A little off topic... Is it safe to assume that on a Hackintosh, there's no Chime/Bong at startup?
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Mac Pro vs. Hackintosh
- Thread starter adddictedtomac
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Since ever damn web site on the internet has been using them to compare things for the last 30 or so years anyways.
I have built and used 3 Hacks up to this point (typing this on one now) and here are my own 2 copper pieces:
I think there are really 3 types of Mac users when you get down to it. A large number of Mac (and other computer users for that matter) have never opened up their machine. They don't care about upgradeability. They don't expand anything. If and when they outgrow their machine, they buy a new one and give the old one to the kids. Apple makes a perfect machine for them - the iMac
The second group consists of super-demanding professionals for whom time is money, their machine is crucial to their work, and the debates about threading and number of cores and ECC vs regular RAM matter. Apple makes a machine for you too - the Mac Pro.
The rest of us have a dilemma. We don't need a (minimum ) $2500 workstation. We don't want an iMac with hobbled graphics and limited expandability that is welded to the back of a monitor we might not even need. Apple has forgotten us.
A Hack offers some really nice points. A really nice one can be put together for around $800-1000. It will have more memory, a larger HD/SSD, a faster processor, and better graphics than a top of the line $2800 iMac. When one of those components is outgrown, it can be replaced easily. It will cost 1/3 to 1/4 of a Mac Pro whose advanced capabilities I don't need. I built a machine for my daughter that cost under $400 and vastly outperforms the Mac Mini I might have otherwise bought her. And there is a definite feeling of accomplishment seeing that OS X boot screen on a box you built yourself. The Hackintosh community, as has been pointed out, is really incredibly helpful.
Hacks have their downsides. You have to piece out and assemble them. You won't appreciate the elegance of an Apple tower interior until you muck around in an off the shelf PC case. None of my Hacks have been smooth installations. All had problems that took time, patience, and the wisdom of the crowd to fix. Every OS upgrade is done with a certain amount of fear and trembling. If it breaks, it isn't going down the Apple Store to be fixed. Some stuff just doesn't work right and never will (my main machine won't sleep without crashing). You do lose some of the legendary Mac "it just works" simplicity. All of my babies are kind of ugly too.
But unless you spent $3000 on your machine, mine is faster and has better graphics. Mine cost under $1000. When my machine starts to feel slow, I'll pop down to MicroCenter and buy a new processor, MB, and graphics card, and I'll have an essentially new machine for $500-600. It's not a bad tradeoff.
For some people.
If you NEED a Mac Pro, then you need a Mac Pro. I'll be the last one to argue with you. If you need that mythical machine that slots between the iMac and the Mac Pro, and you don't mind getting some electrons on your hands, a Hack might be for you.
I think there are really 3 types of Mac users when you get down to it. A large number of Mac (and other computer users for that matter) have never opened up their machine. They don't care about upgradeability. They don't expand anything. If and when they outgrow their machine, they buy a new one and give the old one to the kids. Apple makes a perfect machine for them - the iMac
The second group consists of super-demanding professionals for whom time is money, their machine is crucial to their work, and the debates about threading and number of cores and ECC vs regular RAM matter. Apple makes a machine for you too - the Mac Pro.
The rest of us have a dilemma. We don't need a (minimum ) $2500 workstation. We don't want an iMac with hobbled graphics and limited expandability that is welded to the back of a monitor we might not even need. Apple has forgotten us.
A Hack offers some really nice points. A really nice one can be put together for around $800-1000. It will have more memory, a larger HD/SSD, a faster processor, and better graphics than a top of the line $2800 iMac. When one of those components is outgrown, it can be replaced easily. It will cost 1/3 to 1/4 of a Mac Pro whose advanced capabilities I don't need. I built a machine for my daughter that cost under $400 and vastly outperforms the Mac Mini I might have otherwise bought her. And there is a definite feeling of accomplishment seeing that OS X boot screen on a box you built yourself. The Hackintosh community, as has been pointed out, is really incredibly helpful.
Hacks have their downsides. You have to piece out and assemble them. You won't appreciate the elegance of an Apple tower interior until you muck around in an off the shelf PC case. None of my Hacks have been smooth installations. All had problems that took time, patience, and the wisdom of the crowd to fix. Every OS upgrade is done with a certain amount of fear and trembling. If it breaks, it isn't going down the Apple Store to be fixed. Some stuff just doesn't work right and never will (my main machine won't sleep without crashing). You do lose some of the legendary Mac "it just works" simplicity. All of my babies are kind of ugly too.
But unless you spent $3000 on your machine, mine is faster and has better graphics. Mine cost under $1000. When my machine starts to feel slow, I'll pop down to MicroCenter and buy a new processor, MB, and graphics card, and I'll have an essentially new machine for $500-600. It's not a bad tradeoff.
For some people.
If you NEED a Mac Pro, then you need a Mac Pro. I'll be the last one to argue with you. If you need that mythical machine that slots between the iMac and the Mac Pro, and you don't mind getting some electrons on your hands, a Hack might be for you.
You want me to believe that you can have more of the top of the line iMac(let me remind you: 32gb ddr3 1600mhz RAM, 3,5ghz i7 CPU, GeForce 780M, 1tb hd drive, motherboard, a beautiful 27" high resolution display, thunderbolt, mouse, keybord, OSX and all the assembly/shipping cost)for 800/1000$??
Please let me know where to buy that..
Certainly not at Apple that is for sure that is a $2999 machine there when I add all the options to it in the store and that assumes you meant spinning hard drive not SSD...
Top spec iMac equivalent hack:
i7 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007RMH1WY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£219
32 GB RAM http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-BLS4C8G3D1609ES2LX0BEU-1600MHz-Ballistix-Memory/dp/B00A14ZUJ6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1381798160&sr=8-3&keywords=32+Gb+ram+1600
£201 (Apple charge £480 for the same memory)
2GB GTX660ti http://www.amazon.co.uk/GeForce-DirectCU-Graphics-Express-Surround/dp/B009KZ4DK4/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381800289&sr=1-2&keywords=GTX660ti
£195 (Same grunt as a GTX780m: http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+780M&id=2536)
Gigabyte Motherboard http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008TZXRB2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£103 (or add £50 if you want Thunderbolt ports)
1 TB HDD http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B004IZN3YI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£71
Case http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B004ZH18G4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£31 (or you could spend more for pretty)
Wifi card http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006PMX964/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£27
750w PSU http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Modular-Certified/dp/B00ALK3QRS/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381799284&sr=1-1&keywords=CXM+750
£70
DVD burner http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-SATA-Retail-Writer-Bezels/dp/B009DF373A/ref=pd_cp_computers_3
£19
CPU Cooler: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B00A0HZMGA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£63 (watercooling for extra quietness)
Nice High Res 27" Screen:http://www.amazon.co.uk/PB278Q-Widescreen-Multimedia-2560x1440-DisplayPort/dp/B009668YPM/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381799018&sr=1-1&keywords=2560+x+1440+27%22+IPS
£444
Mountain Lion OS X download
£14
Total: £1457 plus the labour to build it.
But wait, I forgot to max out the iMac with a Fusion drive and put in an SSD, a keyboard and mouse to finish off the hack:
SSD system drive: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B006EKJ8UI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£170
Apple keyboard: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B002TUSWU4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£65
Apple Mouse: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B002NX0M8C/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£43
Total: £1734
The equivalent iMac top spec machine is £2773. Over a grand to stick it all behind the screen.
I know which I went for and I already upgraded it with an extra SSD and a better GFX card inside a year.
You pay yer money take yer choice.
I know there is a market for both, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
The iMac is a great mass market device but at a price. Folks love them and I know why.
i7 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007RMH1WY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£219
32 GB RAM http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-BLS4C8G3D1609ES2LX0BEU-1600MHz-Ballistix-Memory/dp/B00A14ZUJ6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1381798160&sr=8-3&keywords=32+Gb+ram+1600
£201 (Apple charge £480 for the same memory)
2GB GTX660ti http://www.amazon.co.uk/GeForce-DirectCU-Graphics-Express-Surround/dp/B009KZ4DK4/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381800289&sr=1-2&keywords=GTX660ti
£195 (Same grunt as a GTX780m: http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+780M&id=2536)
Gigabyte Motherboard http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008TZXRB2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£103 (or add £50 if you want Thunderbolt ports)
1 TB HDD http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B004IZN3YI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£71
Case http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B004ZH18G4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£31 (or you could spend more for pretty)
Wifi card http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006PMX964/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£27
750w PSU http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Modular-Certified/dp/B00ALK3QRS/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381799284&sr=1-1&keywords=CXM+750
£70
DVD burner http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-SATA-Retail-Writer-Bezels/dp/B009DF373A/ref=pd_cp_computers_3
£19
CPU Cooler: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B00A0HZMGA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£63 (watercooling for extra quietness)
Nice High Res 27" Screen:http://www.amazon.co.uk/PB278Q-Widescreen-Multimedia-2560x1440-DisplayPort/dp/B009668YPM/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381799018&sr=1-1&keywords=2560+x+1440+27%22+IPS
£444
Mountain Lion OS X download
£14
Total: £1457 plus the labour to build it.
But wait, I forgot to max out the iMac with a Fusion drive and put in an SSD, a keyboard and mouse to finish off the hack:
SSD system drive: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B006EKJ8UI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£170
Apple keyboard: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B002TUSWU4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£65
Apple Mouse: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B002NX0M8C/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£43
Total: £1734
The equivalent iMac top spec machine is £2773. Over a grand to stick it all behind the screen.
I know which I went for and I already upgraded it with an extra SSD and a better GFX card inside a year.
You pay yer money take yer choice.
I know there is a market for both, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
The iMac is a great mass market device but at a price. Folks love them and I know why.
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why an i7? isn't that a xeon whats inside a mac pro? ...an i7 is a toy dude, not for pros...
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Well he did say iMac in his post and not Mac Pro, and it was a response to a guy saying you couldn't build a cheaper but faster hackintosh iMac equivalent.
The Ivybridge i7 in the previous generation iMac is more powerful than the 4 core Xeon W3530 Apple were using in their Mac Pro range from 2010:
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Xeon-W3530-vs-Intel-Core-i7-3770K
Please do not equate a label or a brand to a reflection of performance.
The "Toy" CPU hands the previous generation's "Pro" CPU its @rse in the real world.
If you have to have a Xeon CPU the cost of it and the motherboard goes up considerably.
Motherboard: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008UG5LTG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£253
E5 Xeon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008HQKVD0/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£288
If you want a top spec Xeon the price skyrockets: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-Xeon-E5-2690-LGA2011-Retail/dp/B007H4JSZK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381876842&sr=8-1&keywords=Xeon+E5-2690
£1,723
There is an i7 which keeps up with that one too:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-Hyper-Threading-Technology-Virtualization-Directed/dp/B00EONTZIC/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381868120&sr=1-1&keywords=Intel+Core+i7+4930K
£445
Don't believe me? http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Xeon-E5-2690-vs-Intel-Core-i7-4930K
Is it really worth it just for the "Pro" label? Performance wise no, for the ego trip possibly. Unless you really do need all the workstation grunt you can muster, a decent i7 rig will run all you want, at a speed you can accept, for much much cheaper. I love my Mac Pro but my Hack works faster simply because I built it out of newer parts.
On the subject of resale, I have owned 3 iMacs, 1 eMac and a Mac Pro. I have sold one of them (the eMac) the rest will be in use till they die and if I can ressurect them they will be in use till they die again. Ditto the Hack.
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No Bong! sound at all on Hackintosh.
Not surprising since it Bong!s on Macs well before the OS loads. But I wonder where the sound actually lives.
Is it on a chip on the Apple Motherboard?
No. The "Core i7" line up that Intel puts out is muddled. Part of it. (generally x7xx or xYxx were Y < 7 ) is the desktop/laptop mainstream architecture implementation and x9xx is based of the same baseline as the single socket Xeon implementaiton (at this point Xeon E5 1600 ). The sockets are different. All the core i7 aren't the same.
Since he is trying to clone an Mini or iMac ( what comparing to) , the mainstream variant is appropriate.
Just like there are multiple groups of folks. costs matter more than performance and getting a complete system. Going to more affordable components is always going to play more to that crowd.
Ironically, it is Apple themselves who have torpedoed one of the best reasons for going with a Xeon. Dual CPUs with QPI and dual memory controllers and available PCIE lanes. All Bye Bye in a week or 3.
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If ever audited for software compliance also up a creek, since running OS X unlicensed. Hacks as home basement frankstein project that is low risk. Hacks as the foundation of a business; not quite as low. Post a busted compliance audit probably would have saved nothing at all in costs.
Not really. Intel Dekstop/Mobile designs are going to be stuck at 4 x86 cores for at least a couple of steps into the future.
To get the "ultimate" core count... sure using two CPU packages helps get there faster sooner. But single package but more than four and is still Xeon E5 (or bigger) baseline designs only.
The transistor budget in the mainstream designs is being thrown at GPUs infrastructure. So far for Xeon E5 is still throwing transistors at the x86 core count war. E5 2600 v2 caps out at 12. E5 2600 v3 probably will cap out at 14.
Mainstream Desktop will be capped at 4 because attempting to wipe out the AMD/Nvidia low end discrete GPU business is a primary Intel objective. More transistors allocated to the Intel GPU makes that all the more likely. (e.g., just look at newest entry iMac. Discrete GPU .... gone. Intel eDRAM present. )
This isn't Apple backing themselves into a corner at all. Intel needs expansion. CPU+GPU+eDRAM is the easiest path to keep their fabs at nearly full capacity. Beating on that isn't backing into a corner. So the primary way to crank x86 core count is still Xeon E5 in the workstation market ( or buy into the E5 1600 variant that is a subset of Core i7).
And there are 4 memory controllers in E5 v2. Adding more is more a pin count issue more so than single package if they want to go that way once get adjusted to DDR4.
gpzjock already pieced out Hackintosh prices so I won't bother.
In no way, shape, or form will I suggest that a Hack is as NICE of a machine as an off the rack Apple. Mine is ugly. It took time to configure to get it working properly, and some things still don't work exactly right. It would have little resale value (although I have owned something like 20 Macs and Apple laptops over the years and sold exactly 2 of them). I would never suggest one to my mom or a non computer savvy friend. I would think twice before building one for a friend if they asked me to, as I have enough issues as the local Mac tech support guy without having to mess around with boot.plist options and kext management.
There is another advantage to building a Hack - you can customize it to your heart's content. Want an iMac? Think the 27" monitor is too big? Then you better hope that a GT 750M with 1GB of memory is enough graphics for you, because that's the best you can do in the 21.5" model. You'll have dozens of off the shelf options for a Hack. Again, the vast majority of iMac purchasers won't care about this, which is why a Hack will always be niche machine in a niche market.
There is an excellent chance that a Hackintosh is not and will never be the right machine for YOU. Maybe you need the workstation performance of a Mac Pro, or the plug and go simplicity and elegance of an iMac. Maybe you are philosophically opposed to using one or can't or don't want to be bothered with building or configuring one. Great. Apple has you covered. But a Hackintosh is not a "toy", nor does it fail to be "a real computer". If you don't want to use one, then don't. There's no need to be insulting. But it will be cheaper and more configurable than anything Apple makes.
I've never say it was a toy and I don't think soo. I was just asking how to put a top notch iMac equivalent for 800/1000$ like you have suggested
iMac equivalents vary in price according to which iMac you choose.
If you want a 21" iMac equivalent the budget is much easier to minimise.
Remove the following from my original list, 27" screen, i7 CPU, RAM, GPU, PSU, case and Mobo and replace with:
21" IPS Monitor: http://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-22EA53VQ-21-5-inch-Monitor/dp/B00BWOJ35G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381930877&sr=8-1&keywords=21%22+IPS
£104
i5 CPU: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-Graphics-BX80646I54570-Generation-Technology/dp/B00CV3E3WK/ref=sr_1_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1381931895&sr=1-3&keywords=i5+4670
£150
MiniATX Case with PSU: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B001H0BA24/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£88 (tiny enclosure to hide behind the screen)
8 GB RAM: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/product/B004CRSM4I/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£60
miniATX Motherboard: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00D8WH636/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=tonymacx86-21
£92 (wifi & bluetooth built in)
Giving a total cost of £597 for a base spec iMac Apple want £1150 for, yet again the cost difference is very significant, in this case only 52% of the Apple iMac price by comparison to 62% of the top spec one on the original list.
So this gives us an iMac equivalent Hack for £597 to £1734 (iMac price £1150 to £2773) depending on how much performance you actually need. The point is made by the significant difference in price compared to the all in one product which the vast majority of OS X users will choose over building their own and they have every right to do so.
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I came up with the following, all at Microcenter.com
Intel Core i5 4670k 3.4GHz processor $200
Gigabyte GA Z87X UD3H ATX Motherboard $130
Thermaltake 600W power supply $50
Corsair Vengeance 8GB DDR3-1600 memory $95
Toshiba 1TB 7200 RPM SATA HD $58
TP-LINK PCI Express wireless card $30
EVGA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB graphics card $190
Diablotek ATX case $40
LG 24" LED monitor $150
Total cost = less than $950. That's a pretty darned good machine, specced for under $1000 as requested. I'd personally put a 128 GB SSD ($75) and up the memory to 16 GB (an extra $80). That makes $1100. In my case, I already had a pretty nice monitor so I didn't even need to spend that. Every single component can be upgraded/swapped out if something better comes along.
The closest I come come to that on a BTO iMac was $1900, and that iMac had a smaller (though probably better) screen, significantly inferior graphics, and a slightly slower processor. You do get superior design, better quality, a warranty, and you don't have to build it (although I enjoy building the machines, so this isn't a ding as far as I'm concerned.). You get a really nice screen that you might not actually need. You're also stuck with everything that's in the machine with the exception of the memory, so when that new graphics card you like comes out, tough. That lack of upgradability is a big deal for me, and the main reason that I have never owned an iMac.
The Apple product, with those plusses and minuses, might be worth an extra $800 to you. It wasn't to me. I used the savings and bought a new iPad.
The above Hackintosh is a great machine, and would be more than enough for anyone but a truly demanding Pro user. It might not be for you, but you can't deny that really nice little computer can be had on the cheap this way.
Intel Core i5 4670k 3.4GHz processor $200
Gigabyte GA Z87X UD3H ATX Motherboard $130
Thermaltake 600W power supply $50
Corsair Vengeance 8GB DDR3-1600 memory $95
Toshiba 1TB 7200 RPM SATA HD $58
TP-LINK PCI Express wireless card $30
EVGA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB graphics card $190
Diablotek ATX case $40
LG 24" LED monitor $150
Total cost = less than $950. That's a pretty darned good machine, specced for under $1000 as requested. I'd personally put a 128 GB SSD ($75) and up the memory to 16 GB (an extra $80). That makes $1100. In my case, I already had a pretty nice monitor so I didn't even need to spend that. Every single component can be upgraded/swapped out if something better comes along.
The closest I come come to that on a BTO iMac was $1900, and that iMac had a smaller (though probably better) screen, significantly inferior graphics, and a slightly slower processor. You do get superior design, better quality, a warranty, and you don't have to build it (although I enjoy building the machines, so this isn't a ding as far as I'm concerned.). You get a really nice screen that you might not actually need. You're also stuck with everything that's in the machine with the exception of the memory, so when that new graphics card you like comes out, tough. That lack of upgradability is a big deal for me, and the main reason that I have never owned an iMac.
The Apple product, with those plusses and minuses, might be worth an extra $800 to you. It wasn't to me. I used the savings and bought a new iPad.
The above Hackintosh is a great machine, and would be more than enough for anyone but a truly demanding Pro user. It might not be for you, but you can't deny that really nice little computer can be had on the cheap this way.
More like 95% of users want "plug and play" Macs - most are opting for iOS devices as the systems get closer in basics. I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple develop an iOS based line of iMac / mini machines to add to the phone and pad offerings and an OS X Pro line of air, book and towers for those with OS X needs. Price point could drop or be maintained on iOS machines and Proline is already expensive. The line of A (X) chips will have to get more robust and a stronger GPU.