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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
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Well, well, well...it's been quite some time since I've posted here. Last time I was here, I was the faithful and loyal owner of a 2019 Mac Pro and a studio full of Apple only. It was maxed out in every aspect and I swore by it. You wouldn't catch me dead with a non Apple product. Everyone here that was around in the beforetimes knows my entire studio runs on Apple. What that used to look like...

Michael Simpson Jr. puget system 7.jpg

But then I had to do this, and the studio got upgraded...

Michael Simpson Jr. puget system 1.PNGMichael Simpson Jr. puget system 2.PNGMichael Simpson Jr. puget system 3.PNGMichael Simpson Jr. puget system 4.jpg

And what that looks like now...

Michael Simpson Jr. puget system 5.jpg

The upstairs studio is still powered by my M2 Pro Mac Mini...

Michael Simpson Jr. puget system 6.JPG

...still rocking the dual apple monitors downstairs but...no world should exist where someone like me ends up with something like this.

Apple is dropping a serious ball.

...but are they??

I can't help but have this sneaking suspicion that Apple is heavily up to something. They've cancelled the Extreme version of 3 separate generations of M series chips so far...and while they may still be releasing the M4 Extreme "as reports have released saying they've cancelled, but logically that would be an M5 extreme if they did this late in the game"...I do NOT think they were ever working on an M4 Extreme in the first place.

They're not stupid...all of this is meticulously chewed over, and while they definitely make some errors in judgement from the perspective of the faithful power users, they also are the most powerful and wealthiest company on earth for reasons of the masses and creating mostly for them.

That said...there is only ONE reason to keep the 2019 Mac Pro chassis, and that is expandability...but not the current version of expandability.

I still believe Apple is working on an entirely separate brand new category Apple Silicon chip just for the Mac Pro. And my theory is that they are trying to put two of their technologies together. One would be a heavily modified version of the M series chips. Now this version would be far larger, and it would likely be open ended and run on some type of slot system which brings me to the next technology. I think they are likely creating a slot card system that would allow for personal GPU expansion. I could see them creating something that was your primary chip, as they already have the fastest CPU on earth...but that draws from the expanded GPU cards whenever needed "Unreal, C4D, Maya, Octane, Redshift, Arnold, V Ray, Houdini, Ai, etc...". These GPU cards would be custom chips that compete directly with the likes of Nvidia GPUs, much smaller, and not held back by wattage regulation. That's the thing about the M series chips...they are purposely nerfed to keep down power consumption, which is the right play, for the masses...but not for us...

I'm currently mocking up what I think that could look like, but that is the only thing I can come up with as to why people that are not Apple keep saying we will see an Extreme chip and then the same people that said that cancel the chip for them LOL. Apple hasn't said a single word about any of that stuff for a reason, and I think the reason is because people have been assuming that's what they've been working on, but in reality, it's been this. Their own version of GPU expansion. They've been working on their own version of everything else, so why then logically would they not have been working on their own version of GPU expansion all this time? The Mac Studio is more than enough for 90% of public consumers. Outside of studios, hobbyists, indie artists, bigger freelancers, and wealthy folks that like to be on the edge of tech, the Mac Studio maxed out is perfectly all that is needed for Apple to please the world and make bank...

...so then WHY are they still bothering all this time with a Mac Pro...unless they know something that we don't? The Mac Pro, more than anything, is meant to be the cornerstone of showing off what they can do. It's meant to be a show piece. It's supposed to be the "can't innovate my @$$" response to that continued annual question. Nobody expects them to sell these more than the other systems...most people will never be able to afford them. But they are absolutely meant to exist. Because Apple needs to let the world know who they are and what they can do.

This is very likely correct. I think I'm right...but then again, i'm also a dreamer, and this could just as easily be the ramblings of a man who simply doesn't want to let the Apple that could've been go. I don't know which path ends up actually being correct, but I'm sure you can guess which one my fingers are crossed for.
 
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  • Welcome back...!
  • So, Mn Extreme...
  • Chiplets-based...?
  • ASi GPU cards, no display output, target hardware for compute/render tasks...
  • ASi Neural Engine cards also available; also target hardware for compute/inference tasks...
  • Mn Extreme Mac Pro Cube, the Personal Workstation for the rest of us...
  • ;^p
 
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Thank you my friend :)

Yep, this sounds about right. I just simply don't see what else could be happening. I refuse to believe Apple isn't up to SOMETHING...remember when we all started getting sick of their intel offerings and NOBODY HAD A CLUE that Apple Silicon was even a thing and the wham-o that that was, I really do believe that's why they have been literally RADIO SILENT about it all...literally any and every bit of info we've heard about this thing has been from leakers or theorists...not a single bit of information on it has come from Apple themselves. That's very much for a reason, and it's not cuz they're just twiddling their thumbs. They are deep in the thick of it...
 
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Thank you my friend :)

Yep, this sounds about right. I just simply don't see what else could be happening. I refuse to believe Apple isn't up to SOMETHING...remember when we all started getting sick of their intel offerings and NOBODY HAD A CLUE that Apple Silicon was even a thing and the wham-o that that was, I really do believe that's why they have been literally RADIO SILENT about it all...literally any and every bit of info we've heard about this thing has been from leakers or theorists...not a single bit of information on it has come from Apple themselves. That's very much for a reason, and it's not cuz they're just twiddling their thumbs. They are deep in the thick of it...

Apple is more likely to be working on surgically implantable medical tech, than they are to be working on a workstation. If a Macbook can't do it, their path is likely that you rent performance on Apple's cloud.

There's no smoke, because there's no fire.
 
Hey Matt :) I miss you calling all my ideas ridiculous :p

However, I'm positive this one will end up happening. After decades of having a product that demonstrates the pinnacle of their prowess, you truly think they wouldn't have a flagship product anymore? It doesn't even sound right.
Apple is more likely to be working on surgically implantable medical tech, than they are to be working on a workstation. If a Macbook can't do it, their path is likely that you rent performance on Apple's cloud.

There's no smoke, because there's no fire.
 
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Welcome back!

I’ve posted before that it would be cool to see a future Mac Pro that uses daughter cards like back in the day so you can swap out older SOC for a newer one, and some of the rumours are pointing along those lines (more like configurable SOCs at purchase for either more CPU cores or GPU). TSMC’s next process should facilitate this, which could be the missing ingredient for the Mac Pro.

I think the Mac Pro will continue as long as Apple needs Ultra or more powerful chips for their cloud servers, as it will make them more cost effective.
 
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Welcome back!

I’ve posted before that it would be cool to see a future Mac Pro that uses daughter cards like back in the day so you can swap out older SOC for a newer one, and some of the rumours are pointing along those lines (more like configurable SOCs at purchase for either more CPU cores or GPU). TSMC’s next process should facilitate this, which could be the missing ingredient for the Mac Pro.

I think the Mac Pro will continue as long as Apple needs Ultra or more powerful chips for their cloud servers, as it will make them more cost effective.
Thanks :)

And you make a damn good point, they will ALWAYS need to increase GPU for their cloud servers, as well as TSMC's next process facilitating the daughter card theory.

And...quite frankly, the chassis is just too damn cool of a design to throw away LOL. Bottom line, there's ZERO chance in my opinion that they aren't working on something incredible, and this is the only way I can see it getting done. The M4 Ultra is already competing directly with an RTX 3090, so if we manage to get 4 of those suckers running in the system, "and Lord help me, 8 of them!", at that point we are in the 3x RTX 4090 range, and frankly, while it doesn't match the 5090's, I can say that would be more than enough moving forward. And since they're hot swappable, people won't have to purchase an entire new chassis every damn time a new Mac Pro releases lol.
 
Hey Matt :) I miss you calling all my ideas ridiculous :p

However, I'm positive this one will end up happening. After decades of having a product that demonstrates the pinnacle of their prowess, you truly think they wouldn't have a flagship product anymore? It doesn't even sound right.

Why would you think Apple would see a workstation as meeting the definition of the "pinnacle" of their prowess? I'm not having a go at you or anything, I just don't believe Apple values anything a workstation could do or demonstrate as being what they want to be known for, or be the best at.

*edit* Apple is far more likely to see a 40" iPad drafting table as demonstrating the pinnacle of their progress, than an in any way upgradable workstation.

If it can't be done on a laptop or a MacMini, or an iPad, Apple isn't interested it being able to be done on a workstation. They won't even make a VR headset as a peripheral that can be powered by a Mac, despite having all the parts in place to do such a thing. The Mac isn't a prestige device for Apple, it's a vaguely embarrassing reminder that iPadOS isn't good enough yet to make applications for their platforms.
 
Why would you think Apple would see a workstation as meeting the definition of the "pinnacle" of their prowess? I'm not having a go at you or anything, I just don't believe Apple values anything a workstation could do or demonstrate as being what they want to be known for, or be the best at.

*edit* Apple is far more likely to see a 40" iPad drafting table as demonstrating the pinnacle of their progress, than an in any way upgradable workstation.

If it can't be done on a laptop or a MacMini, or an iPad, Apple isn't interested it being able to be done on a workstation. They won't even make a VR headset as a peripheral that can be powered by a Mac, despite having all the parts in place to do such a thing. The Mac isn't a prestige device for Apple, it's a vaguely embarrassing reminder that iPadOS isn't good enough yet to make applications for their platforms.
Why have they EVER made Mac Pros? They've NEVER been a profitable venture. Each Mac Pro has always been responsible for roughly 2% - 5% of their profits. They have literally zero reason to ever make them. Even the infamous original cheese grater barely scratched their profits. The only reason they make that thing is to show what they can actually do.
 
Why have they EVER made Mac Pros? They've NEVER been a profitable venture. Each Mac Pro has always been responsible for roughly 2% - 5% of their profits. They have literally zero reason to ever make them. Even the infamous original cheese grater barely scratched their profits. The only reason they make that thing is to show what they can actually do.

Because they were necessary for a set of tasks that could not be done on any other machine. The Mac Pro was always the machine that could drive more displays than anything else, could host more ram than anything else, could have have better graphics processing than anything else, etc.

That isn't the case with Apple Silicon, and it's unlikely to change, because Apple doesn't want any functional stratification in the Mac. The 2023 Mac Pro is just a Studio with an obligation to QA internally hosted PCI cards.

Apple's trajectory isn't a big powerful workstation that does everything, it's putting low powered computing into every object, and making them all clients of Apple's integration cloud (which is going to go spectacularly wrong, becaue the EU is gearing up to dictate open access and replacability of Apple's proprietary bits on a feature by feature basis in all Apple's OSes).
 
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That Puget system is brute force!

Very nice spec.

I don't know what Apple is planning but with the two machines I have, I don't see any need to replace them right away as they do the job well. I'm fairly sure whatever they are replaced with won't be Apple because I need to have at least one of them that can run native Windows. Virtual machine solutions are not an option.
 
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Thanks :)

And you make a damn good point, they will ALWAYS need to increase GPU for their cloud servers, as well as TSMC's next process facilitating the daughter card theory.

And...quite frankly, the chassis is just too damn cool of a design to throw away LOL. Bottom line, there's ZERO chance in my opinion that they aren't working on something incredible, and this is the only way I can see it getting done. The M4 Ultra is already competing directly with an RTX 3090, so if we manage to get 4 of those suckers running in the system, "and Lord help me, 8 of them!", at that point we are in the 3x RTX 4090 range, and frankly, while it doesn't match the 5090's, I can say that would be more than enough moving forward. And since they're hot swappable, people won't have to purchase an entire new chassis every damn time a new Mac Pro releases lol.
Just to clarify, it's LIKE a daughter card, but for the SOCs, so maybe like a "daughter chip"...

My hope was that we'd have them upgradeable post-purchase, but I don't think Apple would move that way as that works against their interests. All the old CPU upgrade kits were made by third parties who got their hands on Motorola G3s and G4s, cutting Apple out.

Hopefully those who need greater GPU grunt will be able to spec out a more GPU heavy version of an Ultra chip and those that need more CPU could do the same. Not sure how economically feasible it would be though...
 
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Because they were necessary for a set of tasks that could not be done on any other machine. The Mac Pro was always the machine that could drive more displays than anything else, could host more ram than anything else, could have have better graphics processing than anything else, etc.

That isn't the case with Apple Silicon, and it's unlikely to change, because Apple doesn't want any functional stratification in the Mac. The 2023 Mac Pro is just a Studio with an obligation to QA internally hosted PCI cards.

Apple's trajectory isn't a big powerful workstation that does everything, it's putting low powered computing into every object, and making them all clients of Apple's integration cloud (which is going to go spectacularly wrong, becaue the EU is gearing up to dictate open access and replacability of Apple's proprietary bits on a feature by feature basis in all Apple's OSes).
You could be right...but i'm holding out for you being wrong. I won't let you steal this dream from me, especially because it makes sense to me. You haven't said anything that doesn't allow the most valuable company on earth to create another "can't innovate my ass" moment.
 
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That Puget system is brute force!

Very nice spec.

I don't know what Apple is planning but with the two machines I have, I don't see any need to replace them right away as they do the job well. I'm fairly sure whatever they are replaced with won't be Apple because I need to have at least one of them that can run native Windows. Virtual machine solutions are not an option.
Thanks :) Yeah, Anyone who remembers me back during the 2019 Mac Pro days, I swore and died by it and refused to believe it would need to be replaced, but here we are LOL. The Puget config I own does literally everything I could possibly need. I just need a Mac that does it at some point to quench that thirst and scratch that itch of uniformity. It just doesn't feel right acclimating to a PC for any part of my creative throughput lololol.

And YEP THAT PART. Virtual machine solutions are simply not an option, and I can see a world where the Mac Pro runs native windows considering everything else I believe it will be able to do and since we need it for pro work, perhaps that is also a bit of a push for them to do that :) HAPPY NEW YEAR :)
 
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Just to clarify, it's LIKE a daughter card, but for the SOCs, so maybe like a "daughter chip"...

My hope was that we'd have them upgradeable post-purchase, but I don't think Apple would move that way as that works against their interests. All the old CPU upgrade kits were made by third parties who got their hands on Motorola G3s and G4s, cutting Apple out.

Hopefully those who need greater GPU grunt will be able to spec out a more GPU heavy version of an Ultra chip and those that need more CPU could do the same. Not sure how economically feasible it would be though...
It's tough to imagine them going against their financial interests in their current form, but Tim is on his way out the door in the next couple years and perhaps a crackpot innovator the likes of classic Jobs is locked and loaded and willing to come out swinging with some big ideas!
 
You could be right...but i'm holding out for you being wrong. I won't let you steal this dream from me, especially because it makes sense to me. You haven't said anything that doesn't allow the most valuable company on earth to create another "can't innovate my ass" moment.
Hey you have your dreams :)

Though I’d note their last “ass” moment was a self-destructing piece of junk that went nowhere, and had no legacy, except as one of the worst computers ever made, by any company.
 
Hey you have your dreams :)

Though I’d note their last “ass” moment was a self-destructing piece of junk that went nowhere, and had no legacy, except as one of the worst computers ever made, by any company.
LMFAO!!!! Fair enough...that said, it feels like they are deserving of some REDEMPTION in that department...and this could be it! :)
 
  • Mac Pro Cube Personal Workstation
  • 8"x8"x8"
  • M6 Extreme (2nm/N2X)
  • 32-core CPU (24P/8E)
  • 512-core GPU (w/hardware ray-tracing)
  • 128-core Neural Engine
  • 960GB ECC LPDDR5X RAM
  • 2.16TB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 16TB SSD (Four @ 4TB NAND blades)
  • Thunderbolt 5
  • USB 4
  • WiFi 7
  • Bluetooth 6
  • 420W PSU
  • $19,999
 
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After decades of having a product that demonstrates the pinnacle of their prowess, you truly think they wouldn't have a flagship product anymore? It doesn't even sound right.

The Mac Pro never 'demonstrated the pinnacle of their prowess'. The cMP had fine industrial design, but in all other respects was a typical Xeon workstation, using Intel parts. It was a Dell / HP / Lenovo in a nice aluminium case, running macOS. It was hardly the last word in workstation performance; I don't think they even offered Nvidia GPUs after about 2009. They clearly wanted to exit the workstation market around 2010, and only brought back the tower in 2019 after trying to fob pro users off with a small appliance and an iMac in the meantime.

The 2019 was a tour de force, sure. Though even that used Intel as people increasingly moved to AMD's Threadripper, still didn't support Nvidia GPUs, and was shipped with the knowledge that a move to ARM was happening 6 months later. Then, as with the 2013 Mac Pro and the 2017 iMac Pro, received no updates and was essentially discontinued after one generation. MPX went nowhere, and Apple lost all interest in supporting newer GPU generations once Apple Silicon was announced.

The M2 Ultra Mac Pro is a total joke, with zero effort put in. Like the first generation MBA, MBP and mini it reuses the chassis of the prior Intel model, for continuity. But architecturally, it's just a Studio with whatever spare PCIe lanes they could scrounge up PLX'd out to a load of slots.

Objectively, the Mac Pro looks like a product they've been hoping to discontinue for a very long time. If the Extreme were truly something they were interested in, it would have come out with the M1 / M2. What would be the point of waiting 5 years? By that point, customers such as yourself will have long moved to Windows.

The Extreme was always fan fiction. With PCIe GPUs off the menu, a 2x Ultra was the only logical option people could speculate on. But given 2x RTX 5090s would still obliterate it for 3D work, at much lower cost, what would be the point?
 
The M4 Ultra is already competing directly with an RTX 3090, so if we manage to get 4 of those suckers running in the system, "and Lord help me, 8 of them!", at that point we are in the 3x RTX 4090 range, and frankly, while it doesn't match the 5090's, I can say that would be more than enough moving forward.

I assume you meant M4 Max? How much do you think Apple would charge for a Mac Pro with 8x M4 Max? And why would anyone buy one over a PC with e.g. 3x RTX 5090's, for much less? So they can use macOS? I mean, it's nice, but not much different to Windows when in 3D apps all day.

The Mac isn't a prestige device for Apple, it's a vaguely embarrassing reminder that iPadOS isn't good enough yet to make applications for their platforms.

Sick burn. I guess to an accountant's eye, macOS looks like a loser compared to iOS.
 
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whatever the apple silicon cpu, we want to be able to add nvidia gpus.

Or any GPU from AMD or Nvidia. But it won't happen. Suggestions/requests to that effect just hit a brick wall at Apple. And on enthusiast forums, people say it's not Apple restricting this, but the GPU manufacturers, then the GPU manufacturers like AMD point fingers at Apple, so it just goes in circles.

The Extreme was always fan fiction. With PCIe GPUs off the menu, a 2x Ultra was the only logical option people could speculate on. But given 2x RTX 5090s would still obliterate it for 3D work, at much lower cost, what would be the point?


But those 2x RTX 5090s aren't efficient. Even though the Apple solution might be obliterated, it's "efficient". I'm sure you've read those kinds of comments before.

Doesn't really bother me, I'm just interested in performance/speed/reliability. I suppose others doing work also probably care about how quickly the machine does the task it is given.

I've been very happy with the 2019 Mac Pros I have because in both Windows and MacOS you can just keep throwing more and more at them and they just chew through it without bother. I've never even had the cooling fans crank up on them. That's expected given they are both high spec machines. One was upgraded to 2.5ghz 28 core by me, the other was that way to start with.

And that CPU upgrade was simplicity. Far from the stories of doom and gloom, it was easy to do and the machine is beautifully designed to make working on it super easy.
 
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Or any GPU from AMD or Nvidia. But it won't happen. Suggestions/requests to that effect just hit a brick wall at Apple. And on enthusiast forums, people say it's not Apple restricting this, but the GPU manufacturers, then the GPU manufacturers like AMD point fingers at Apple, so it just goes in circles.

It's ultimately an argument over who would pay for driver development. AMD / Nvidia aren't going to go to the hassle of writing macOS drivers - and keeping up with the annual OS changes - for the tiny number of GPUs they'd sell to 2019 Mac Pro owners. Especially as Intel macOS is on the verge of retirement - in 6 months, WWDC may well confirm this year's release as the last for Intel. Apple Silicon doesn't support PCIe GPUs at all, so when Intel macOS dies, all that work would be lost.

On the other side, Apple sure as hell won't pay for development, either. They want to move 100% to Apple Silicon ASAP, so hardly want to extend the life of 2019 Mac Pros another few years. Apple will be hoping the M4 Ultra will finally be sufficient to get most 2019 users to jump to AS.
 
But those 2x RTX 5090s aren't efficient. Even though the Apple solution might be obliterated, it's "efficient". I'm sure you've read those kinds of comments before.

Prius, Ferrari etc.

Doesn't really bother me, I'm just interested in performance/speed/reliability. I suppose others doing work also probably care about how quickly the machine does the task it is given.

All things being equal, power efficiency is a desirable trait. But not valuable enough to a large, under-desk workstation to spend thousands more on, forego future expansion etc.

I've been very happy with the 2019 Mac Pros I have because in both Windows and MacOS you can just keep throwing more and more at them and they just chew through it without bother. I've never even had the cooling fans crank up on them. That's expected given they are both high spec machines. One was upgraded to 2.5ghz 28 core by me, the other was that way to start with.

There you go. And I'm sure a 4nm 50-series GPU would be a lot more power efficient than a 5 year old AMD MPX card.

And that CPU upgrade was simplicity. Far from the stories of doom and gloom, it was easy to do and the machine is beautifully designed to make working on it super easy.

Yes. The appeal of an expandable tower is not lost on higher-end users. it's just not something that really fits in with Apple's processor architecture or business model.
 
There you go. And I'm sure a 4nm 50-series GPU would be a lot more power efficient than a 5 year old AMD MPX card.

I have a large solar power system so it’s not an issue. The replacement machines will probably have NVidia GPUs and will run Windows.

macOS is nice to use but my work can be done on Windows. I don’t fit in with the Apple business model. I’m sure others will move over the same and help Apple with its transition. Mac pro users are a tiny number and they can do just fine without these customers.
 
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