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Mac Pro Refresh "b" Possibilities?
- Thread starter iBighouse
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I really wonder how realistic it is to expect nVidia options in future revisions.
It's no mystery that Apple is pushing OpenCL hard and would like to see CUDA die out. But then how hard might nVidia be lobbying Apple to offer Quadro options in future Mac Pros?
It's no mystery that Apple is pushing OpenCL hard and would like to see CUDA die out. But then how hard might nVidia be lobbying Apple to offer Quadro options in future Mac Pros?
I don't think it's unrealistic, but AMD also a good option on the table in the new Fire Pro that would probably be way easier to implement.
If not for that I don't feel like Maxwell would be out of the question.
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It's been mentioned the W9100 would be workable as well, possibly with a bit of down clocking.
I do wonder why they don't have ECC. Might have to do with the below.
Edit: Christ, 16GB graphics cards. I hate being the guy that's all "back in the day!" but man, my PowerMac 7100 had 66MHz, 16MB of RAM and a whopping 2MB of graphics memory. Just crazy.
Well, AMD is clearly giving Apple a hell of a deal on these custom cards. But I imagine Apple was able to get that from them in part because Nvidia has such a strangehold on many graphics solutions (really the biggest ray of sunshine for AMD in these past few years has been the PS4/XB1 and... the Mac Pros.) So I dunno how the politics and deal-making would shake out. It seems fairly likely that there won't exist a big market for selling aftermarket cards in the short term, since people will be sticking with their new machine's options for now, and obviously it's a custom configuration used by, what, 10,000 Mac Pro users? But a Nvidia card as a BTO option?
Either way Apple has forged a bold path forward, but they've got to do their own legwork to support it--I think implementing CrossFire should be high on their list of priorities if they're going to keep offering the drivers themselves, or else they could partner with AMD and decentralize that aspect of the OS management...
As for CUDA, I dunno where it'll come out compared to OpenCL. Open certainly doesn't always win, but all I know is that for my renders I get comparable performance, so there's no point paying for those CUDA cores--and the few thing that are CUDA-driven in my potential workflow (After Effect's Ray Tracing) are so slow even on CUDA cards that it's worthless to use (especially now that you can use faster GPU-accelerated plugins like Element or just go into Cinema4D.)
Yeah I imagine we'll get slightly downclocked versions of the chips, which considering the fact that you get such a good deal on them and that even under full load the Mac Pro doesn't suffer performance-wise seems an acceptable tradeoff to me.
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Not particularly. What Apple has is closer to not quite as stratospherically marked up non-"Pro" versions slapped with a thin "Pro graphics" veneer. The mark-ups on the Pro (both AMD and Nvidia ) are so high as to make Apple's mark-up margins appear relatively modest.
ECC flipped off, VRAM skimmed off ( D300 and D500 options), and substantively down clocked to point basically have more Radeon 7xxxx offerings more so than the Wx0000 class. The ECC is done in software so need to have more VRAM for the parity storage. So again in the same boat as clipping off the VRAM to get the prices down.
Apple is getting a discount but also selling less too.
Not so much stranglehold as unwillingness to work with others. I suppose can chalk that up to "not feeling the need". But they had no stranglehold in ARM GPU market and exhibited the exact same behavior until very recently.
The GPU is embedded just like iMac , MBP Pro. There isn't going to be a "alternative" embedded GPU option here any more than there has been one for the the other Mac products with embedded GPUs. ( I sure there will be a hack or two but not a real market. )
Apple doesn't do the low level drivers now. So there isn't any real change there from previous. If it not interested in the increased complexity before ... really not much has changed at all. I was a bit surprised they wired up the Crossfire for Windows ( as those drivers have that largely baked in already).
Doesn't win quickly. Long term, unless pick up a variety of implementers/license, the greater diversity by a broader ecosystem will plow through some inflection point of technology where the "cash cow" will move slower.
However, in the Mac Pro context it is far more about Nvidia quitting on OpenCL more so than CUDA "hate" by Apple. Once Nvidia gets on track of "OpenCL has to loose for CUDA to win" then that is were they hare going to have problems in Apple design bake offs. Nvidia have more the stubs for their OpenCL 1.2 library yet? Standard only came out in late 2011. Two years later and have stub calls.
Similarly there is nothing wrong with AMD pushing Mantle but if they start slacking on OpenGL and DirectX they are going to run into problems.
Funny, Microsoft usually gets things right about the third iteration as well.
Going to be room on Apple's limited cards for 16GB of VRAM (without going to high density, high priced packages )? If start shaving VRAM and clock.... what's big difference between that and a W8100? Apple is going to be looking to pay neither 9100 or 8100 prices on the components.
Apple isn't pressed to put 16GB of "regular" RAM into the entry Mac Pro. If they roll out the next entry version with 12GB RAM, it is going to look funny when there is a video card with more in the line up.
Workstation cards are workstation cards. Pros pay a hell of a lot more for incremental gains; that's the nature of business and it's true of every professional segment I'm aware of (For instance with professional camcorders Canon sells a 'pro' wrapped version of its consumer Vixia line for hundreds more when it's primarily the same camera is a swapped body.)
If you just use OS X then it makes no difference. You aren't getting what someone pays $6400 for to get a pair of W9000s when you get D700s. You are getting what you'd get if Apple had gone with Radeon 7970s instead. Apple didn't need to use workstation cards in the Mac Pro for years because they provided the support, certification and optimised the drivers. They've done it to make the Mac Pro more attractive after redesigning it and in negotiating for workstation drivers to be used it has led AMD to have to provide decent drivers for Windows - a benefit for them with their tiny marketshare in the workstation card business.
There were maybe one or two posts a month on here complaining Apple didn't offer workstation cards, no one really cared and nothing has changed other than the label.
Yes there is some advantage if you were going to run one of the handful of 3D applications that get better performance from Quadro/FirePro drivers in Windows. Dual GPUs provide minimal benefits and the drivers aren't as good as "real" workstation cards, but a pair of D700s can out pace a single W7000 or Quadro K5000 for some applications, but those single cards can also out perform the two Mac ones in crossfire due to drivers and of course they aren't the very top tier ones. Much better than consumer cards, but its a niche selling point really.
So basically you have always got from Apple what you got from AMD/NVIDIA to a degree - certification, support, optimised drivers. Just the drivers were never highly tuned for the few 3D viewport using applications on OS X.
I like Apple's choice for GPUs to be honest, and think they provide a decent solution, but not a performance alternative for those who the higher end workstation cards are intended/marketed for.
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If a vendor slaps a 200% markup on something and then buyer gets to pay a 150% markup that isn't a 'deal'. The sky high markup is partially just so that the sales folks can take some off and spin the whole thing as a bargain deal.
The problem with Apple's Dx00 series offerings is that incremental gains are dropped in quite a few cases also. ECC VRAM? Apparently stripped (by AMD for market segmentation or Apple to claw out more margin or both) . Clock speeds chopped. VRAM capacity chopped in 2 of the 3 cards. Warranty stripped down to mainstream levels. The OS X drivers haven't been "above average" stability/quality. Ironically, the "Pro" feature that isn't stripped or stepped on is the Windows drivers.
Get less and pay less isn't a "deal". If get less then should actually pay less also.
Apple is standing these cards up next to the circus side show "fat lady" in order to look thin. Essentially same as last several years, where the official Mac cards are more expensive over the general market. Paying more, but not particularly on what the Pro typically differentiate on.
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