing structure.

I don't really see the point in decrying the futility of a discussion when that applies to pretty much every discussion around here. Isn't the very nature of an Apple rumor site kind of pointless?

1)YEARS OF KNOWLEDGE,
2)DECISION AND PURCHASE TIME,
3)BUILDING AND TESTING TIME.

You severely overestimate the time and knowledge needed to build a PC. And the "time is money" argument doesn't hold much water either as people aren't productive/don't work 24/7.

 

[Umbongo]

I did the same kind of comparison as you did when the first Mac Pro was released. I compared the pricing of a dual xeon 2.66Ghz dual core 4Gb radeon x1900xt to the equivalent Dell precision workstation available and the HP Z series workstation and I arrived in all cased to rougly the same price for all 3 systems (the HP was a little cheaper and the Dell like 100$ more) then when I got my 2008 Mac Pro I did the same price comparison and again... same result... Apple is fairly well placed in the price segment and is quite competitive

That was at least 6 years ago. Yes in 2006 Apple were the cheapest, you couldn't even build cheaper. Same in 2008. Most likely due to deals with Intel for switching enabling them to provide two $700, later $800 CPUs in sub $3,000 systems and make a nice profit. HP and Dell were considerably more than Apple when the 2006 systems launched and came down over time and the 2008 models were closer to Apple's pricing.

After they moved to offering single CPU options that no longer became the case, most likely because Apple knew how much people would pay for a Mac Pro regardless of the hardware, as well as huge discounts expiring. They didn't even offer the top end of CPU choices either, or memory speed in 2009.

 

[reco2011]

Can we just end the PC/Mac pricing debate finally?

It should end because it's irrelevant. People buy what they want and what they can afford. There's obviously a market for Macs despite the fact there are people who consider them overpriced.

We all know the Mac's - be it more or less $ than the PC at purchase ends up being cheaper in the long run (MOST of the time) by time you factor in upgrade costs, anti-virus, additional software. Especially know that OS X upgrades are free, iWork and iLife are included, etc..

I strongly disagree with this statement. I have seen nothing to support such a conclusion. As a user of both I've found neither to be more or less problematic than the other. Back in the Windows 3.x / 95 days I would have agreed with you. But Windows has come a long way since those days.

 

[reco2011]

It's not quite fair to compare the D*00 series to the W**00 series FirePro, as the Mac Pro ones don't have ECC memory.

Still, as many have pointed out, workstations are a completely different ballgame when it comes to price/performance/stability. Professionals do need as much speed as they can get, but stability, reliability, accuracy and technical support are more important considerations.

That gaming PC might run rings around a Mac Pro in Crysis 3, but if a bit error causes an overnight 3D rendering job to go off the rails when project deadlines are tight, you could be in serious trouble.

A creative professional or scientist does not have time to troubleshoot issues on a custom-built computer, isolate which part(s) went bad and wrangle out the warranty/support/replacement procedure with individual component manufacturers. They need to be able to take the broken machine to a single vendor who can repair it completely within a reasonable time frame. Apple excels in this with their widely available, local stores and their top of class customer service ratings.

This is something the gamer d00ds who fully load up a $15k Mac Pro on the Apple Store, compare it to a $2k rig they built on PCpartpicker and claim Macs are a ripoff don't understand.

While I agree with you regarding the custom build comments along with Apple having a high customer service satisfaction rating it's my opinion having to pack up a system and haul it to an Apple store is not comparable to the onsite support offerings from other workstation vendors.

 

[keysofanxiety]

That was at least 6 years ago. Yes in 2006 Apple were the cheapest, you couldn't even build cheaper. Same in 2008. Most likely due to deals with Intel for switching enabling them to provide two $700, later $800 CPUs in sub $3,000 systems and make a nice profit. HP and Dell were considerably more than Apple when the 2006 systems launched and came down over time and the 2008 models were closer to Apple's pricing.

Image

After they moved to offering single CPU options that no longer became the case, most likely because Apple knew how much people would pay for a Mac Pro regardless of the hardware, as well as huge discounts expiring. They didn't even offer the top end of CPU choices either, or memory speed in 2009.

Funny you should post that, as I remember when people took issue with that picture. The Mac Pro was more expensive, because the DELL had a Quadro 550 (that at the time was well over $1000), whilst the Mac Pro was crippled with a cruddy 7300GT -- a consumer card.

So the Mac Pro was more expensive then as well. All this 'HP and DELL were more expensive, Apple used to be so competitive!' was baloney then, and baloney now. Apple have always charged a premium for the support and continuity between hardware and software, and whilst that's not a bad thing, you can't deny there's an Apple tax.

 

[Umbongo]

Funny you should post that, as I remember when people took issue with that picture. The Mac Pro was more expensive, because the DELL had a Quadro 550 (that at the time was well over $1000), whilst the Mac Pro was crippled with a cruddy 7300GT -- a consumer card.

So the Mac Pro was more expensive then as well. All this 'HP and DELL were more expensive, Apple used to be so competitive!' was baloney then, and baloney now. Apple have always charged a premium for the support and continuity between hardware and software, and whilst that's not a bad thing, you can't deny there's an Apple tax.

There wasn't an Apple tax in 2006, it had two $700 CPUs, a dual CPU board, 1KW PSU, a keyboard and mouse (lulz) and a $150 GPU. The FX 550 was a $150 GPU too, not sure where you got $1,000 from. You can find people surprised at the price on here and other big tech forums when they announced it and plenty of pricing comparisons.

As I said though, it hasn't been that way since around the summer of 2008 and certainly wasn't the case with the 2009 revision.

1,1 and 2,1 mac Pros are the only anomaly in pricing against custom builds out of all their Intel machines. Probably part of the reason people held on to them so long too, as it was so expensive to upgrade to something else -and they keep on ticking of course.

 

[evilpaddy]

Apologies. I feel rather pretentious re-reading my post. I guess my point is that value for money is subjective.

The fact that my car is worth more now than my purchase price when new is irrelevant unless I am willing to sell it.

Yes I'm sure you could build a semi comparable system to the nMP but it will never be identical and cost comparisons are therefore simplified. Apple does charge a premium over most other vendors, but after two decades of building windows machines,apple products do (largely) just work out of the box.

Stability is a huge bonus - they are difficult to tinker with in both hardware and software which has made me far less likely to break it than any other non-apple machine. My six monthly windows rebuilds are a long and distant memory.

Each to their own. I'm happy with the pricing, form and function. Although, in the interest of being totally honest, I do wish the TB cables were more securely attached!

 

[Riwam]

You severely overestimate the time and knowledge needed to build a PC. And the "time is money" argument doesn't hold much water either as people aren't productive/don't work 24/7.

TIME IS MONEY wether the time is part of your work or is stolen from your family life or othe leisure activities.
Whoever wants to build a good performing computer MUST spend a lot of time studying the different parts available in the market, choosing the best ones with the best price and service, gathering all the parts from different manufacturers and dealers together and investing a considerable amount of time until everything works as it should.
And yes, the knowledge and skill are NOT found in a box of corn flakes (unfortunately).
They must be acquired by investing much more time and energy, much, much more of those needed to finally build any computer by oneself!
It is therefore by no means a overestimation.
Apple products, in as far as I recall from the late 15 years, usually work out of the box and are therefore a very good choice for non skillful, non tech formed users like me.
I am one of those many thousands who appreciate a ready working device as soon as taken out of the box, since I, as many others, am in no measure to build anything by far remotely comparable to it by myself!
I am not ashamed to say it. I have other skills and knowledge in other fields and nobody is perfect.
Of course this applies to many other brands of quality computers as well but not if OSX is the choice.

 

[handsome pete]

TIME IS MONEY wether the time is part of your work or is stolen from your family life or othe leisure activities.

When you quantify it so broadly, then sure. That's also going under the assumption that the build process is a tremendous chore to the buyer. If someone could save a sizable chunk of actual money, then I'm sure they're fine with spending some spare time.

I'm not even disagreeing with the statement that it isn't an option for most, but I still think you overestimate the time needed for the process. With all of the resources out there today, a first time builder can put together a compatible parts list in minutes, and a basic build shouldn't take more than a couple of hours.

 

[beaker7]

Whoever wants to build a good performing computer MUST spend a lot of time studying the different parts available in the market, choosing the best ones with the best price and service, gathering all the parts from different manufacturers and dealers together and investing a considerable amount of time until everything works as it should.

Most of my builds take about 3-4 hours altogether.

 

[wallysb01]

TIME IS MONEY wether the time is part of your work or is stolen from your family life or othe leisure activities.

And for many, the build process and the research that goes into it IS a leisure activity. One that leads to the exact computer you need and usually for at least a slight discount.

Also, I'd object to the "TIME IS MONEY" thing. Time is most certainly not always money. The diminishing returns on an extra hour of work can even go negative as you just f-up and have to fix it later at the cost of more money in lost reagents/time.

Or put basically, since one can not actively be earning money at all moments of the day, time does not always equal money. The best you can say is time spent doing nothing (ie sleep, eat, play) can increase your ability to make money in the future.

 

[reyh]

Hi Guys,
I know I'm a newbie but I switch to MAC 3years ago...When I change proffesion from windows to unix, I am sold to MacOs..Ever since we are a family of MAC's..iphones, ipads, macbook pros, Imac and now MacPro..I was waiting for a MAC that will at least play current games since I will go back to be an occassional gamer again...But I will be using my MacPro 80% for work..Below are the reasons that many PC users tends to forget:

1. No viruses to worry about, not like a PC that you have to have antivirus and anti-malware/spyware to load and update each time..Even if you think that you cleaned it..Some entry is still in your registry..

2. The browsing experience, mouse/gestures and the fluidness of the browser..Better control.

3. Multi screen virtual desktop..This is the best ever for my line of work..

4. One single fan for all component..This is by far state of the art and more advance design..No liquid cooling here even under heavy CPU load..

5. All apple devices I have are in sync, facetime rings on all devices, imessages etc..I will never miss any messages..

6. Apple fully support bootcamp, which is flawless when you install Windows, all your devices will work, try this on a PC and install MacOS, you will have a hard time dealing with drivers (You have to research what devices will work just to make sure)

 

[unplugme71]

It should end because it's irrelevant. People buy what they want and what they can afford. There's obviously a market for Macs despite the fact there are people who consider them overpriced.



I strongly disagree with this statement. I have seen nothing to support such a conclusion. As a user of both I've found neither to be more or less problematic than the other. Back in the Windows 3.x / 95 days I would have agreed with you. But Windows has come a long way since those days.

I have plenty of support to prove this. I have receipts of purchasing anti-virus/malware, etc software subscriptions, plus having to upgrade to Windows 8 and paying for it, buying 3rd party software that the Mac offers for free, etc.

Both devices had a 3 year warranty. And after 5 years my Mac is still going strong whereas I had to replace the hard drive on my PC already.

Hardware aside, the software costs have already costed me more. So yes, the Mac is cheaper in the long run and I'm sure there are countless others that can agree. Remember, we are talking about similar specs (same family and roughly same freq of CPU specs), memory, hard drive speed/capacity, etc.

The same PC was only 280 less at the time of purchase of my Mac.

 

[reco2011]

I have plenty of support to prove this. I have receipts of purchasing anti-virus/malware, etc software subscriptions, plus having to upgrade to Windows 8 and paying for it, buying 3rd party software that the Mac offers for free, etc.

Or you could use several of the free A/V packages out there. Or, as I do, use none at all. What does upgrading to Windows 8 have to do with anything? You're not forced to do so therefore it's not a problem with Windows. What third party software are you referring to?

Both devices had a 3 year warranty. And after 5 years my Mac is still going strong whereas I had to replace the hard drive on my PC already.

There are only a few hard drive manufacturers in the world today. Not one of them manufactures hard disks exclusively for Apple. Thus they all use the same quality drives (and, IMO, no hard drive manufacturer is better / worse than another). About the only difference between Apple and non-Apple hard drives might be the firmware.

Hardware aside, the software costs have already costed me more. So yes, the Mac is cheaper in the long run and I'm sure there are countless others that can agree. Remember, we are talking about similar specs (same family and roughly same freq of CPU specs), memory, hard drive speed/capacity, etc.

The same PC was only 280 less at the time of purchase of my Mac.

All you provided was an anecdote. That's not going to be sufficient to support your case.

 

[Riwam]

All you provided was an anecdote. That's not going to be sufficient to support your case.

I have still a G4 15" iMac. It is quite old and cannot run many present apps but it still works OK. A fist generation Mini with a 1.25 MHz Power PC is also very old but still works OK. A MP 2010 5.1 worked for me 3 years and I never needed my Apple Care, not a single time!

It might also be "anecdotes", as you call it, however I never had any PC or Windows notebook living so many years and still working without serious problems of one kind or another in spite of their old age.

Anecdote or not anecdote, I believe in Apple's quality, even if I am aware that Apple assembles components made by different manufacturers and make by themselves only some parts of their products.

Design of systems and quality control of the parts employed and of the final product, are no less important than the manufacture of components made for different brands. This applies by the way to all kind of products of every kind, and of course not only to computers.
Few industrial products are nowadays entirely manufactured by one single manufacturer.

 

[reco2011]

I have still a G4 15" iMac. It is quite old and cannot run many present apps but it still works OK. A fist generation Mini with a 1.25 MHz Power PC is also very old but still works OK. A MP 2010 5.1 worked for me 3 years and I never needed my Apple Care, not a single time!

It might also be "anecdotes", as you call it, however I never had any PC or Windows notebook living so many years and still working without serious problems of one kind or another in spite of their old age.

Anecdote or not anecdote, I believe in Apple's quality, even if I am aware that Apple assembles components made by different manufacturers and make by themselves only some parts of their products.

Design of systems and quality control of the parts employed and of the final product, are no less important than the manufacture of components made for different brands. This applies by the way to all kind of products of every kind, and of course not only to computers.
Few industrial products are nowadays entirely manufactured by one single manufacturer.

And I can provide just as many anecdotes to support PCs having a long life. And I'm not "calling" them anecdotes. They are anecdotes.

 

[slughead]

Anecdote or not anecdote, I believe in Apple's quality, even if I am aware that Apple assembles components made by different manufacturers and make by themselves only some parts of their products.

And I can provide just as many anecdotes to support PCs having a long life. And I'm not "calling" them anecdotes. They are anecdotes.

I may be jumping in the middle of this, but I know for a fact my DIY PCs use better parts than any of the Macs I've ever owned. I buy the best quality hard drives, RAM, video cards, whereas Apple skimps on the quality of the brands they choose quite often. You never know what you're actually buying. I also buy the highest quality power supply whereas Apple has had quite a few SNAFU's with its PSU's. We all know about the video cards Apple has shipped with the Mac Pros in the past: the 8800GT, the x1900 radeon, etc. I get parts that have individual warranties lasting 5 years to LIFETIME for a sum total of 40-60% less than Mac offerings. Even silly tech bloggers who compare the D700 to W9000 ignore that the W9000 comes with wipe-your-ass-on-site service for many years longer than the D700, as well as guaranteed support by the pro apps for which the FirePros were designed (D700 is 1 year hardware support only with no software support, making it FirePro in name only). Luckily for Apple, even components with bad brands end up being pretty decent nowadays, as Google's platter drive testing have shown.

The point is: If you know how to shop (or even if you just rely on highly reviewed components off newegg/amazon), your DIY PC will probably have better components and a longer warranty than the average mac. Of course this has nothing to do with laptops et al but this whole "Apple's better because my feels tell me" is probably not the best thing to go on.

 

[slughead]

That gaming PC might run rings around a Mac Pro in Crysis 3, but if a bit error causes an overnight 3D rendering job to go off the rails when project deadlines are tight, you could be in serious trouble.

A creative professional or scientist does not have time to troubleshoot issues on a custom-built computer, isolate which part(s) went bad and wrangle out the warranty/support/replacement procedure with individual component manufacturers. They need to be able to take the broken machine to a single vendor who can repair it completely within a reasonable time frame. Apple excels in this with their widely available, local stores and their top of class customer service ratings.

And what happens when you smoke a GPU in your D700 because it's been running at 90C with no ECC and you need to replace it to continue working? Gotta haul it to the local Apple retailer and pray to Tim Cook they have a spare sitting around. This as opposed to either having a REAL firepro with on-site service and OR using a consumer card where you can walk into any best buy and pick up a replacement.

This is something the Mac Fanboys don't understand: FirePro support is for real professionals, and that's what the Dx00 don't even remotely approach. Either the nMP is a ripoff because they're charging firepro prices and not offering firepro support, or they're over-charging for consumer cards while offering slightly better than consumer-card level support (with no practical means of quick replacement).

 

[reyh]

Most business have apple care depending on business needs with 24hr replacement..

 

[unplugme71]

Or you could use several of the free A/V packages out there. Or, as I do, use none at all. What does upgrading to Windows 8 have to do with anything? You're not forced to do so therefore it's not a problem with Windows. What third party software are you referring to?


There are only a few hard drive manufacturers in the world today. Not one of them manufactures hard disks exclusively for Apple. Thus they all use the same quality drives (and, IMO, no hard drive manufacturer is better / worse than another). About the only difference between Apple and non-Apple hard drives might be the firmware.



All you provided was an anecdote. That's not going to be sufficient to support your case.

What free A/V packages have the same feature set as a paid-subscription? I don't know of any free ones that offer the same level of protection from virus, malware, internet/email scanning, etc.

My point with Windows was its a paid upgrade and a pricey one. And since we are comparing the useful life of the computer, that includes upgrades. So to maintain a current release system, the price of each OS release has to be considered. Not everyone sits back on Windows XP.

We can debate this all year long. What my point is, Mac's are not always "more" expensive. There will always be an exception. Just with anything - cars, TV's, your current or future wife, etc..

 

[tuxon86]

What free A/V packages have the same feature set as a paid-subscription? I don't know of any free ones that offer the same level of protection from virus, malware, internet/email scanning, etc.

My point with Windows was its a paid upgrade and a pricey one. And since we are comparing the useful life of the computer, that includes upgrades. So to maintain a current release system, the price of each OS release has to be considered. Not everyone sits back on Windows XP.

We can debate this all year long. What my point is, Mac's are not always "more" expensive. There will always be an exception. Just with anything - cars, TV's, your current or future wife, etc..

The first question you should ask yourself is why are you letting your production workstation user surf the internet?

Email should be administered and filtered also, so no personnal email on the workstation either. People have smart phones or tablets for email these days.

in short, if a computer is making you money, then it shouldn't be use for anything else then that.

 

[fuchsdh]

The first question you should ask yourself is why are you letting your production workstation user surf the internet?

Email should be administered and filtered also, so no personnal email on the workstation either. People have smart phones or tablets for email these days.

in short, if a computer is making you money, then it shouldn't be use for anything else then that.

Welcome to human nature.

 

[tuxon86]

Welcome to human nature.

cue the "darwin" effect then....

 

[iBug2]

Either the nMP is a ripoff because they're charging firepro prices and not offering firepro support, or they're over-charging for consumer cards while offering slightly better than consumer-card level support (with no practical means of quick replacement).

They are charging consumer-card prices with the standard Apple tax on it. So what you are getting is a semi-FirePro for the price of a Radeon. I'd say that's a great deal.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple Tax, Apple Tax, Apple Tax....

This is all I hear and it is ridiculous. Is it cheaper to build your own? YES. Is it cheaper to build your own vs buying a Dell? YES.

I have heard so many arguments saying Apple charges WAYYYYYYY too much for their ram. Go to a PC manufacture site, okay not configure a system. What happens when you add more ram? It costs more than if you buy ram from a third party AFTER you purchase the computer. Just like apple. Shocking!! In my experience, Dell gives out cheap ram (high latency, low speeds, random manufactures) on their cheaper systems.

You guys need to realize that doing things yourself will ALWAYS be cheaper initially than going through a company. Do you really REALLY think a company will put together a computer for you with $0 profit? Come on, get real. Companies make money, that is what they do. They spend money with R&D, so they need to make that up by increasing the price of their computers.

Also, you get iWork and iLife for free (not some 90 trial as on most Windows PC from manufacturers).

1 free one-on-one session with an Apple Store Employee. How do you think that employee gets paid for that session?

Add on top of the cost of OS X (and Windows on a standard Windows PC)

No bloat - no adware, trials, or 6 different Dell Utilities (Dell for example)

Case design - Yes the case does make a difference in price. It took that company to spend some money on R&D for that case, so they need to add that cost in the product. For example, if I build my own computer, I always spend about $150+ JUST on the case.