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You know for certain that the Mac Pro is coming out next year? How?

Err because perhaps actually read macrumors news here.

" ... Apple PR has reached out and clarified that only the Mac Pro is expected to be next updated in 2013. ... "
https://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/1...c-pro-and-imac-designs-likely-coming-in-2013/

Referencing the emails are largely immaterial and a contrived diversion at this point of time. Apple PR made "on the record" comments to the press. That is about as good as you are going to get.


If the Mac Pro doesn't come out, who do you hold accountable? Who do you go up to and say "But you promised me"?

Few if any companies are going to technically promise a future product. They may say they hope to have future products. Are working on future products. Most "roadmaps" are typically have fine and a preamble that these are "forward looking projections.... ". Especially if projecting more than 6-12 months into the future. The world changes over time and it may or may not make sense keep the same plan in a future context.

This whole notion that Apple is suppose to completely remove uncertainty for customers is complete BS. Apple doesn't have control over all the elements that impact plans.

That said there is enough traction in a PR disclosure to set some expectations. It will be extremely damaging to Apple's reputation at this point if they don't deliver a Mac Pro in 2013. Likewise there will be several ambulance chasing lawyers on their doorstep with clients who bet the whole farm on a 2013 Mac Pro and now want to cash in on Apple's $100B money pot.
 
Err because perhaps actually read macrumors news here.

" ... Apple PR has reached out and clarified that only the Mac Pro is expected to be next updated in 2013. ... "
https://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/1...c-pro-and-imac-designs-likely-coming-in-2013/

Referencing the emails are largely immaterial and a contrived diversion at this point of time. Apple PR made "on the record" comments to the press. That is about as good as you are going to get.

You are using sources with no names.
"Apple PR has reached out and clarified" But no name.
"Apple PR made "on the record" comments to the press." How can it be on the record when Apple PR won't say who is making the comments?

That is about as good as you are going to get
That is far from being good enough.
It is all rumor until the actual product comes out or Apple uses a real person with a real name to verify the statements.

It will be extremely damaging to Apple's reputation at this point if they don't deliver a Mac Pro in 2013.
It doesn't matter what I think but for me Apple's reputation has already been greatly damaged.
I will always maintain there was no good reason for not bringing out a Sandy Bridge Mac Pro this year.
To wait on a Mac Pro for 3 years is ludicrous
 
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Well after the whole mess Apple got into when they displayed a New iCon what the Retina MacBook Pro came out. They quickly retracted it and Time Cook said that next year would be a redisgn of the Mac Pro. There not going to discontinue it. The Mac Pro or at least mine is still more power full then the iMac and I have yet to do any upgrades to it yet and it's a base modle.

Also you don't have to buy the Apple monitor. You can get better and cheaper from other places.
 

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To those of you who are more familiar with thunderbolt expansion chassis than I, what kind of options do we currently have for running full size "enthusiast" video cards, such as the 5870 that I currently have in my Mac Pro?

There is huge mismatch between a card like the AMD 5870 and Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is capped in PCI-e data bandwidth at about x4 PCI-e lanes bandwidth. A 5870 is targeted for x8 to x16 PCI-e lanes worth of bandwidth.

Thunderbolt is not a magic solution for the x16 slots in a Mac Pro. It is basically giving the other Macs in the line up the equivalent of just one of the Mac Pro's smaller x4 slots. That's it.

While a subset of what the Mac Pro can do, there are a sizable number of things can do just that amount of coverage. Here is Sonnet's compatibility chart for their external PCI-e chasis:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html

There are "video" cards there but they are more so associated with capture.

Eventually I suspect an entry-mid level desktop card will show up. Something in the 50-90W range that those enclosures can handle ( up to a little over 100W), but is substantially faster than an intel HD3000 or HD4000. That's isn't and won't be the primary target for enclosures though.

If the desktop card is 70% faster than the embedded graphics and only take a 50% hit on the narrow PCI-e service through TB then 35% is still faster. A ~90W card with a relatively large VRAM store can actually turn in decent performance even when constrained to just x4 bandwidth constraints ( many apps have adaptive caching algorithms for dealing with cards with limited bandwidth ).

What won't fly is heavy OpenCL computations being offload to the GPGPU. Nor 3D workloads that are almost too large for the 5870 now that are likely to grow much computationally resource intensive over time.
 
There is huge mismatch between a card like the AMD 5870 and Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is capped in PCI-e data bandwidth at about x4 PCI-e lanes bandwidth. A 5870 is targeted for x8 to x16 PCI-e lanes worth of bandwidth.

Thunderbolt is not a magic solution for the x16 slots in a Mac Pro. It is basically giving the other Macs in the line up the equivalent of just one of the Mac Pro's smaller x4 slots. That's it.

While a subset of what the Mac Pro can do, there are a sizable number of things can do just that amount of coverage. Here is Sonnet's compatibility chart for their external PCI-e chasis:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html

There are "video" cards there but they are more so associated with capture.

Eventually I suspect an entry-mid level desktop card will show up. Something in the 50-90W range that those enclosures can handle ( up to a little over 100W), but is substantially faster than an intel HD3000 or HD4000. That's isn't and won't be the primary target for enclosures though.

If the desktop card is 70% faster than the embedded graphics and only take a 50% hit on the narrow PCI-e service through TB then 35% is still faster. A ~90W card with a relatively large VRAM store can actually turn in decent performance even when constrained to just x4 bandwidth constraints ( many apps have adaptive caching algorithms for dealing with cards with limited bandwidth ).

What won't fly is heavy OpenCL computations being offload to the GPGPU. Nor 3D workloads that are almost too large for the 5870 now that are likely to grow much computationally resource intensive over time.

Thanks for the clarification. Hm, so we have awhile before we could, for example, use a high end gaming card to achieve desktop level performance on a "docked" laptop (just using the term docked to clarify the machine is not really being used as a laptop at that point).

----------

I a not quite sure that technology delivers what we consumers need, but for sure marketing people make us believe that we need what thecnology delivers.

the filesystem is an example: are we 100%'sure that back in '80s we did really need folders? now Apple is slowly racing a generation of users that will never need the filesystem. Call it iOSification. Back in late '80s-early '90s, when I got my first Mac, coming from a PC with DOS, I created 4 folders in the documents folder and I gave them the name of the applications: Word, Excel, FileMaker, Paint. So basically what is happening now on the iPad: each appication has its own list of files... Of course then I learnt how to properly create folders and how to store documents, but now marketing people are telling me that the way to go is the one I used 20 years ago...

another example? Apple said "too much wires, all in one is the solution" and now? thunderbolt: you have a tiny thing on your desk and a whole bunch of wires under the desk.

gesture, is another thing: I tought that nothing could have ever beaten the trackball (Apple never explored this) and now my Kensington expert mouse no longer works with the cougar, so I have to buy the trackpad and get used to a device which is off set for a desktop use.

...

Ben

All good points, I have to agree with you here. Do you think the push for external thunderbolt chassis is what Apple had in mind, or is it just that the 3rd party hardware manufacturers like OWC saw a market and went for it?
 
There is huge mismatch between a card like the AMD 5870 and Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is capped in PCI-e data bandwidth at about x4 PCI-e lanes bandwidth. A 5870 is targeted for x8 to x16 PCI-e lanes worth of bandwidth.

Thunderbolt is not a magic solution for the x16 slots in a Mac Pro. It is basically giving the other Macs in the line up the equivalent of just one of the Mac Pro's smaller x4 slots. That's it.

While a subset of what the Mac Pro can do, there are a sizable number of things can do just that amount of coverage. Here is Sonnet's compatibility chart for their external PCI-e chasis:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html

There are "video" cards there but they are more so associated with capture.

Eventually I suspect an entry-mid level desktop card will show up. Something in the 50-90W range that those enclosures can handle ( up to a little over 100W), but is substantially faster than an intel HD3000 or HD4000. That's isn't and won't be the primary target for enclosures though.

If the desktop card is 70% faster than the embedded graphics and only take a 50% hit on the narrow PCI-e service through TB then 35% is still faster. A ~90W card with a relatively large VRAM store can actually turn in decent performance even when constrained to just x4 bandwidth constraints ( many apps have adaptive caching algorithms for dealing with cards with limited bandwidth ).

What won't fly is heavy OpenCL computations being offload to the GPGPU. Nor 3D workloads that are almost too large for the 5870 now that are likely to grow much computationally resource intensive over time.
We could split hairs over "compute intensive tasks", again, but we have been over that x4 PCIe 2.0 is "enough" for a flagship card in gaming.
 
.... use a high end gaming card to achieve desktop level performance on a "docked" laptop...

.... but we have been over that x4 PCIe 2.0 is "enough" for a flagship card in gaming.

High end, flagship, GPU cards are moot because it is unlikely anyone is going to produce an even remotely affordable enclosure that supports those kinds of TDP constraints ( e.g. 230-290W cards ).

Sonnet caps out at 150W. OWC's new entry only takes half length cards.

It won't be about "top end" gaming or "top end"

Gaming is actually a bad benchmark for top end GPU performance. That is because the vast majority of games tuned for substantially less than top end GPUs and performance. There are few if any games that minimally require a $400-500 card.

It is far easier and more bandwidth effective to leave the x16 slots and power supply in the same enclosure as the CPU(s). It is unlikely that Apple will be moving to separate those two into different containers. If look at the overall industry CPUs and GPUs are merging; not getting more distance. Going to greater distances is actually swimming upstream against Moorse's Law. It is an extremely dubious position to take.

From the low end the incremental improvements of the HD4000 , HD5000 , etc for Intel and the AMD GPUs make enclosures covering low end GPU targets weak also. It is only "life extension' across multiple GPU generations where an external GPU across TB may have some marginal traction.
 
So you didn't make up your own mind by actually using it?

No. I made up my mind by trusting the educated opinions of numerous Hollywood/NYC professionals, a few of whom I have had the good fortune to get personal advice from, and let them make up my mind for me. Their almost unanimous opinion was that this was the worst software release in Apple history. It was so bad after the negative reception that Apple gave out refunds. That says it all. If you don't believe it, Google terms like Final Cut X Professional Reaction etc.

Therefore, rather than suffer through the frustration and loss of time (which is money) dealing with FCX's shortcomings and changes, and blowing a few hundred dollars, I went back to an old standby that I can use very proficiently without conscious thought. If Apple releases some bizarre off the wall nontraditional Mac Pro in 2013 that is already two years behind the state of the art on the release date, I'll do the same thing, and go back to a Windows workstation, either from HP, or I'll build it myself.

PS - In direct response to your condescending retort, a wise man once said:

"The mark of a successful man is one who surrounds himself with even more successful men."

The same goes for opinions, so, yes, I do sometimes let others make decisions for me, especially when they clearly have greater expertise/experience than I do, which was the case with Final Cut.
 
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High end, flagship, GPU cards are moot because it is unlikely anyone is going to produce an even remotely affordable enclosure that supports those kinds of TDP constraints ( e.g. 230-290W cards ).

Sonnet caps out at 150W. OWC's new entry only takes half length cards.

It won't be about "top end" gaming or "top end"

Gaming is actually a bad benchmark for top end GPU performance. That is because the vast majority of games tuned for substantially less than top end GPUs and performance. There are few if any games that minimally require a $400-500 card.

It is far easier and more bandwidth effective to leave the x16 slots and power supply in the same enclosure as the CPU(s). It is unlikely that Apple will be moving to separate those two into different containers. If look at the overall industry CPUs and GPUs are merging; not getting more distance. Going to greater distances is actually swimming upstream against Moorse's Law. It is an extremely dubious position to take.

From the low end the incremental improvements of the HD4000 , HD5000 , etc for Intel and the AMD GPUs make enclosures covering low end GPU targets weak also. It is only "life extension' across multiple GPU generations where an external GPU across TB may have some marginal traction.
Well I am not going to argue the value of making an external enclosure capable of handling a full length (+10" card) and pushing +300W over having one internally. When did we get to discussing replacing internal PCIe with Thunderbolt? The last I read was "docked" laptop in a Mac Pro thread...

Still, every time a new flagship card comes to the market Tom's Hardware, HardOCP, and TechPowerUp! make their usual rounds to see if PCIe 2.0 x8/x8 for a dual GPU configuration is enough or are you really going to need more lanes/PCIe 3.0? It really helps when deciding if a mainstream platform chip is enough vs. high end desktop given the major limiting factor of PCIe lanes. The benchmarks are still games in those cases.

I happen to recall bring this up within the past year and you linking to actual compute benchmarks.
 
I did not want to make a new thread but Ivy Bridge-E is for 2013.

Except Apple isn't likely to use Ivy Bridge-E. More likely it will be EP which is penciled in for roughly the same time.

from around April.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/ivy-bri...--the-multi-socket-platform-heaven/15488.html

June
http://vr-zone.com/articles/high-en...intel-to-trade-tdp-for-performance/16047.html

couple weeks ago
http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2012/2012072301_Some_details_of_Ivy_Bridge-EP_and_-EN_Xeon_CPUs.html


The wildcard factor on that Ivy Bridge-E "roadmap" chart is Haswell. If Haswell slides at introduction ( as Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge have done previously) it questionable whether Intel pulls the Ivy Bridge EP/E forward to cover the gap and the end of 1st half 2013 or slides back (late Q3 / early Q4 2013) to open a gap for Haswell to slide into.
 
Well I am not going to argue the value of making an external enclosure capable of handling a full length (+10" card) and pushing +300W over having one internally. When did we get to discussing replacing internal PCIe with Thunderbolt? The last I read was "docked" laptop in a Mac Pro thread...

Still, every time a new flagship card comes to the market Tom's Hardware, HardOCP, and TechPowerUp! make their usual rounds to see if PCIe 2.0 x8/x8 for a dual GPU configuration is enough or are you really going to need more lanes/PCIe 3.0? It really helps when deciding if a mainstream platform chip is enough vs. high end desktop given the major limiting factor of PCIe lanes. The benchmarks are still games in those cases.

I happen to recall bring this up within the past year and you linking to actual compute benchmarks.

Because it's relevant to the conversation to talk about thunderbolt. If Apple discontinues the Mac Pro, we are talking about alternatives to the expandability and performance the Mac Pro currently provides.
 
Because it's relevant to the conversation to talk about thunderbolt. If Apple discontinues the Mac Pro, we are talking about alternatives to the expandability and performance the Mac Pro currently provides.

If Apple discontinues the Mac Pro it really isn't being motivated by Thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt primarily allows iMacs , mini , and laptops to compete against the generic "box with slots". The same space that some folks want to inject the mythical "xMac" into. This isn't the workstation class boxes, but the mainstream boxes.

If the "xMac" class boxes are shrinking the workstation market, that is the primary root cause. People are paying less for the largely "good enough" performance they provide.

If the workstation market ( far above average computation + above average I/O) market has matured to the point of relative stagnation, Apple will likely leave. That's largely because the customers are leaving. That that submarket shows below average growth that isn't where people are going.


There is deep misconception if position Thunderbolt as the threat to the Mac Pro. Maybe that is what drives some to say that it "required" to be included into the Mac Pro. As if absorbing it would "save" the Mac Pro. It really won't. Thunderbolt solves a problem that the Mac Pro class boxes don't have ( PCI-e expansion abilities and multiple monitor support ).

Neither is Thunderbolt "fast enough" for high speed interconnect in the same class as QPI/Hypertransport , RAM/VRAM transport , extremely large I/O transport ( Infiniband / 40-100GbE ). It is faster than most legacy perhiperal connections. But those are "outside the box to slower peripherals" connections, not core backbone/backpane connections.

There is a "nice to have" factor if the Mac Pro were to evolve to have embedded GPU and Thunderbolt. That would make that aspect homogenous between the Mac Pro and the rest of the Mac products. However, that is largely tangential to the Mac Pro being successful in its targeted price range at the targeted market. The targeted market tend to put a higher premium on performance and Thunderbolt does extremely little to differentiate there. It is fast but there are already a large number of fast solutions in the PCI-e card space.
 
There is huge mismatch between a card like the AMD 5870 and Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is capped in PCI-e data bandwidth at about x4 PCI-e lanes bandwidth. A 5870 is targeted for x8 to x16 PCI-e lanes worth of bandwidth.

Thunderbolt is not a magic solution for the x16 slots in a Mac Pro. It is basically giving the other Macs in the line up the equivalent of just one of the Mac Pro's smaller x4 slots. That's it.

While a subset of what the Mac Pro can do, there are a sizable number of things can do just that amount of coverage. Here is Sonnet's compatibility chart for their external PCI-e chasis:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.html

There are "video" cards there but they are more so associated with capture.

Eventually I suspect an entry-mid level desktop card will show up. Something in the 50-90W range that those enclosures can handle ( up to a little over 100W), but is substantially faster than an intel HD3000 or HD4000. That's isn't and won't be the primary target for enclosures though.

If the desktop card is 70% faster than the embedded graphics and only take a 50% hit on the narrow PCI-e service through TB then 35% is still faster. A ~90W card with a relatively large VRAM store can actually turn in decent performance even when constrained to just x4 bandwidth constraints ( many apps have adaptive caching algorithms for dealing with cards with limited bandwidth ).

What won't fly is heavy OpenCL computations being offload to the GPGPU. Nor 3D workloads that are almost too large for the 5870 now that are likely to grow much computationally resource intensive over time.

PCIe is fairly scalable right? I know such a product doesn't exist, but would it theoretically be possible to take the dual thunderbolt ports found on say the iMac or rMBP and make a PCIe x8 lane out of it? That should be sufficient for most high end cards if it's doable.

Power is another issue, but it can be solved.
 
PCIe is fairly scalable right? I know such a product doesn't exist, but would it theoretically be possible to take the dual thunderbolt ports found on say the iMac or rMBP and make a PCIe x8 lane out of it?

No. Thunderbolt does not scale with ports. The 10Gbs for PCI-e + 10Gb/s DisplayPort is all the overall throughput you get whether have 1 or 2 ports. More ports doesn't provide more throughput. In some corner case more throughput down different links in the chain if split the extremely large video traffic, but that is mostly accounting gimmickry. The overall network throughput doesn't get faster with computer in the middle of the chain as opposed to the at the very end.

Right now the thunderbolt controllers looks roughly like this:

x86 -- x4 PCIe <-> [ TB Controller ] <--> (1 or 2) TB ports ====== (1 or 2 ) TB ports <-> [TB controller ] <-> x4 PCIe in external device.


If sending PCI-e data traffic from outside to insider the computer you are choked by the x4 PCI-e lanes (on both sides) . That is theoretical max throughput. (don't even get that since there are switching and fat-tree topology network design issues in the controllers, but it is pretty close)

Two ports primarily allow you to more easily put the computer (or device) into the middle of a single chain. That's it.


To get 8 total lanes you could build a "dual bond" set up which would double the controllers and remote device over two separate cables. That's possible but is neither cost effective nor prudent use of the PCI-e lanes. ( Mainstream computers don't have an 'extra 4'. They barely have enough for the GPU and the TB controller. ) That traffic is passing through two different switches so not likely going to work well going to one card. Two x4 cards perhaps but not to one.

Going to a TB controller with 8 inputs runs into the same impoverished PCI-e lane budget roadblock on mainstream PCs. There are really only 24 ( or 28 in Xeon E3 case) to go around for everything that needs a lane (Ethernet , firewire , PCI slots , bluetooth , etc. )

The next version of Thunderbolt (circa 2014) will may pick up PCI-e v3.0 (**) so the bandwidth of the x4 will double. That's fine as long as the remote cards don't also double in their bandwidth requirements.

[** If mainstream CPU start providing x20 v3.0 links maybe. However, it once again will be a new standard highly constrained to the latest hardware designs. A better than average chance back to $50 cables for TB v2.0 also. ]
 
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At the risk of exposing my ignorance about how computers work, I think that the Mac Pro is not dead, but the Mac Pro as we know it may be.

As for there being a Mac Pro, Tim Cook said something wonderful is coming late 2013, or words to that effect. If the next iteration is just a bump in processor, then it is not something wonderful, just a speed bump.

I believe that I read some place that Steve Jobs pointed out that one of the reasons for Thunderbolt was how the bus acted as a throttle on the computer processing speed. Taking that at face value, then something wonderful would require removing that throttle. Now here is where my ignorance is going to show, but it would seem to me that to remove the throttle, there has to be a redesign of the system architecture to have more direct linkages between stored data and input devices with the processor and between the processor with output devices. It seems Thunderbolt accomplishes a lot of that with output, but while SATA and Thunderbolt do that with some input, I think everyone would agree that it could be better.

If that's true, then I would expect a serious redesign including the box. In any case, Tim Cook loses a lot of credibility if what is delivered is just incremental.
 
As for there being a Mac Pro, Tim Cook said something wonderful is coming late 2013, or words to that effect. If the next iteration is just a bump in processor, then it is not something wonderful, just a speed bump.

Apple execs throw around hyperbole like many folks drown french fries in ketchup. "Wonderful" is about a literally true as the iPad is "magical".

It will likely be a much better machine. At this point it would be pretty hard not to be. Especially for the single CPU package version which will jump at least two Intel architecture generations. (three if go goofy enough to wait for Ivy Bridge Xeon E5s).

Some kind of "revolutionary" expectation setting is extremely likely to be unmet.

I believe that I read some place that Steve Jobs pointed out that one of the reasons for Thunderbolt was how the bus acted as a throttle on the computer processing speed.

An iMac or Mini throttled to dealing with SSD over a Firewire link *is* throttled until that data is loaded into RAM off the drive. USB 2.0 even worse. That primarily means Firewire is relatively slow, not that Thunderbolt was the only answer.

Several rates here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates#Peripheral


USB 2.0 ___________ 480 Mbps
FW800 _____________ 786 Mbps
SATA II __________ 3,000 Mbps
SATA III _________ 6,000 Mbps
TB ______________ 10,000 Mbps
PCI-e v2 x4 ______ 16,000 Mbps
PCI-e v3 x16 _____ 126,000 Mbps
QPI (3.2GHz) _____ 205,000 Mbps

[ internal to the CPU data moves even faster than QPI ]

Notice we are not talking a one or two order of magnitude different here between the top and the bottom. It is more than that. The CPUs deal with bandwidth roughly 1,000 times faster than what USB 2.0 can deliver.

Removing that bottleneck where possible will improve things. You can already do that with a Mac Pro now.


It seems Thunderbolt accomplishes a lot of that with output, but while SATA and Thunderbolt do that with some input, I think everyone would agree that it could be better.

Thunderbolts primary improvement over SATA is that is required to behave well in hotplug environments and it provides power for smaller, limited external devices. eSATA can optionally conform to plug-and-play environments but is pragmatically much more stable if devices don't disappear. [ Thunderbolt isn't a free ride. The PCI-e drivers will need adjusting. ]

Thunderbolt has enough bandwidth to aggregate the traffic of one or more of the older, slower protocols onto one wire. In a relatively affordable connection (relative to the early Fiber Channel , 10GbE , or Inifiniband ).

If that's true, then I would expect a serious redesign including the box. In any case, Tim Cook loses a lot of credibility if what is delivered is just incremental.

Frankly, all of it is evolutionary. The only thing revolutionary is the hyperbole. Even the move to "walk away" is has been done.

There are several drivers for a new box but they have nothing to with TB interconnect.

1. "too big" and "too small". Too big for rack mount horizontally. There is some "double duty" that cancelling the XServe means the Mac Pro needs to fill that doesn't require radical changes. Too big when only using one (maybe two) PCI-e slots and need to hit price points close to he $2000 boundary. Could chuck the x4 slots and point folks at Thunderbolt to fill that need.

Too small when have dual E5's plugged in; out of 80 PCI-e lanes and only have 4 slots. That is a bit of a waste which boxes like the HP z840 and T7600 don't do ( e.g., can have 3 (z840) or 4 (T7600 ) x16 PCI-e v3 slots plus a couple of smaller ones ).

May need to find way to economically split into two boxes instead of one box that covers a broad range.


2. Top end GPUs run about 100-140 W higher than back in days when the original Mac Pro general chassis was conceived. The computation on the GPU side is at least as large if not larger than on the CPU side. GPGPU is making factor going forward.


3. Striped HDDs aren't necessary to get high I/O throughput on semi random data. In short, Flash based drives are a major factor going forward. Is there a deep need for four 3.5" sleds? Aren't many Mac Pro owners inserting a much higher percentage of 2.5" drives these days?
 
You're right. After the uproar in the pro vid user group forums across the Web when FCX was initially released, I went with Vegas Pro again. And I am quite happy with the 150 bucks or more per finished second it makes for me, thank you very much.

So what you are saying is you decided to switch not only editing software but operating systems and hardware because of what you read about the new editing software. The editing software that you weren't required to use since FCP 7 still works. Sorry but I'll have to call shenanigans on your tale.
 
Apple execs throw around hyperbole like many folks drown french fries in ketchup. "Wonderful" is about a literally true as the iPad is "magical".

It will likely be a much better machine. At this point it would be pretty hard not to be. Especially for the single CPU package version which will jump at least two Intel architecture generations. (three if go goofy enough to wait for Ivy Bridge Xeon E5s).

Some kind of "revolutionary" expectation setting is extremely likely to be unmet.

Understood, although I did note in the PR comments that it studiously avoided saying "New Mac Pro". My tea leaves suggest at least a change in the enclosure if not substantially more...I can see a modular "stackable" approach with a single CPU per box, for example.

An iMac or Mini throttled to dealing with SSD over a Firewire link *is* throttled until that data is loaded into RAM off the drive. USB 2.0 even worse. That primarily means Firewire is relatively slow, not that Thunderbolt was the only answer.

Several rates here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates#Peripheral


USB 2.0 ___________ 480 Mbps
FW800 _____________ 786 Mbps
FW1600 _____________ 1,573 Mbps
SATA II __________ 3,000 Mbps
FW3200 _____________ 3,146 Mbps
SATA III _________ 6,000 Mbps
TB ______________ 10,000 Mbps
PCI-e v2 x4 ______ 16,000 Mbps
PCI-e v3 x16 _____ 126,000 Mbps
QPI (3.2GHz) _____ 205,000 Mbps

[ internal to the CPU data moves even faster than QPI ]

Notice we are not talking a one or two order of magnitude different here between the top and the bottom. It is more than that. The CPUs deal with bandwidth roughly 1,000 times faster than what USB 2.0 can deliver.

I love this chart ... and I've taken the liberty to add two additional lines to it in red ... to illustrate other opportunities with Firewire that Apple has avoided pursuing (YMMV as to why) to improve external bandwidth.

Removing that bottleneck where possible will improve things. You can already do that with a Mac Pro now.

Sure, but there's still the bandwidth capability of the device at the far end of that connection to consider as another source of bottlenecks. For example, a single spinning 3.5" HDDs can't even yet saturate SATA2, so the perrenial bandwidth question is the "And Use It for What?". Sure, SSDs and RAID-0's are part of the answer, as are also the Professional Grade specialty devices too, but this simply drives further home the observation of how theese are non-mainstream customer requirements ... the recurring problem is that the status quo hardware is adequate for the mainstream and there's no obvious 'Killer App' out there in the wilderness that's needed for "Content Consumer" demographics to merit the additional expense to the manufacturer.


Thunderbolt has enough bandwidth to aggregate the traffic of one or more of the older, slower protocols onto one wire. In a relatively affordable connection (relative to the early Fiber Channel , 10GbE , or Inifiniband ).

Agreed.

...
3. Striped HDDs aren't necessary to get high I/O throughput on semi random data. In short, Flash based drives are a major factor going forward. Is there a deep need for four 3.5" sleds? Aren't many Mac Pro owners inserting a much higher percentage of 2.5" drives these days?

It comes down to the individual use cases. When I got my new Mac Pro, I filled up the three empty 3.5" internal bays with HDDs ... and added a OWC Accelsior SSD PCIe card (which doesn't lose a 3.5" bay) ... at the same time that I was pulling the 6GB OEM RAM to upgrade it to 24GB as my starting point. For my specific intended use, and since the Mac Pro still doesn't have TB, having ~3 more internal 3.5" HDD bays would have been convenient, since it would have allowed me to get rid of my current External RAID1's.

In thinking about how/where to go forward for my individual needs, I expect that a PCIe SATA card and an aftermarket bracket to add 4xSSDs internally is probably next, with that configuration to supercede a 4TB RAID0 data storage set in Bays 2&3. Doing this wouldn't be cheap (4TB worth of SSDs = $4K), but it would free up two bays to get my KISS internal TimeMachine backup off of the single point of failure risk of a single spindle to move it to at least a 3 disk RAID5, which would also double its storage capacity which is also already needed.


-hh
 
So what you are saying is you decided to switch not only editing software but operating systems and hardware because of what you read about the new editing software. The editing software that you weren't required to use since FCP 7 still works. Sorry but I'll have to call shenanigans on your tale.

Good lord people. I've been using computers since the TRS-80 at home and the PDP-11 in school. I didn't switch anything, well. except hardware. I got a iPhone, fell for the "halo effect," and over a period of a year and half, ditched my five or six Windows computers for Apples. With four drives in the Pro, and two more externals, I had gobs of room to keep all of my Windows apps, many of which I still must use because there are no OS X analogues. I've used Vegas since 3.0, so yes I kept on using it rather than switch to FCX. Ever hear of Boot Camp?

As for derbo's "exactly" witty response, you didn't grasp that quote about taking advantage of other's intelligence did you? If production houses that make millions a year say FCX on release was a piece of xxxx, I'll trust their judgement and stick with what works for me. Besides, it is seldom a good idea to go with 1.0, or a complete rewrite, of any application.

And...if Apple doesn't get off of their fat, smart (can't call them dumb, after all) rear and come up with a modern workstation, for the serious work, HP Z620/820, here I come.

Call it it a tale, call it shenanigans. My clients are happy, my lab runs efficiently, and my balance sheet looks better than ever. That, sir, is a reflection of making sound business decisions, like not jumping on FCX at first, and prepping to jump ship if Apple doesn't make good on their promises...and hard work.
 
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Understood, although I did note in the PR comments that it studiously avoided saying "New Mac Pro".

If Apple PR says there is a Mac Pro coming in 2013 is the "new" adjective necessary? If working on Mac Pro to be released next year it is inherently new since it is a future product.

]
My tea leaves suggest at least a change in the enclosure if not substantially more...I can see a modular "stackable" approach with a single CPU per box, for example.

It is more likely the changes will be to a marginally less modular Mac Pro rather than more. For example, an embedded GPU versus being able to remove all the GPUs from the machine.

The CPUs and GPUs won't migrate to different boxes. Modularity is far more likely to be more akin to the "external Superdrive" (as path already on for laptops and Mac mini). Perhaps extra Firewire , USB , and perhaps Ethernet as with TB dongles and TB Display. There are definately some candidates of built in peripheral sockets and peripherals themselves that may move to external boxes.

The components that need very high bandwidth interlink won't. (CPU, RAM, greater than x8 PCI-e slots, and GPU )


...to illustrate other opportunities with Firewire that Apple has avoided pursuing (YMMV as to why) to improve external bandwidth.

Why? Because no personal computer system vendor or mainstream peripheral maker is interested in using them. Especially not Intel who is pretty adamant against Firewire. (won't find more than FW400 support from them and that only because of the wide use on video cameras at one point. ). With less than 10% of the personal computer market Apple can't push FW (or Thunderbolt) up the hill by itself. Draft USB 3.0 killed off those two before they every got out of the gate.

Frankly, Apple "gave up" on Firewire long ago when they used holding back FW800 from the entry level Macs a market segmentation technique. That killed FW800 momentum ( which was already weak) which essentially nukes the follow ons.

Thunderbolt has a chance because technically it is Intel that is pushing it forward. If Intel puts the TB controller on several design reference boards, then it will catch on in the overall market. They have (at this point with Ivy Bridge designs) and it is growing.


For example, a single spinning 3.5" HDDs can't even yet saturate SATA2,

Actually, it is getting pretty close when drop to 2.5". It only works on large sequential files but the new 1TB velociraptor peaks around 200MB/s ( 1,600 Gb/s ). (http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_velociraptor_1tb_review) That means two in RAID 0 with everything aligned can ( 3,200 Gb/s > 3,000 Gb/s ) and that with four present many early SATA II controllers with bandwidth issues ( since the traffic consolidates into a single link eventually). That's one reason the new top end ones come with SATA III links.

3.5" aren't performance drives anymore. They are drifting to being almost elusively being the $/GB leaders with "reasonable" access times.


Sure, SSDs and RAID-0's are part of the answer, as are also the Professional Grade specialty devices too, but this simply drives further home the observation of how theese are non-mainstream customer requirements ...

No. One reason the relatively (compared to the rest of the Mac line up) CPU in the MBA 11" does reasonably well is because it is not hobbled by a small , slow HDD. The SSD storage basically equalizes the MBA 11" with the MBP 13" models on many metrics.

In the iPod and iOS space there is only one, largely comatose, HDD model right now. Again the success of the iPad/iPhone is in part because don't have seek latency hiccups that HDDs incur.

It would not be surprising if every Mac in the 2013 line up had a SSD on board, including the Mac Pro. ( if only as a cache accelerator to create a virtual Hybrid drive or as a OS/Apps drive. XServe had the latter long before it should up on other Macs. ). And yet another issue which should be driving a revision of the Mac Pro

Given Apple bought a SSD controller design company, it is likely that SSDs are more tightly aligned with long term strategic objectives than HDDs are. Sure they will be incomporated into ARM based SoC designs first, but it isn't like SSDs aren't displacing in Mac designs either.


In thinking about how/where to go forward for my individual needs, I expect that a PCIe SATA card and an aftermarket bracket to add 4xSSDs internally is probably next,

The aftermarket bracket is kind of thing that Apple will attack (e.g., like no need for 3rd party sleds in current model).

Likewise, a need for 3, 4, 8, or 12 'bulk storage' 3.5" drives is exactly the solution that Thunderbolt enables. Older, slower connections ( SATA II or SATA III ) in external boxes. That is far more likely to be directed at "modular" solutions than central core bandwidth tasks like connecting CPU and GPU.

A "snap on" , stackable enclosure with 4-5 bays for 3.5" drives makes much more sense. There are many existing server , storage systems , and even NAS boxes that have "expansion" boxes along these lines. It would likely be labeled "revolutionary" by Apple, but it already been done and has a proven to be effective.

Make it a HDD enclosure with a SuperDrive bay and could chuck both HDDs and ODDs out of the core Mac Pro box. Since the enclsure would likely include a SATA controllers effectively it would "look like" an internal ODD for those that "need" old Windows and App DVDs and CDs to see it as an "internal" drive.
 
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