Mac Pro ..... LONG term

[goMac]

Can you name any apps that require Sierra and don't run on El Cap or Yosemite? While an app update can certainly set new minimum requirements, I've never been forced to "upgrade or die."

Xcode just moved to Sierra as minimum.

Either way, people just buying 5,1s are going to be screwed. If there is a new nMP, it will likely be better than what the 5,1 has to offer (980Ti is getting old.) If the nMP is discontinued, than support for all Mac Pros will quickly evaporate like the Xserve, with the 6,1 surviving the longest.

So it's hard to see where the sense is in moving to a 5,1 today.

 

[ownagetechgeek]

A 2009-2012 Mac Pro is great for the short term to mid term. I do believe however the reasonable life left in a 2009/2010/2012 Mac Pro is running out. Unfortunately they are the only real upgradeable system that Apple has made in forever. I don't believe we're on the breakthrough of Apple releasing one either. I'd advise building a Hackintosh... they're a lot cheaper per unit of performance than the nMP or anything else Apple could sell you and on top of it... it's upgradable.

If you are against doing the building yourself you could have it built at MicroCenter or any other retailer that builds PCs. Hackintoshing while a nuisance sometimes would be the best bet if you want a LONG TERM system.

 

[Larry-K]

Whenever a new MacOS is introduced, I always download and save the install dmg in case an upgrade is (eventually) needed. That way I'm not forced to use the most recent OS. I've got the Mavericks install as well as El Cap and Sierrra. The only one I never got was Yosemite.

It helps to always have options, since Apple is less inclined to provide those options.

Same here, I needed Mavericks, and I had forgotten to download it to account, fortunately I had a Mini that showed up with it, and I was able to get it from that, after a bit of arcane gesticulation.

Does anyone lament the passing of Yosemite? Just Curious.

 

[Yahooligan]

Xcode just moved to Sierra as minimum.

Either way, people just buying 5,1s are going to be screwed. If there is a new nMP, it will likely be better than what the 5,1 has to offer (980Ti is getting old.) If the nMP is discontinued, than support for all Mac Pros will quickly evaporate like the Xserve, with the 6,1 surviving the longest.

So it's hard to see where the sense is in moving to a 5,1 today.

Ok, and why is updating Xcode necessary for everyone if the current version is sufficient for their needs? Perhaps I should have asked for an app that also forced an update for it to continue functioning.

If you're someone that wants or needs to run the latest of everything then sure, it doesn't make sense to buy hardware that's been EOL for a while.

But if you don't need to run the latest of everything and what works today is all you need then what is the issue?

 

[dtechlogic]

A 2009-2012 Mac Pro is great for the short term to mid term. I do believe however the reasonable life left in a 2009/2010/2012 Mac Pro is running out. Unfortunately they are the only real upgradeable system that Apple has made in forever. I don't believe we're on the breakthrough of Apple releasing one either. I'd advise building a Hackintosh... they're a lot cheaper per unit of performance than the nMP or anything else Apple could sell you and on top of it... it's upgradable.

If you are against doing the building yourself you could have it built at MicroCenter or any other retailer that builds PCs. Hackintoshing while a nuisance sometimes would be the best bet if you want a LONG TERM system.

That will be my next system within a year or two. I don't think I will drop more money into a new MAC soon. Anyways as long as it work for me I am happy with my aging mac pro 5,1.

 

[goMac]

Ok, and why is updating Xcode necessary for everyone if the current version is sufficient for their needs? Perhaps I should have asked for an app that also forced an update for it to continue functioning.

The app store will force the latest version of Xcode after a short time, and you can't develop for new versions of iOS on old versions of Xcode.

Try hooking up an iPhone running 10.3 and old Xcode will not have it.

And Apple doesn't back port new Swift to old Xcode.

 

[Yahooligan]

The app store will force the latest version of Xcode after a short time, and you can't develop for new versions of iOS on old versions of Xcode.

Try hooking up an iPhone running 10.3 and old Xcode will not have it.

And Apple doesn't back port new Swift to old Xcode.

How will the app store force anything if auto updates aren't enabled? It won't force an incompatible update anyway, try installing OS X Server before the macOS update has been done, it won't work. I've never, ever had anything be "forced" to update.

Valid points regarding developing, but again that would fall under someone that needs to run the latest, not someone that only needs what's available today.

 

[goMac]

How will the app store force anything if auto updates aren't enabled?

You won't be permitted to submit your application to the app store with an old Xcode.

Valid points regarding developing, but again that would fall under someone that needs to run the latest, not someone that only needs what's available today.

Being able to plug in a phone running 10.3 is kind of sort of really really important. Unless you're giving up on testing on new versions of iOS, or if you keep your devices away from new iOS versions.

 

[Yahooligan]

You won't be permitted to submit your application to the app store with an old Xcode.



Being able to plug in a phone running 10.3 is kind of sort of really really important. Unless you're giving up on testing on new versions of iOS, or if you keep your devices away from new iOS versions.

Again, you are focused solely on this point and that's not what I'm talking about. Forget Xcode and 10.3. If someone's workflow or daily operations don't involve or require those things and they only use, need, and care about tools that function *today* without a need for supporting future versions of anything, there is nothing to force them to need to upgrade. Again, I said in my post earlier that would fall under someone that needs the newest updates and would need newer hardware anyway.

I don't write iOS apps, I don't need what the latest Xcode has to offer. What is going to force me to upgrade if what I have and do *today* is all I need? Nothing is going to force me to upgrade. That's the point that some people seem to be missing.

 

[goMac]

I don't write iOS apps, I don't need what the latest Xcode has to offer. What is going to force me to upgrade if what I have and do *today* is all I need? Nothing is going to force me to upgrade. That's the point that some people seem to be missing.

You asked for something that requires Sierra. I gave you an important workflow to one type of user that requires Sierra. Now you're in a huff over it.

If you can't connect to a phone running 10.3 or newer, your Xcode workflow is pretty much DOA. You don't have to like that, but that's how it is. Ignoring iOS devices running 10.3 or newer is a fantasy, especially given that restoring devices to 10.2 will be impossible soon, and new devices ship with 10.3.

 

[pat500000]

Can you name any apps that require Sierra and don't run on El Cap or Yosemite? While an app update can certainly set new minimum requirements, I've never been forced to "upgrade or die."

Not at the moment because some of my apps had moved up to el capitan. However, some of my plugins from fx factory does require sierra.

 

[Yahooligan]

You asked for something that requires Sierra. I gave you an important workflow to one type of user that requires Sierra. Now you're in a huff over it.

If you can't connect to a phone running 10.3 or newer, your Xcode workflow is pretty much DOA. You don't have to like that, but that's how it is. Ignoring iOS devices running 10.3 or newer is a fantasy, especially given that restoring devices to 10.2 will be impossible soon, and new devices ship with 10.3.

I'm not in a huff over it, you've latched on to it and are ignoring everything else I've said. Did you miss where I said...

"If you're someone that wants or needs to run the latest of everything then sure, it doesn't make sense to buy hardware that's been EOL for a while."

and

"Valid points regarding developing, but again that would fall under someone that needs to run the latest, not someone that only needs what's available today."

Let's move on.

 

[Sharky II]

Basically the whole argument here is based around 'well just don't update your software then', despite the fact that there's currently no legitimate reason that the systems can't run the software. Native instruments update their software regularly and very often will throw out support for older OSs without warning - despite offering bug fixes etc. They do not want to support anything lower than 10.9... soon that will be 10.10, obviously. The yearly OS update cycle is exacerbating the issue.

If nobody updated or tried to buy new software (that's perfectly capable of running on the system), we wouldn't get too far, so that argument is an obvious one to me. Sure we could all still run 10.6.8 and get by with iWork and iPhoto, and Photoshop CS 4?... right?

Yes I have a 4,1 but it's a very powerful computer (12 core 3.46, 48GB, PCIe SSD etc etc) even by 2017 standards, and would like to update Logic if a new version comes out. If they make it really difficult to do so, that's annoying and I think that's fair to say without the 'well you don't HAVE to update' crowd come out.

Obviously you can not update - in fact, that's the only option you have, other than buying a new more powerful computer - which there may or may not be in the future.

 

[sigmadog]

On the "forced" upgrade issue, the reason I anticipate moving to El Cap next year is because our tax software will require it as a minimum for 2018. Once we do that, it's possible our Adobe CS6 apps will not function well, so we'll need to upgrade to Adobe CC.

Our costs will be passed to our customers, but even so, 2018 is looking to be an expensive year.

Also (sort of OT), I no longer buy from the App Store. Whenever possible, I like to buy from outside sources, usually the software maker directly. It may cost a bit more, but I just prefer dealing directly with the maker.
[doublepost=1490910422][/doublepost]

Does anyone lament the passing of Yosemite? Just Curious.

I wish I had the Install dmg for Yosemite. That's one I regret not downloading because I had a MacBook Pro with Yosemite and I enjoyed some of the features. But since Mavericks is so stable with my work apps, I stay with it.

 

[Yahooligan]

Basically the whole argument here is based around 'well just don't update your software then', despite the fact that there's currently no legitimate reason that the systems can't run the software. Native instruments are updating their software and do not want to support anything lower than 10.9... soon that will be 10.10, obviously. The yearly OS update cycle is exacerbating the issue.

There are multiple legitimate reasons to Apple, it takes money and time to have people write drivers and updates for hardware that's been out of production for quite a while. As the years go by that list gets longer and longer. Apple is in both the hardware and software game, it's in their best interest to have programmed obsolescence.

Microsoft isn't in the same PC hardware game and they don't have to develop drivers for all the available hardware in PC land. Same with Linux.

Apple controls everything Apple, if they choose to release something with shiny new features but your system isn't supported then they really don't care. If a 3rd party releases an updated app that no longer supports your system because it relies on those shiny new features and you need those features then I guess you're getting new hardware.

The older Macs will continue to be functional and relevant for many people long after Apple drops support for them from macOS, to say that everyone will be forced to upgrade and the hardware will basically cease to function is false. Some people will be forced to, sure, but not everyone.

Mac Pro long term comes down to the individual and what they're going to be doing. They'll be great long-term for many people but not others, nothing wrong with that. There's simply no single answer that will apply to everyone.

 

[Larry-K]

I wish I had the Install dmg for Yosemite. That's one I regret not downloading because I had a MacBook Pro with Yosemite and I enjoyed some of the features. But since Mavericks is so stable with my work apps, I stay with it.

You could put in a new hard drive and do the internet reinstall to get the original installer, that's what I did with the mini.

 

[Yahooligan]

I wish I had the Install dmg for Yosemite. That's one I regret not downloading because I had a MacBook Pro with Yosemite and I enjoyed some of the features. But since Mavericks is so stable with my work apps, I stay with it.

You could put in a new hard drive and do the internet reinstall to get the original installer, that's what I did with the mini.

If you downloaded it from the App Store using your iCloud account then it's still available to download under the "Purchased" tab. The installer contains the DMGs needed to create a bootable installer on a USB stick, etc.

 

[sigmadog]

You could put in a new hard drive and do the internet reinstall to get the original installer, that's what I did with the mini.

If you downloaded it from the App Store using your iCloud account then it's still available to download under the "Purchased" tab. The installer contains the DMGs needed to create a bootable installer on a USB stick, etc.

Thanks, guys, but I'm not sure I want to take the chance upgrading the OS on my workstation until it's time to go to El Cap at least. I don't even have the MacBook Pro (the one that had Yosemite) anymore, so the features I liked are "out of sight, out of mind".

 

[Jayson A]

My Mac Pro 1,1 lasted me from Tiger to Leopard to Snow Leopard to Lion to Mountain Lion to Mavericks to Yosemite to El Capitan.

Why wouldn't a Mac Pro 5,1 stop any time soon?? It has a 64bit EFI (32bit EFI was the reason Mac Pro 1,1 and 1,2 were left behind at Lion)

I'd say having a Mac Pro 5,1 is the last truly great machine from Apple that's fully upgradeable.

 

[Larry-K]

If you downloaded it from the App Store using your iCloud account then it's still available to download under the "Purchased" tab. The installer contains the DMGs needed to create a bootable installer on a USB stick, etc.

View attachment 694234

The problem is if you didn't download it during that period. I could find no way to get it. I did have Mavericks on a Mini, so I could could get the original system dowloaded.

I haven't bought a new Mac since then, but I did download El Cap for when I'm forced to upgrade, I'll avoid Sierra as long as I can.

 

[ownagetechgeek]

My Mac Pro 1,1 lasted me from Tiger to Leopard to Snow Leopard to Lion to Mountain Lion to Mavericks to Yosemite to El Capitan.

Why wouldn't a Mac Pro 5,1 stop any time soon?? It has a 64bit EFI (32bit EFI was the reason Mac Pro 1,1 and 1,2 were left behind at Lion)

I'd say having a Mac Pro 5,1 is the last truly great machine from Apple that's fully upgradeable.

They're just old and inherently with older machines you experience A LOT of problems. While I love my Mac Pros too, I don't use them as my main workstations anymore. They're great machines for the short to mid term but as a long term work horse machine I think not. Fully upgradable doesn't change the fact that it's going towards fully obsolesce.

In the next few years 4,1/5,1s will begin experience the "worn out" period. The caps, wiring, traces and others will begin to show their age. Sure, you could fix it... but how long do you want to drop money into it? They're remarkable machines and at the moment flawless in OSX, giving you OSX simplicity. As soon as official support drops however, you get into the arena of really complicated maintenance even worse so than Windows. Summarizing, they're getting old and they'll only go so far. Therefore making a long term recommendation bad.

While you may be using yours for a typical home use I'll assume you like most of us using it for professional usage. Apple hasn't released jack while HP and Dell have been regularly releasing and offer insane amounts of customization at a reasonable cost. You can buy something that that can destroy even the most upgraded Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 still at a reasonable price. A lot of people here have bought those in order to stay competitive in the film/video industry... they just can't handle the dynamics of 4k footage. They just aren't competitive now, the general time frame is 2-3 years for a new professional machine.

It's unfortunate that Apple will kill support, but it's inevitable. If your insistent on real Apple macs only then this is your best bet. A well built high end dual socket Hackintosh is possible and doable. I've included an example build from 2015... you probably could upgrade it. If you're fully satisfied by your 4,1/5,1 then stick with it. If you, like me, desire more performance, you can build a reasonable Hackintosh. While the 5,1 is pretty easy right now to run the latest OS, when official support is dropped it would be just as tough as a Hackintosh to maintain. I hope you like this build... it's what I built.

Lian Li PC-A71F-B Case $209
Supermicro X10DAX WS Mobo $440
Xeon E5-2698v3 2.3GHz 16 core x 2 $6498
Dual GeForce GTX 780 $1500
Crucial ECC 64GB PC4-2133 4 x 16GB $785
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB x 2 $678
EVGA 1300W PSU $195
TOTALS: $10305

You would probably want to upgrade this. Even something at half of this price would still crush the 12 core Mac Pro.

 

[MacStu09]

They're just old and inherently with older machines you experience A LOT of problems. While I love my Mac Pros too, I don't use them as my main workstations anymore. They're great machines for the short to mid term but as a long term work horse machine I think not. Fully upgradable doesn't change the fact that it's going towards fully obsolesce.

In the next few years 4,1/5,1s will begin experience the "worn out" period. The caps, wiring, traces and others will begin to show their age. Sure, you could fix it... but how long do you want to drop money into it? They're remarkable machines and at the moment flawless in OSX, giving you OSX simplicity. As soon as official support drops however, you get into the arena of really complicated maintenance even worse so than Windows. Summarizing, they're getting old and they'll only go so far. Therefore making a long term recommendation bad.

While you may be using yours for a typical home use I'll assume you like most of us using it for professional usage. Apple hasn't released jack while HP and Dell have been regularly releasing and offer insane amounts of customization at a reasonable cost. You can buy something that that can destroy even the most upgraded Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 still at a reasonable price. A lot of people here have bought those in order to stay competitive in the film/video industry... they just can't handle the dynamics of 4k footage. They just aren't competitive now, the general time frame is 2-3 years for a new professional machine.

It's unfortunate that Apple will kill support, but it's inevitable. If your insistent on real Apple macs only then this is your best bet. A well built high end dual socket Hackintosh is possible and doable. I've included an example build from 2015... you probably could upgrade it. If you're fully satisfied by your 4,1/5,1 then stick with it. If you, like me, desire more performance, you can build a reasonable Hackintosh. While the 5,1 is pretty easy right now to run the latest OS, when official support is dropped it would be just as tough as a Hackintosh to maintain. I hope you like this build... it's what I built.

Lian Li PC-A71F-B Case $209
Supermicro X10DAX WS Mobo $440
Xeon E5-2698v3 2.3GHz 16 core x 2 $6498
Dual GeForce GTX 780 $1500
Crucial ECC 64GB PC4-2133 4 x 16GB $785
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB x 2 $678
EVGA 1300W PSU $195
TOTALS: $10305

You would probably want to upgrade this.

This post is pretty accurate. Many good points made. However, @Jayson, you don't need to spend anywhere near that kind of money to make a significant upgrade. In fact, you can make a huge upgrade for under $500 if you look for deals. I picked up one of those ~$300 used workstations on eBay that I mentioned in another thread, and it absolutely destroys my Mac Pro (even outperforms the nMP). As much as I love my cMP, it's a no brainer for professional work.

I was so accustomed to my graded, multi-cam sequences taking up to 1.5x the project length to export (or far more in 4k), I thought that was normal. I edited a complete project on that $300 xeon e5 workstation not too long ago, and it exported the same 4 minute project that my Mac Pro took ~10 minutes for in just 1 minute. In Audition I literally had 0 export time, even on a fairly complicated project. My best advice: shop around and avoid Macs for professional work. There is so much bang for your buck elsewhere.

 

[ownagetechgeek]

This post is pretty accurate. Many good points made. However, @Jayson, you don't need to spend anywhere near that kind of money to make a significant upgrade. In fact, you can make a huge upgrade for under $500 if you look for deals. I picked up one of those ~$300 used workstations on eBay that I mentioned in another thread, and it absolutely destroys my Mac Pro (even outperforms the nMP). As much as I love my cMP, it's a no brainer for professional work.

I was so accustomed to my graded, multi-cam sequences taking up to 1.5x the project length to export (or far more in 4k), I thought that was normal. I edited a complete project on that $300 xeon e5 workstation not too long ago, and it exported the same 4 minute project that my Mac Pro took ~10 minutes for in just 1 minute. In Audition I literally had 0 export time, even on a fairly complicated project. My best advice: shop around and avoid Macs for professional work. There is so much bang for your buck elsewhere.

Definitely true as well. It's really unfortunate that Apple no longer makes cutting edge hardware like they did. Best advise is shop around... if you can break dependence on Macs you can get some kickass stuff for a hell of a lot cheaper. I've separated myself from Mac only products like Final Cut as it's too risky to get locked into Macs especially when... they don't make any real professional gear anymore. Don't take my post as a death sentence to the 4,1/5,1 it's still got a lot of life! But don't make a 10 year plan dependent on it. If are a professional and you do seriously want to continue using the 4,1/5,1 stock up on parts and possibly a complete spare computer.

This seems a little off topic but these problems really do suck I've experienced this with my 1,1s. I've lost 2 Mac Pro 1,1s in the last year just to PSU Caps. With more machines losing WIFI and other related problems. This generally happens with all computers, not just 1,1s.

Best bang for buck is in off lease workstations on eBay. I've seen T5500s the equivalent to the Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 go for $200 with dual CPUs (Not like Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 doesn't require whole new tray but just a riser card.) while that's just as bad as the Macs performance wise it does show the "Apple Tax" that you surely pay on this stuff. If you're not dependent on Macs seriously consider buying a quality PC or Hackintosh. Off lease gear can be found at seriously tempting prices just know what you're getting. As long as you read the description you'll be fine.

 

[Neodym]

Once machines hit legacy, Apple generally drops them.

They probably forgot about that rule when they decided to drop their whole desktop line (except iMac) years ago ...

 

[Jayson A]

They're just old and inherently with older machines you experience A LOT of problems. While I love my Mac Pros too, I don't use them as my main workstations anymore. They're great machines for the short to mid term but as a long term work horse machine I think not. Fully upgradable doesn't change the fact that it's going towards fully obsolesce.

In the next few years 4,1/5,1s will begin experience the "worn out" period. The caps, wiring, traces and others will begin to show their age. Sure, you could fix it... but how long do you want to drop money into it? They're remarkable machines and at the moment flawless in OSX, giving you OSX simplicity. As soon as official support drops however, you get into the arena of really complicated maintenance even worse so than Windows. Summarizing, they're getting old and they'll only go so far. Therefore making a long term recommendation bad.

While you may be using yours for a typical home use I'll assume you like most of us using it for professional usage. Apple hasn't released jack while HP and Dell have been regularly releasing and offer insane amounts of customization at a reasonable cost. You can buy something that that can destroy even the most upgraded Mac Pro 4,1/5,1 still at a reasonable price. A lot of people here have bought those in order to stay competitive in the film/video industry... they just can't handle the dynamics of 4k footage. They just aren't competitive now, the general time frame is 2-3 years for a new professional machine.

It's unfortunate that Apple will kill support, but it's inevitable. If your insistent on real Apple macs only then this is your best bet. A well built high end dual socket Hackintosh is possible and doable. I've included an example build from 2015... you probably could upgrade it. If you're fully satisfied by your 4,1/5,1 then stick with it. If you, like me, desire more performance, you can build a reasonable Hackintosh. While the 5,1 is pretty easy right now to run the latest OS, when official support is dropped it would be just as tough as a Hackintosh to maintain. I hope you like this build... it's what I built.

Lian Li PC-A71F-B Case $209
Supermicro X10DAX WS Mobo $440
Xeon E5-2698v3 2.3GHz 16 core x 2 $6498
Dual GeForce GTX 780 $1500
Crucial ECC 64GB PC4-2133 4 x 16GB $785
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB x 2 $678
EVGA 1300W PSU $195
TOTALS: $10305

You would probably want to upgrade this. Even something at half of this price would still crush the 12 core Mac Pro.

That's not really true. My Mac Pro 1,1 never gave me any serious problems. The only issues it has ever had were there from the beginning. In fact, I think it's a better machine than when I got it. I've loaded it up with RAM, upgraded to a decent graphics card and it runs like a top. The only block is not being able to upgrade it past El Capitan.