Mac Pro needs improvement

[janey]

I think I can build a better computer with 3K then the Mac Pro.

My gaming PC was less than 1/3 the price of the lowest possible end Mac Pro...even with edu/ADC discounts what..a year ago?

It still has a 7300gt. It has 4gb of ram. It has half a terabyte of storage space and has two 16x dvd burners. 700w psu with overkill case, a64 x2 3800+. Pretty sweet. Not nearly as nice as a c2d, but it's cheap, and it has the same graphics card and way more RAM and hard drive space than a Mac Pro.

This is a great opportunity for apple to make the gfx support in their computers not pathetic and not expensive, but..

 

[iW00t]

All this talk about the heatsink is silly.

It doesn't matter. All FBDIMMs running at the same clock frequency pretty much give off the same heat be it in a Mac Pro or a Dell. If the heat sink attached is good enough to dissipitate it, it is fine!

 

[Tangerine]

All this talk about the heatsink is silly.

It doesn't matter. All FBDIMMs running at the same clock frequency pretty much give off the same heat be it in a Mac Pro or a Dell. If the heat sink attached is good enough to dissipitate it, it is fine!

I care what I put in my Mac Pro because it is not a Dell

 

[cube]

The Dell Precisions are a faster system overall, with support for SAS, better display adapter choice, yada yada. Same with the equivalents from HP, Fujitsu Siemens, etc etc. Once everyone else gets 3Ghz Octos it'll actually be the slowest system of it's class out there.

The Dell is worse because it has only one x16 slot and the two x8 slots are wired as x4.

With the Mac Pro, at least you can put two X1900, one at x16 and one at x8.
You cannot put three at x8,x8,x4 because of power consumption.
And four wouldn't fit for lack of space.

 

[janey]

I care what I put in my Mac Pro because it is not a Dell

Except for the case, branding, and certain parts, it might as well be a dell.

 

[Pressure]

Not really. I still think it's cheaper if you build your own Computer. Computer parts and processors is not that expensive anymore. You just need to know where to shop. The Mac Pro come with a crappy Graphic Card, upgrading to ATI X1900 making the machine already at 3K. Adding more Ram easily make it even more expensive. I think I can build a better computer with 3K then the Mac Pro.

Let us see a breakdown then.

Xeon 2.66Ghz (Woodcrest) sells for $685 per processor. That is $1370.
Intel 5000P workstation motherboard for $449.99.
2x512MB FB-DIMMs @ $68.99 = $137.98
250GB SATA hard disk $69.99
X1900XT for $249.99
16x dual layer DVD burner $38.99

That amounts to $2316.94 (from Newegg, not sure if taxes are included).

From there you need a case, power supply that can handle the load, keyboard, mouse, a copy of Windows (XP or Vista) and various other software.

The same build from Apple amounts to $2748 without education discount or anything.

I know which one I would be going for...

 

[janey]

That amounts to $2316.94 (from Newegg, not sure if taxes are included)....From there you need a case, power supply that can handle the load, keyboard, mouse, a copy of Windows (XP or Vista) and various other software....The same build from Apple amounts to $2748 without education discount or anything.

Nobody said you needed to run Windows.

Adding taxes+shipping is not equal as Apple doesn't technically include all that till the end, just like Newegg.

Lastly, a case...$100...a good PSU..$1-200 (rebates, yay!)...keyboard and mouse- $30. XP pro is pretty cheap...throw that in there $100-150, assume OEM/system builder...they're roughly the same price in the end.

 

[Tangerine]

Well I thought mine was more Expensive because before Apple sell the ATI Card separately for a lot more. My Mac Pro 2.6Ghz cost around $2,700 with tax. Then I buy the ATI X1900 separately, which go for $399.99 at that time. So my Mac Pro actually ended up costing me $3,100. If you know where to buy your stuff though, you ended up with a powerful machine that cost less then the Mac Pro. But you need good hookup. New Egg is not the only cheap vendor out there. Unlike Apple, PC have a lot more choices.

 

[cube]

I think 3 double-wide graphics cards at x16,x16,x8 fit here:

http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=1530&l1=3&l2=136&l3=486&l4=0

A bit wimpy on the memory, though.

Now AMD needs to hurry up with their quad-cores.

 

[janey]

New Egg is not the only cheap vendor out there.

Newegg is vastly superior to many out there.

If you ever get the chance to deal with Newegg customer support, you will know why.

 

[Pressure]

Nobody said you needed to run Windows.

Adding taxes+shipping is not equal as Apple doesn't technically include all that till the end, just like Newegg.

Lastly, a case...$100...a good PSU..$1-200 (rebates, yay!)...keyboard and mouse- $30. XP pro is pretty cheap...throw that in there $100-150, assume OEM/system builder...they're roughly the same price in the end.

To put it simple, it may have equal power to a Mac Pro but not the same finesse. Remember that the Mac pro includes a bunch of software (which you may use or not). But even without that I still find it a bargain, alone for the build quality and superior looks compared to some generic workstation case.

I haven't really looked at workstation power supplies but they aren't cheap I know.

 

[janey]

I haven't really looked at workstation power supplies but they aren't cheap I know.

Oh *&#$ i forgot about that.

Depends on what you're doing I suppose.

 

[Sesshi]

The Dell is worse because it has only one x16 slot and the two x8 slots are wired as x4.

With the Mac Pro, at least you can put two X1900, one at x16 and one at x8.
You cannot put three at x8,x8,x4 because of power consumption.
And four wouldn't fit for lack of space.

Unfortunately not actually true. The 690 does support a 2 x x16 SLI configuration, as does my latest 690. And when even in the single-graphics riser configuration when you can specify the likes of the FX5500 or the 8800GTX without issues (with it acting in all applications), that argument is rendered moot.

 

[cube]

Yeah. I hadn't seen that model. But the 4x4 AMD is better.

 

[Sesshi]

There's always an irrelevant 'But' with Apple fanboys, isn't there

 

[cube]

I KNEW there was going to be some complaining about the 'but' sideline.

 

[sdhollman]

All i am asking is that they bump up the BTO options with at least a stock 320-500gig drive. Maybe through in the 7600 GT too.

 

[Sesshi]

Let us see a breakdown then.

Xeon 2.66Ghz (Woodcrest) sells for $685 per processor. That is $1370.
Intel 5000P workstation motherboard for $449.99.
2x512MB FB-DIMMs @ $68.99 = $137.98
250GB SATA hard disk $69.99
X1900XT for $249.99
16x dual layer DVD burner $38.99

That amounts to $2316.94 (from Newegg, not sure if taxes are included).

From there you need a case, power supply that can handle the load, keyboard, mouse, a copy of Windows (XP or Vista) and various other software.

The same build from Apple amounts to $2748 without education discount or anything.

I know which one I would be going for...

The thing is, you don't have to slavishly ape whatever Apple or Dell are doing in the pro workstation market if you're building yourself. I mean, I had a Core Extreme chip left over from some recent upgrades so I bought myself a 680i board, a 1KW PSU, some memory, an Antec P180 case, grabbed two of the 8800GTX's I also had left over.

Pricing it on the Apple UK website, I end up with £2,200 for a 2.66Ghz dual-socket quad-core, 2Gb, X1900XT, single 500Gb disk and dual superdrives.

On the other hand even had I'd bought all the parts for the above build, it would have come to £2,250 for an overclockable (and it is in this case) 2.66 base single-socket quad-core, 2Gb of high-speed RAM, 8800GTX's in SLI, a 500Gb RAID0 two-drive stripe, dual DL drives, and a case that makes a very fair stab at competing with machines in the class of the Mac Pro in terms of utility if not quite in terms of aesthetics, as well as Vista Ultimate.

Even if you don't tweak the system at all, the self-built system is going to whup the Mac Pro so hard in terms of all-purpose use, especially the half-entertainment, half-utility use that I suspect most of you put your home Pros to that it's not going to be funny.

I buy a machine like the Dell Precision 690 because I want specific things out of it, and it's not put in a general-purpose use situation. The problem with the Pro > iMac gap is that you don't have a machine like the one I've built above which would be a lot more suitable for I would say the majority of power home users who may be looking at a Pro, or have purchased one already. I have an option from Dell in terms of a premium home machine in the form of the XPS 710 H2C and I own a couple. Those machines (and my new builds) are what I do my general all-purpose home computer noodling on, not the workstations which have far more focused tasks.

 

[miniConvert]

I think the Mac Pro is pretty much perfect. The interior of the case is just stunning, and so well engineered for adding extra drives and RAM. The case design makes for amazing airflow and those huge fans are whisper quiet - it's only really the X1900XT's fan that makes a racket when it spins up. I love the way the case suspends itself off the floor - stops it sucking up loads of dust from the carpet like all my Dell's do.

Of course different people will have different requirements that fall outside of what Apple has been trying to provide with the Mac Pro (affordable, stylish, yet still workstation class). In the end, though, having some other manufacturer's workstation means not having OS X - and I think that, for the vast majority of Mac users, not having OS X is an instant dealbreaker.

If I could improve anything on the Mac Pro it would only be the selection of graphics cards.

I've got to hand it to Apple, two years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of transitioning my company over to Mac's and OS X. Today, here we are, wall to wall Apple's and all the more productive for using OS X. Our CS3 Web Premium licences arrive on Monday... kicking out Rosetta will be like buying new hardware all over again!

 

[Pressure]

The thing is, you don't have to slavishly ape whatever Apple or Dell are doing in the pro workstation market if you're building yourself. I mean, I had a Core Extreme chip left over from some recent upgrades so I bought myself a 680i board, a 1KW PSU, some memory, an Antec P180 case, grabbed two of the 8800GTX's I also had left over.

Pricing it on the Apple UK website, I end up with £2,200 for a 2.66Ghz dual-socket quad-core, 2Gb, X1900XT, single 500Gb disk and dual superdrives.

On the other hand even had I'd bought all the parts for the above build, it would have come to £2,250 for an overclockable (and it is in this case) 2.66 base single-socket quad-core, 2Gb of high-speed RAM, 8800GTX's in SLI, a 500Gb RAID0 two-drive stripe, dual DL drives, and a case that makes a very fair stab at competing with machines in the class of the Mac Pro in terms of utility if not quite in terms of aesthetics, as well as Vista Ultimate.

Even if you don't tweak the system at all, the self-built system is going to whup the Mac Pro so hard in terms of all-purpose use, especially the half-entertainment, half-utility use that I suspect most of you put your home Pros to that it's not going to be funny.

I buy a machine like the Dell Precision 690 because I want specific things out of it, and it's not put in a general-purpose use situation. The problem with the Pro > iMac gap is that you don't have a machine like the one I've built above which would be a lot more suitable for I would say the majority of power home users who may be looking at a Pro, or have purchased one already. I have an option from Dell in terms of a premium home machine in the form of the XPS 710 H2C and I own a couple. Those machines (and my new builds) are what I do my general all-purpose home computer noodling on, not the workstations which have far more focused tasks.

Certainly but we are doing an Apples vs Apples comparison and not an Apples to Oranges.

Of course you could build a custom system based around a Kentsfield that will do great against the Mac Pro, both price-wise and performance-wise.