MAC VS PC: Flawed Argument! (try comparing apples to apples)

[snberk103]

I thought the idea here was to take price out of the argument.

These types of threads always degenerate into the "I can't afford it, therefore anyone else who bought this overpriced [insert Justin Trudeau's astute but unparliamentary language here] is an idiot, regardless of your personal circumstances!"

So - price over logic.... Too bad, eh?

 

[blue22]

I agree that it's mostly subjective, but to a point...

It's a preference. Using a Mac isn't any friendlier or easier than using a PC, it's all up to the person. Most people have grown up using Windows and hence they continue to use Windows today. Learning a new OS is much harder than doing something you learnt years ago, even if you never learnt it that well. Besides, most people's usage is so light that the OS doesn't really matter. Reading email and browsing the web don't really require any learning.

So, you believe that with all things being equal, if one was to start out today for the very first time learning how to use both Windows and OSX that the learning curve would be more or less equal for someone figuring out how to manage each system efficiently?

If this is what you're saying then I simply don't agree. Apple has a much better OS GUI system overall to navigate through, especially with regard to first time computer users. Even with changing system settings to grasping the user directory file organization is waaaaay more intuitive to understand on OSX than compared to Windows.

 

[kolax]

Things I really like about OS X over Windows:

- Keyboard layout and keyboard shortcuts. Having to press CTRL on windows is a pinky job or involves moving your left hand. CMD is placed in an ideal place, and involves very little movement/effort. If you are using CMD a lot in applications, then the position really does matter. Though in saying that, I've remapped CTRL for ALT on Windows, though it gets confusing with the Windows key having functionality in shortcuts in 7.

- Keyboard shortcuts like CMD+TAB and CMD+` are really effective and involve moving the hand very slightly. Those two shortcuts are crucial in an effective workload environment.

- Things generally feel snappier in OS X. Even with Windows 7, I still feel a slight lag in using applications, browsing Windows Explorer etc.

- Hiding applications, using the Dock, Mission Control etc.

- No viruses, and less prone to catching malware or trojans


Things I really like about Windows over OS X:

- Better multiple monitor support. In OS X, if I have say the Dock on display A, and an application display B, the menu bar is always on display A, so even if the application is in display B, I still have to move the cursor over to display A to access the menu bar.

- Better customisation. Ironic, because I like OS X's simplicity, and customisation kind of goes against that.

- Runs Microsoft Office better, and you get MS Access (for when it's unfortunately required). The Mac versions of Microsoft's programs are good, but I find the performance is never great compared to the Windows equivalent.

- Microsoft has moved towards a one OS kind of approach with Windows 8 for tablets and desktops. Apple obviously has OS 11 in the pipeline to compete in that level, but what Microsoft has demonstrated so far looks promising.

--------

I'll always prefer OS X over Windows. I like Macs better than PCs for their build, user input methods (glass trackpad, multitouch trackpad that works well). I don't mind paying more for a Mac than a PC given that it is worth it. With the Mac you get a solid aluminium enclosure, among other good build techniques. Things like Thunderbolt are pretty useful too (I've always been a fan of daisy chaining FireWire stuff) - daisy chaining a display, external hard drives, external speakers etc all from one port makes life so much easier and quicker when using a laptop with that equipment.

Because Apple makes both the hardware and software, the integration and support can't be beaten. If something isn't right with the MacBook Pro drivers, Apple will release an update. If that were a PC, you'd have to get a manufacture update, which may be a separate update box on your task bar tray in addition to the Windows Update. Little things like that make life a pain, and Apple's integration makes it less painful.

 

[blue22]

it's cheaper for a reason...

...

ASUS Zenbook

Intel Core i7-2677M
256GB SSD
4GB RAM

Price: $1449

Similarly specced MBA: $1699

Enough? The Dell is from Dell's online stores, others are NewEgg prices so go ahead and check them yourself.

I'll happily pay a little extra if it means I don't have to see any of those stupid specification & product stickers littering my otherwise beautiful Mac laptop chassis right out the box.

 

[blue22]

tough love...

You talk about people not wanting to get down on the basics of computers yet you say customers are at fault for not doing research into what computer they want to buy.

Yes and Yes.

Most people don't have the time/interest/patience to learn about their computers and what actually makes them run most efficiently, so they'll usually jump on board with the "pre-packaged" systems that simplifies things for them in this regard, and often they will be plenty satisfied that "it just works" for most of their needs. And nothing is wrong with this. However, companies like Apple exploit this technical ignorance by overcharging for components like RAM, HDD and even the chipset, and I agree that this aspect is not cool of them to do, but it's still the buyer's responsibility to know enough about the product they're looking to buy. Just because you may not be a computer wiz/tinker doesn't mean you can't educate yourself on a given system's performance capabilities in relation to the competition. Else you're going in blind every time, and why should anyone feel sorry for you?

Mac's are more expensive and it's HILARIOUS (and rude) that you say price complainers can't afford a decent system yet I can show you a cheap self-build that can run-circles around the base macpro.

By "cheap" I'm assuming you actually meant "inexpensive", correct?



If you specifically want a Mac, expect to pay more to have one; generally speaking that's all I was trying to say before. Regardless, the reality is that many people do tend to be "cheap" regarding the electronics that they buy. And I don't mean this in an elitist type way, rather it has to do with the tendency of either of the following:

1. not having the cashflow to afford what they actually want.
2. not doing a better job researching what they're looking to buy and settling for a product out of ignorance.
3. overlooking overall value in favor of lower upfront hard costs, not factoring costs over time to operate.

But regarding the "cheap self-build that can run-circles around the base macpro", I don't doubt it's less expensive to do it in this way but, OS platform choice to the side, how much time do you really expect the average person to want to spend DIY'ing their own system? 2, maybe 3 hours at the most? Not to mention all the time it takes to track down the needed parts, assemble them together, and get it all configured to run properly to do what you need it to do. Most people are not that technically savvy to do this for themselves, so even if it's Dell, IBM or Sony you buy your pre-assembled computer from you're still going to pay a premium over the cost of parts to have it assembled for you. Apple does a better job at the overall industrial design and build quality of their computers than compared to their competitors so of course there's at least some cost associated with that aspect of their products retail price don't you think?

It's not about AFFORDABILITY it's about bang for buck.

If it's only about getting the most "bang for buck" then you're looking for an "cheaper deal" upfront and that's not what you're going to find with any Apple product.

However, for what it costs, you generally get what you paid for AND you can trust that the product is going to serve you well for at least a few years in most cases (provided one actually takes care of it decently enough) if not have it last you several years from the date of original purchase. So in many ways it evens out price-wise over time with Apple by not having to service the thing as much, and for most people this is a welcomed benefit of owning a Mac.

 

[thekev]

[bolding is added]
They are not "overpriced". I hate this argument when I see it. A fair "price" is set by the market-place, since we are in a free-market economy. If they were overpriced, they would not be selling. If they were underpriced, they would be selling - but the company would be suffering losses. Apple is both a) selling 'em as fast as they can make 'em, and b) is not losing money. Therefore - by definition - they are fairly priced.

If you can't afford one - don't buy one. It is as simple as that. It's called a "Free-Market". Sigh....

OSX has become somewhat of a self perpetuating standard in certain industries due to the availability or stability of staple software in the past. These days they're a lot more interchangeable than before. There are a few areas (like OpenGL) where Apple has fallen behind in performance on comparable hardware, which runs contrary to the idea of getting more out of equivalent hardware under OSX.

On price the only thing that truly irritates me is when they pull something like what has happened with the mac pro. It's always had a high cost of entry, but they've continually downgraded the entry level configuration while inflating the cost of roughly equivalent hardware (adjusted for the current generation) to higher price points. If you look at Hellhammer's price comparison, up until 2009, or so, Apple actually compared pretty favorably with similar configurations on a Dell workstation (their workstations are definitely constructed a bit better than some of their consumer lines).

Don't tell me $2000 for a MBP is fair

They still sell because they offer features that no one else does (design, Mac OS, etc)

OSX coupled with the hardware makes it difficult to break away from a company like Apple. It basically creates a situation where even if the hardware is less compelling, you're likely to stay due to software /OS. Windows and OSX both have irritating bugs and quirks, but you just kind of learn the workarounds for whichever you use most frequently.

Dell Precision T3500

Intel Xeon W3530 2.8GHz
AMD FirePro V4800
3GB DDR3
1TB 7200rpm hard drive

Total: $1550

Similarly specced Mac Pro: $2499

Samsung 7 Series

Intel Core i7-2675QM
AMD Radeon HD 6750M
8GB DDR3
750GB hard drive
Aluminum body

Price: $1199

Similarly specced MBP: $1799 ($2299 before the update)

ASUS Zenbook

Intel Core i7-2677M
256GB SSD
4GB RAM

Price: $1449

Similarly specced MBA: $1699

Enough? The Dell is from Dell's online stores, others are NewEgg prices so go ahead and check them yourself.

iMac doesn't have any real competitors, mainly because the AIO market is quite dead. iMac only sells because it's Apple.

Was there ever a real AIO market? It seemed like more of a fad than anything. The imac has simply functioned as a catch all kind of system for consumer desktops. In some cases it's cheaper to go that route than buy a mini once the entire purchase is calculated.

So, you believe that with all things being equal, if one was to start out today for the very first time learning how to use both Windows and OSX that the learning curve would be more or less equal for someone figuring out how to manage each system efficiently?

If this is what you're saying then I simply don't agree. Apple has a much better OS GUI system overall to navigate through, especially with regard to first time computer users. Even with changing system settings to grasping the user directory file organization is waaaaay more intuitive to understand on OSX than compared to Windows.

Neither is difficult to learn. There's just nothing difficult to them. The irritating things with Windows are mostly flare. If you use a wacom tablet (as an example) it has these irritating tablet pc animations that it will start up, without an easy solution for disabling them (I found the exe file responsible for these stupid animations, and replaced it with a blank text document of the same name). Aero also causes a few issues, but that can be disabled by choosing a non Aero desktop. In OSX, spotlight has caused more issues than any other feature ever added. I have helped people resolve spotlight issues since Tiger. New bugs just seem to pop up every time there's a new OS.

 

[KnightWRX]

iMac doesn't have any real competitors, mainly because the AIO market is quite dead. iMac only sells because it's Apple.

Yeah, the HP Omni AIO, the HP Touchsmart PC line-up, the Dell Vostro 360 and Asus' entire ET series (http://usa.asus.com/Allinone_PCs/) are all figments of our imagination.

 

[snberk103]

....
Mac's are more expensive and it's HILARIOUS (and rude) that you say price complainers can't afford a decent system yet I can show you a cheap self-build that can run-circles around the base macpro.

It's not about AFFORDABILITY it's about bang for buck.

...

Comparing any self-build system to any off-the-shelf is, by definition, not comparing apples to apples - or "bang for buck".

No one seems to add
A) The cost of the labour (yours) for a self-build. This includes the time to build, time to research, time to get the parts or to order them online, etc;
B) The cost of not dealing with a unified warranty process (like AppleCare). With an off-shelf-system still under warranty if you have a problem, you take the system back to the store and they get to figure out which part is mis-behaving, and then repair it - or give you a complete new system;
C) The time to keep several SW bits up-to-date (Bios, Drivers, etc). With an off-the-shelf system most (if not all) of updates are collected for you in one place.

The reason why any self-bulld system is cheaper is because you are subsidizing the initial purchase, and the on-going operations, with your labour. Calculate how much "cheaper" that self-build system is if you pay yourself just minimum wage for the extra time spent. And if you are now so good at building systems that it only takes a few hours, don't forget to amortize the cost of all those hours you spent on building previous systems learning those skills.

I used to build my own systems. Loved it, and learned lots. I would never say however a system cost me "less" - it merely took less out of my pocket at the expense of less time doing other things. While the enjoyment of building systems was high, I didn't count that "cost" - but it was there nonetheless.

Now, I buy my systems... and I get to do other things I find more enjoyable now.

 

[Adamantoise]

Well honestly, I love OS X and my Macbook Pro, but I don't think there's anything inherently better about OS X compared to Windows 7.

I've owned my desktop for a year and I've had no issues with it whatsoever. I play a couple games here and there, but most of all I use it for picture editing in Photoshop CS5 and Adobe Lightroom 3.

I just don't see the OS X advantage for my uses. Still I use both OSes everyday.

 

[jsgreen]

Whether a product is overpriced or not has to be evaluated by the value the product delivers, not just the sum of its physical (and bundled software) parts.

For me (and I bet many others) Apple products simply deliver more value. In my case, spending 10+ hours a day on my Windows PC (a Dell) became unbearable...so I switched to a MBA.

Compared to the Dell, the MBA and OS X are just much nicer to use...using the MBA makes me happier and more productive - which makes the higher expense worth the cost.

 

[Hellhammer]

Yeah, the HP Omni AIO, the HP Touchsmart PC line-up, the Dell Vostro 360 and Asus' entire ET series (http://usa.asus.com/Allinone_PCs/) are all figments of our imagination.

Find one that can actually compete with the whole iMac series. The person who asked this specifically wanted comparable PCs, not just random ones. The ASUS link would be comparing a $500 HP to MBP.

Being an AIO doesn't mean that it's automatically comparable to iMac. I have yet to see one that packs in the same components and has 27" hi-res display. Not that I really care because AIO is a stupid form factor anyway.

 

[jmpnop]

OSX coupled with the hardware makes it difficult to break away from a company like Apple. It basically creates a situation where even if the hardware is less compelling, you're likely to stay due to software /OS. Windows and OSX both have irritating bugs and quirks, but you just kind of learn the workarounds for whichever you use most frequently.

That doesn't change the fact that they're overpriced...

 

[KnightWRX]

Being an AIO doesn't mean that it's automatically comparable to iMac.

Maybe I wasn't clear, I was responding to this exact quip of yours :

mainly because the AIO market is quite dead. iMac only sells because it's Apple.

Never did I claim any of those AIOs were direct iMac competitors. I simply pointed out the fallacy of your statement that the AIO market is quite dead.

 

[superfula]

Dell Precision T3500

Intel Xeon W3530 2.8GHz
AMD FirePro V4800
3GB DDR3
1TB 7200rpm hard drive

Total: $1550

Similarly specced Mac Pro: $2499

Really, the Nehalem? One pos Dell based on a processor over a year old? Please, this isn't hard.

Samsung 7 Series

Intel Core i7-2675QM
AMD Radeon HD 6750M
8GB DDR3
750GB hard drive
Aluminum body

Price: $1199

Similarly specced MBP: $1799 ($2299 before the update)

Sure, it's cheaper. But it's also a poorly build computer (see the reviews). Perhaps I should have included crap metal computers as well, but it should have been obvious. Like I said, you can't compare a Lada to a Jaguar.

ASUS Zenbook

Intel Core i7-2677M
256GB SSD
4GB RAM

Price: $1449

Similarly specced MBA: $1699

Seriously, do you have any clue about these computers or were you just looking at prices? The Asus is a nice computer, but the trackpad and dealing with Asus to get it serviced is EASILY worth $250. Not to mention OS X.

Enough? The Dell is from Dell's online stores, others are NewEgg prices so go ahead and check them yourself.

iMac doesn't have any real competitors, mainly because the AIO market is quite dead. iMac only sells because it's Apple.

Still waiting for one. You've already been called out on your AIO crap, so no need to do that as well. I wish I could say I expected better from you, Hellhammer.

Whether a product is overpriced or not has to be evaluated by the value the product delivers, not just the sum of its physical (and bundled software) parts.

For me (and I bet many others) Apple products simply deliver more value. In my case, spending 10+ hours a day on my Windows PC (a Dell) became unbearable...so I switched to a MBA.

Compared to the Dell, the MBA and OS X are just much nicer to use...using the MBA makes me happier and more productive - which makes the higher expense worth the cost.

Very well said. Apparently that point was missed in my post.

 

[dejo]

That doesn't change the fact that they're overpriced...

Quit stating this like it's a fact. It's simply an opinion... yours.

 

[Hellhammer]

Really, the Nehalem? Compare the Westmere builds. One pos Dell based on a processor over a year old? Please, this isn't hard.

W3530 is used in the Mac Pro Apple is selling today. Why? Because SNB-E Xeons aren't out yet and Westmere was just high-end for SP CPUs.

Change the CPU to W3690 (which is Westmere) and the price is $3030. Similar Mac Pro is $3699.

Sure, it's cheaper. But it's also a poorly build computer (see the reviews). Perhaps I should have included crap metal computers as well, but it should have been obvious. Like I said, you can't compare a Lada to a Jaguar.

And there's $600 price difference, one third of MBP's price. The build quality of MBP alone isn't enough to justify the difference, and I wouldn't say MBP's build quality is all that great (thermal paste, anyone?).

Seriously, do you have any clue about these computers or were you just looking at prices? The Asus is a nice computer, but the trackpad and dealing with Asus to get it serviced is EASILY worth $250. Not to mention OS X.

Maybe for you. Not everyone is ready to fork off $250 because of a trackpad.

Still waiting for one. You've already been called out on your AIO crap, so no need to do that as well. I wish I could say I expected better from you, Hellhammer.

What crap? I said the AIO market doesn't do that well, which is true. The only reason iMac sells is that it's Apple and Apple doesn't make a similarly priced tower.

 

[Turnpike]

See how the people want to introduce PRICE into the argument...? People comparing Ferrari's and Fords dont hate on the Ferrari because of the price- they are more likely to point out how the Ford is a lesser product.

Looking through the post, 90% of the time when people are saying something non-pro-apple, they are bringing up the PRICE again.

The whole point of this thread- TO LEAVE PRICE OUT OF IT keeps getting missed.

Plus, as I mentioned somewhere else- what other phone would not look AS MUCH like product placement if the Leader of the MI:4 team were using it. If he pulled out any other phone it wouldn't blend with the movie as well. Right...?

 

[notjustjay]

The whole point of this thread- TO LEAVE PRICE OUT OF IT keeps getting missed.

I'm still not clear on what your point is, then.

That the more expensive product has more features? This is somehow a revelation?

Pricing aside, Macs and PCs have precious little differentiation nowadays. They share all of the same sets of components: same CPUs, same chipsets, same video cards, even the same factories churning them out in China.

Yes, if you have more money to play with, you can get better components. A higher-performance CPU. A heavier-duty chassis. But that's the case whether you get a PC or a Mac.

And OS X versus Windows isn't a matter of "better" or "worse", it is a matter of personal preference.

 

[UlsterApple]

I thought the idea here was to take price out of the argument.

Ok lets take out price and put in depreciation.
My G4 Quicksilver cost me £1000 around 2004 and is now worth about £30 on eBay.
The quad-core G5 I had cost around £2000 new in 2005, but sold for under £300. That's SIX years later.
My PC is a quad-core 3.4 Ghz that I built myself seven years ago, and frequently upgrade by replacing the individual bits as required. Cost in total has been under £700, and I recently replaced the case for £30.
I can't do that with my Apple.
My current flat-screen G5 21" cost me around £1000 two months ago. How long is it going to last?
I love Apple to bits, but they can be a real money-pit.

 

[snberk103]

Ok lets take out price and put in depreciation.
My G4 Quicksilver cost me £1000 around 2004 and is now worth about £30 on eBay.
The quad-core G5 I had cost around £2000 new in 2005, but sold for under £300. That's SIX years later.
My PC is a quad-core 3.4 Ghz that I built myself seven years ago, and frequently upgrade by replacing the individual bits as required. Cost in total has been under £700, and I recently replaced the case for £30.
I can't do that with my Apple.
My current flat-screen G5 21" cost me around £1000 two months ago. How long is it going to last?
I love Apple to bits, but they can be a real money-pit.

See my post above.... any self-built system is cheaper than an off-the-shelf system, if you count the dollars/pounds/lira/etc alone. Factor in your time (all of your time, to research, build, repair, and play telephone tag to see whose warranty is covering an issue that could be either a SW or HW caused) to get the true cost.

I too used to build my own systems, and keep them running for years with incremental upgrades... but I would never claim that they were - in the final analysis - "cheaper". They require you spend the time to save the dollars/pounds/lira/etc, that's all.

 

[Turnpike]

See my post above.... any self-built system is cheaper than an off-the-shelf system, if you count the dollars/pounds/lira/etc alone. Factor in your time (all of your time, to research, build, repair, and play telephone tag to see whose warranty is covering an issue that could be either a SW or HW caused) to get the true cost.

I too used to build my own systems, and keep them running for years with incremental upgrades... but I would never claim that they were - in the final analysis - "cheaper". They require you spend the time to save the dollars/pounds/lira/etc, that's all.

AGAIN- price, money, depreciation.... they keep popping up. If you want the best products available to mankind, you'd buy a Mac. It's that simple. People kept confusing the issue when I asked which was better before I started to learn CS5 (because I had to buy the CS5 Master Suite for PC or Mac) and if they would have elimintated the price from the argument, I'd have gotten my answer.

NOT CARING ABOUT MONEY, only THE PRODUCT, Apple products are (far) superior.

 

[AdrianK]

My current flat-screen G5 21" cost me around £1000 two months ago. How long is it going to last?

Wait... you bought an iMac G5 two months ago for £1000?!

 

[snberk103]

...
NOT CARING ABOUT MONEY, only THE PRODUCT, Apple products are (far) superior.

Personally, I agree with you - but only to a point. For you and me, Apple products do what we ask them to do. But.... they are not, across the board, "superior". They are merely "superior" for our needs. For other people, maybe not.... and that is a decision that only they can make. I am often asked by friends to help them decide whether to transition to a Mac. I usually can recommend the change to Macs, but not always.... it depends on their circumstances. For some people, Windows and non-Mac PCs are "superior" for their needs, and I tell them so.

I went from building my own systems directly to Apple products. Both models of computing were "superior" for my needs, at that time.

 

[63dot]

From my experiences of using and owning both since 1999, my Macs have been more durable than my PCs. With cost thrown out of the equation, then the Mac is a far better computer on the hardware side.

As for Mac OS vs. Windows, the former was easier to learn how to use but after a long time, one gets used to both platforms and it doesn't really matter what the OS is. I would say that overall, Mac OS is somewhat better than Windows once you know both. However, for a new user, Mac OS is far better.

Then let's get to the real world where most of us have to buy this stuff. You get far more for the money with a PC. Right now, for a desktop, the Mac mini is hard to beat and it's what I have used for a few years without any issues. For laptops, you can get a lot for the money and since Windows 7, the experience has been very good. BTW, my main laptop is a mid-level Gateway and I love it.

 

[boss.king]

AGAIN- price, money, depreciation.... they keep popping up. If you want the best products available to mankind, you'd buy a Mac. It's that simple. People kept confusing the issue when I asked which was better before I started to learn CS5 (because I had to buy the CS5 Master Suite for PC or Mac) and if they would have elimintated the price from the argument, I'd have gotten my answer.

NOT CARING ABOUT MONEY, only THE PRODUCT, Apple products are (far) superior.

Their cases are better than most pc cases (most, not all) but that is it. The rest is of exactly the same quality. If you were told different you were lied to.