MacBook Pro M3: You're Being

[Chancha]

His reviews are usually pretty rigorous. I think he took a wrong turn somewhere doing this one. His mien, however, rubs me the wrong way. Something a little gooey about his presentation.

To me he took it quite wrong regarding memory bandwidth nerfing. Instead of doing test, or referencing actual insightful articles etc, his "proof" was his "two computer science degrees" (I am still baffled at the need to mention this).

The decrease of memory channel thus the available bandwidth is clearly a consequence of binning in the M3 Max. And especially with the base M3 Max, losing 1/4 of the memory controllers should have been devastating for the binned version performance? But we don't see this to be the case in any of the real world tests. In fact the unbinned M3 Max shows marginal improvements over the binned in most of the cases, not even proportional to the high core counts than the binned. Let alone memory bandwidth becomes a bottleneck anywhere.

This is because literally close to no real world applications can make use all the available bandwidth. The aforementioned anadtech article tested this clearly, though it was only for the M1 Max, that the potential 400Gb/s bandwidth could only run data at ~240GB/s combined, and this is under the condition of a test tuned to find this limit. I then remember another article for the M2 Pro that found improved utilization of this, but still nowhere near the 200GB/s of the Pro (which is nerfed to 150GB/s this gen). What I am seeing is Apple optimizing the memory hardware chain in accordance to the accomanied SoC config. Specifically in the GPU core counts, where VRAM footprint increases dramatically, but also drops significantly in the binned Max with 30 vs the unbinned 40. Then the decision to not give as many extra cores for the M3 Pro vs what we'd expect if we use the M1 Pro to M2 Pro jump, this "lack of more cores" means that chip is fine with a lesser memory footprint, which was overkill in M1 Pro and M2 Pro to begin with.

Anyway. End of the date a tech YouTuber is only as good as another tech YouTuber.

 

[macduke]

This is basically what I was saying not long after launch once the benchmarks leaked. It seems rather apparent that Apple wanted to differentiate the Pro and the Max.

The M2 Pro and M2 Max CPU performance were very similar or not significantly far apart in benchmarks. Same thing for the M1 Pro and M1 Max. Now the M3 Max is leaps beyond the M3 Pro. They probably ran the numbers and realized that a lot of people didn't give a crap about the GPU (especially because gaming on the Mac barely exists) so why not differentiate more on the CPU? So when early M1 sales figures came in they probably used that to inform how to set up the M3 chip, as at that point the M2 chips were probably fairly finalized on core counts and memory bandwidth.

As for this video, I love how this guy likes to toot his own horn about being such a computer expert, but says that the improvements aren't due to being a 3nm chip, but rather due to cramming more cores into it. How does he think they got more cores into the chip without it being smaller? And then says that the fans are louder and therefore working harder, but also notes that it runs cooler under load than the older chips. Does he not understand anything at all about thermal dynamics? If the fans are louder and also the temps are lower but you're getting a MASSIVE performance increase on the Max, then isn't most of that due to being a 3nm process, with a more aggressive fan ramp only under load?

He then shows how it has shorter battery life under load. But here's the kicker: that test was a 30 minute sustained test. The only constraint was time, not how much work was done during that time. What I want to see is how much battery life is left after they both render a 30 minute 8K video. You probably see where I'm going with this!

I saw a test where a four minute long 8K export was 1:03 on the M3 Max and 1:37 on the M2 Max, a ~35% decrease. So to normalize it to 30 minutes of work, the M2 Max can render that video in 30 minutes, then the M3 Max would render that same video in about 19:30. So the M3 Max is under load for 10:30 less than the M2 Pro. Well how does that affect battery life? Given his test for the 16" MBP, which both have 100Wh batteries, the M3 Max had 67Wh left and the M2 Max had 78Wh left under load in Cinebench. That means the the M3 Max was burning through 1.1Wh/min and the M2 Max was burning through 0.73Wh/min. Well, if we roughly apply that same 35% reduction in time, Then the M3 Max would be at completion of the actual work with 78.55Wh remaining. And that's slightly better than, but damn close to the 78Wh figure he gave for the M2 Max. And there is no such thing as a coincidence. It's so close that I bet Apple's engineers targeted that. So you get your work done faster, but use, within margin of error, about the same amount of battery.

Either way, let's be real here: Most people aren't going to be rendering 8K videos on battery. Even professional editors. And hell, even I'm hardly ever going to really push this thing to its limit when it comes to RAW CPU performance. I only got the M3 Max for the 64GB memory because I'm a jack of all trades who absolutely murders system memory. Yes I know I'm a monster but this is my work and personal machine and I jump around a lot because I get bored if I work on one thing for too long or find something new to learn like I was recently playing with AI models in Pinokio.app. Actually, AI stuff might actually hit my M3 Max pretty hard, but it's more for fun.

Also wanted to point out that this so-called export needs to learn about acoustic foam, LMAO. Or at the very least get a good cardioid so there are fewer reflections coming from behind. Or learn how to reduce reflections in Audition or Logic Pro, or with some of the new AI tools on the market. Could barely make it through his video because of that...

 

[ascender]

I see what's he's saying, but not sure I agree we've been misled (although I know the title has to be a bit clickbait to get traction). The specs and memory bandwidth speeds are there for all to see on the pages. And it's not as if the overall performance of any of the chips has taken a big knock because of it. If your workload needs the power of the Max chip, you get the fastest memory bandwidth.

I agree that there's way too much focus on benchmarks v real world performance, but I'd love to see how many users buy one of these and find the memory bandwidth is a bottleneck for their workflow? Unless you've really bought an M3 chip when you actually need the Max version for your work.

This is basically what I was saying not long after launch once the benchmarks leaked. It seems rather apparent that Apple wanted to differentiate the Pro and the Max.

Yes, this is what I think they've done - they've "reset" the lineup to differentiate the models going forward. And as we've seen with the banks of memory leading to the different values of RAM, there's going to be change due to architecture as we progress through the generations of Apple Silicon.

 

[EDS66]

This is basically what I was saying not long after launch once the benchmarks leaked. It seems rather apparent that Apple wanted to differentiate the Pro and the Max.

The M2 Pro and M2 Max CPU performance were very similar or not significantly far apart in benchmarks. Same thing for the M1 Pro and M1 Max. Now the M3 Max is leaps beyond the M3 Pro. They probably ran the numbers and realized that a lot of people didn't give a crap about the GPU (especially because gaming on the Mac barely exists) so why not differentiate more on the CPU? So when early M1 sales figures came in they probably used that to inform how to set up the M3 chip, as at that point the M2 chips were probably fairly finalized on core counts and memory bandwidth.

As for this video, I love how this guy likes to toot his own horn about being such a computer expert, but says that the improvements aren't due to being a 3nm chip, but rather due to cramming more cores into it. How does he think they got more cores into the chip without it being smaller? And then says that the fans are louder and therefore working harder, but also notes that it runs cooler under load than the older chips. Does he not understand anything at all about thermal dynamics? If the fans are louder and also the temps are lower but you're getting a MASSIVE performance increase on the Max, then isn't most of that due to being a 3nm process, with a more aggressive fan ramp only under load?

He then shows how it has shorter battery life under load. But here's the kicker: that test was a 30 minute sustained test. The only constraint was time, not how much work was done during that time. What I want to see is how much battery life is left after they both render a 30 minute 8K video. You probably see where I'm going with this!

I saw a test where a four minute long 8K export was 1:03 on the M3 Max and 1:37 on the M2 Max, a ~35% decrease. So to normalize it to 30 minutes of work, the M2 Max can render that video in 30 minutes, then the M3 Max would render that same video in about 19:30. So the M3 Max is under load for 10:30 less than the M2 Pro. Well how does that affect battery life? Given his test for the 16" MBP, which both have 100Wh batteries, the M3 Max had 67Wh left and the M2 Max had 78Wh left under load in Cinebench. That means the the M3 Max was burning through 1.1Wh/min and the M2 Max was burning through 0.73Wh/min. Well, if we roughly apply that same 35% reduction in time, Then the M3 Max would be at completion of the actual work with 78.55Wh remaining. And that's slightly better than, but damn close to the 78Wh figure he gave for the M2 Max. And there is no such thing as a coincidence. It's so close that I bet Apple's engineers targeted that. So you get your work done faster, but use, within margin of error, about the same amount of battery.

Either way, let's be real here: Most people aren't going to be rendering 8K videos on battery. Even professional editors. And hell, even I'm hardly ever going to really push this thing to its limit when it comes to RAW CPU performance. I only got the M3 Max for the 64GB memory because I'm a jack of all trades who absolutely murders system memory. Yes I know I'm a monster but this is my work and personal machine and I jump around a lot because I get bored if I work on one thing for too long or find something new to learn like I was recently playing with AI models in Pinokio.app. Actually, AI stuff might actually hit my M3 Max pretty hard, but it's more for fun.

Also wanted to point out that this so-called export needs to learn about acoustic foam, LMAO. Or at the very least get a good cardioid so there are fewer reflections coming from behind. Or learn how to reduce reflections in Audition or Logic Pro, or with some of the new AI tools on the market. Could barely make it through his video because of that...

I think he just moved into his new office. He did a video on that not too long ago. He gave up a wall-street salary to be full-time You-tuber. He might not finish setting up the studio yet.

 

[danwells]

He has some good points

1.)Minimal price difference between base M3 plus a RAM upgrade and M3 Pro that comes with the memory upgrade.

2.) Don't buy a 14" M3 Max (especially the full-throttle version) - it takes the 16" chassis to cool it if it's running all-out, and why would you want it if you'll never run it all-out?

3.) Bigger difference than previous generations between Pro and Max due to P-core/e-core mix (but we knew that)

But he misses in several big ways:

1.) GPU IS useful for 2D work - most photo applications (Photoshop, Lightroom, C1, DxO and probably others) use it for noise reduction, sharpening and other tasks that can really jam up an editing workflow. I don't do video at a high level, but I suspect Final Cut, Premiere, Resolve and friends are similar. Apple specifically optimizes their GPUs for these applications, and they always perform like a higher-end Nvidia chip in those tasks than they do in gaming benchmarks.

2.) Memory bandwidth really doesn't affect CPU at all, given how much memory bandwidth even the "nerfed" models have (only the GPU can saturate the kind of memory bandwidth Apple Silicon has). A high-end Wintel desktop has less memory bandwidth than a base M3, and a 96-core Threadripper Pro 7995WX has less than a full-throttle M3 Max. GPU CAN use memory bandwidth like crazy, but when he sees the difference in performance on a CPU test, he's almost certainly seeing the P-core vs. e-core rebalancing rather than memory bandwidth.

3.) You can't easily buy a high-end Intel laptop without spending a good deal of money on GPU, either. Both gaming machines and mobile workstations feature serious GPUs (and charge you for them). Maybe there's some oddity out there with a Core i9 and only integrated graphics, but it's not common. You probably wouldn't want one anyway, due to the unexpected places GPU acceleration turns up.

4.) The pricey M3 Max he complains about is a new level of performance, not the old M2 Max level for more money. The real comparable to the M2 Max is the binned M3 Max, not the full-throttle version. This does raise the issue of inflexible RAM upgrades on the binned model - 96 GB almost never makes sense (you'd rather have the full-throttle model with 64 GB, and it's cheaper), so you have a 36 GB "take it or leave it". 36 GB is a good amount for many tasks, but you might want more...

 

[MapleBeercules]

I think this is the best overview of M3 MacBooks Pro

It funny he says people are taking about stuff they have no idea about, yet he trying to make the case that apple should seperate GPU / CPU upgrades. Clearly the video creator has zero understanding how CPUs are made and the fact that we have 30 / 40 GPU options on high end CPU is because of the manufacturing process and how apple bins them and has ZERO to do with how apple wants to market them..

The CPU options have 100% to do with the horrible N3B production and nothing to do with marketing...
Since apple has limited # of CPU to sell, they trying to price out the demand curve by making the top models stupid expensive.

Maybe do a little research on how CPU binning works before you claim apple is trying to screw customers. ROFL.

Explainer: What is Chip Binning?

You bought a new CPU and it seems to run cool, so you try a bit of overclocking. The GHz climb higher. Did you hit the silicon...

www.techspot.com

Read and learn

 

[EDS66]

He has some good points

1.)Minimal price difference between base M3 plus a RAM upgrade and M3 Pro that comes with the memory upgrade.

2.) Don't buy a 14" M3 Max (especially the full-throttle version) - it takes the 16" chassis to cool it if it's running all-out, and why would you want it if you'll never run it all-out?

3.) Bigger difference than previous generations between Pro and Max due to P-core/e-core mix (but we knew that)

But he misses in several big ways:

1.) GPU IS useful for 2D work - most photo applications (Photoshop, Lightroom, C1, DxO and probably others) use it for noise reduction, sharpening and other tasks that can really jam up an editing workflow. I don't do video at a high level, but I suspect Final Cut, Premiere, Resolve and friends are similar. Apple specifically optimizes their GPUs for these applications, and they always perform like a higher-end Nvidia chip in those tasks than they do in gaming benchmarks.

2.) Memory bandwidth really doesn't affect CPU at all, given how much memory bandwidth even the "nerfed" models have (only the GPU can saturate the kind of memory bandwidth Apple Silicon has). A high-end Wintel desktop has less memory bandwidth than a base M3, and a 96-core Threadripper Pro 7995WX has less than a full-throttle M3 Max. GPU CAN use memory bandwidth like crazy, but when he sees the difference in performance on a CPU test, he's almost certainly seeing the P-core vs. e-core rebalancing rather than memory bandwidth.

3.) You can't easily buy a high-end Intel laptop without spending a good deal of money on GPU, either. Both gaming machines and mobile workstations feature serious GPUs (and charge you for them). Maybe there's some oddity out there with a Core i9 and only integrated graphics, but it's not common. You probably wouldn't want one anyway, due to the unexpected places GPU acceleration turns up.

4.) The pricey M3 Max he complains about is a new level of performance, not the old M2 Max level for more money. The real comparable to the M2 Max is the binned M3 Max, not the full-throttle version. This does raise the issue of inflexible RAM upgrades on the binned model - 96 GB almost never makes sense (you'd rather have the full-throttle model with 64 GB, and it's cheaper), so you have a 36 GB "take it or leave it". 36 GB is a good amount for many tasks, but you might want more...

All good points. Number 4 is spot on! In pure CPU performance unbinned M3Max trades blows with M2Ultra. I get the sense that much of this negativity towards M3 is driven by buyer's regret. People who bought the M2 line of laptops and especially higher-end desktops feel like they've been suckered.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Lmao I know better than to watch YouTube videos with that kind of poster/thumbnail image.

 

[Chuckeee]

I don't know why but I find him to be extremely annoying.

Stating that he has 2 degrees in computer science and then expects the viewer to consider that has is proof of expertise just proves to me he is a pompous and nothing else. After after hearing that, if he told me, water was wet, I would have my doubts.

 

[jagolden]

It's just a rule of thumb for 1000 cycles.
If you don't think 2 years, how many years did you plan to get for 1000 cycles when you bought?

Ask that to my 2010 MBP.

 

[KoolAid-Drink]

I'm wondering, do you think the 14" M3 Pro (with 18gbs of RAM and 1TB HD) would be sufficient for my use case? I mostly watch videos online, document editing, and use virtual machines, which is probably the most intensive use case. I don't do professional-grade video editing or graphics like that, or anything.

Thanks!

 

[tekksan]

I'm wondering, do you think the 14" M3 Pro (with 18gbs of RAM and 1TB HD) would be sufficient for my use case? I mostly watch videos online, document editing, and use virtual machines, which is probably the most intensive use case. I don't do professional-grade video editing or graphics like that, or anything.

Thanks!

Yes.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I like to buy for a discount, and the australian discounts only featured a couple of iterations of the 16" (which I wanted for a bigger screen). The price performance comes down for some users to "value". On our sale prices over in Australia, an M3 Pro could only be bought with a half TB drive. Full retail prices otherwise.

Without discounts in the USA, if one upgrades the M3 Pro to 1 TB and 36 GB RAM, the price goes up by $400. The cost is then $3,100 for a M3 16" Pro 1TB/36GB. But the sales in Australia provided a 10% discount for th minimum spec Max - the 36/1TB. Which means that a 1 TB 36 GB memory Pro Max 16", instead of being $3,500, was $3,150. So the after discount the lower end Max chip cost an extra $50.

Retailers here though, were advertising M2 Pro macs as well. They offered great value - if it had been possible to get a 32 MB RAM, they were still 20% less than an M3 Max. With their 16 MB memory configuration, they were 27% cheaper than an M3 Max with 38 GB memory. Do they were a lot less, but they were not available. And at Apple, they no longer sell new M2 Pros, so Apple would not match the M2 16" advertised prices (by 3rd party sellers). Apple now only sell (outside of refurbs) M3 equipped MacBook Pros.

IMO the value of the M2 Pros was much better price/performance deal, of one ignores the lack of memory.

Besides productivity, the price / performance matters IMO. The value also relies on productivity, and length of ownership.

 

[JustAnExpat]

Anybody who says that they have two degrees in computer science is a MASSIVE red flag to me for credibility.

1. A lot of people don't ask "a degree at what level"? Is this a "degree" from some type of coding boot camp? A bachelors in computer science? A Masters in Information Technology? I've seen all three being called "computer science degrees".

2. From what university did he acquire these degrees? The quality of degrees from a coding boot camp, an online university, a state university, and a polytechnical college is much different. An Associates and bachelors in Computer Science from Capella University or University of Phoenix (assuming they even offer those degrees) will be viewed much differently than a bachelors and masters from MIT or Cal Poly.

The fact he's saying "trust me, I have two computer science degrees" without any other information is a massive red flag for me, and without further information I'll view his YouTube as entertainment.

 

[iLuddite]

No mention of overall ownership costs. Can't upgrade memory or storage. Battery replacement after 2 years only from apple, minimum $249.

How can people review something without actually covering HOW MUCH THE THING REALLY COSTS?

Just blindly consume?

 

[mdhaus72]

I think this is the best overview of M3 MacBooks Pro

Interesting video. The "8 GB of memory" thing and the lower memory speed are fair criticisms of Apple's decision-making. But I totally disagree with his assessment on the Space Black color. No, it's not "black as can be" as some people wanted, but I really love it overall. The fact that its appearance varies a bit in different light is one of the things I love the most about it.

My main problem with the silver color is that it really sticks out when you are using your Mac in the dark to watch a movie or TV show or something else where you really just want to focus on the screen.

 

[mdhaus72]

I don't know why but I find him to be extremely annoying.

Me too. He has a few interesting thoughts....but he comes across as a huge elitist.

 

[tekksan]

Interesting video. The "8 GB of memory" thing and the lower memory speed are fair criticisms of Apple's decision-making. But I totally disagree with his assessment on the Space Black color. No, it's not "black as can be" as some people wanted, but I really love it overall. The fact that its appearance varies a bit in different light is one of the things I love the most about it.

My main problem with the silver color is that it really sticks out when you are using your Mac in the dark to watch a movie or TV show or something else where you really just want to focus on the screen.

It never bothered me that the Space Black is not super duper black but like you I never thought about the silver vs black when it comes to watching movies, etc on the black vs silver chassis. The Space Black is much better and really focuses your attention on the screen. Very nice.

 

[tekksan]

I thought the video was pretty good. I don't think he made the video for people with a good knowledge of these devices but rather people who aren't that technical. He does make some good points. My main takeaway:

-M3 Max is a better chip in the 16" than the 14" to get the most out of it.

 

[3Rock]

Anybody who says that they have two degrees in computer science is a MASSIVE red flag to me for credibility.

1. A lot of people don't ask "a degree at what level"? Is this a "degree" from some type of coding boot camp? A bachelors in computer science? A Masters in Information Technology? I've seen all three being called "computer science degrees".

2. From what university did he acquire these degrees? The quality of degrees from a coding boot camp, an online university, a state university, and a polytechnical college is much different. An Associates and bachelors in Computer Science from Capella University or University of Phoenix (assuming they even offer those degrees) will be viewed much differently than a bachelors and masters from MIT or Cal Poly.

The fact he's saying "trust me, I have two computer science degrees" without any other information is a massive red flag for me, and without further information I'll view his YouTube as entertainment.

People are getting worked up about this. It doesn’t bother me one bit what he says about his background. It’s all about the content. And what I read is true. The End. 🤪

 

[Al Rukh]

So tired of these YouTubers talking about how it isn't a "pro" Mac because it isn't specced the way they want it to be for everyone else.

Too much hyperbole in the video for my liking.

It’s been beaten to death honestly. At this point a ‘Pro’ MacBook could be any MacBook that enables you to complete your tasks.

The base M3 MBP would have been a perfect machine for me, as I don’t use it for work but I do want the Liquid Retina XDR display.

 

[mdhaus72]

It never bothered me that the Space Black is not super duper black but like you I never thought about the silver vs black when it comes to watching movies, etc on the black vs silver chassis. The Space Black is much better and really focuses your attention on the screen. Very nice.

Exactly. It's why I chose Space Gray on my previous model and instantly went to Space Black on this one.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

He Demonstrably showed where nerfing the memory bandwidth did impact some people's work vs the previous Macbook Pro skus configurations.

For me though I'm not doing those kinds of activities and I'm coming from Mac Mini m2/Macbook Air m2 both of which only had 100 GB/s bandwidth. vs the 150 GB/s on my MBP M3 Pro. So in my case it was a slight bump. Though my use case is unlikely to bottleneck that. Still it lends credence to the arguments made against what Apple did to restructure their sku configuration offerings.

 

[danwells]

Yes.

I'm wondering, do you think the 14" M3 Pro (with 18gbs of RAM and 1TB HD) would be sufficient for my use case? I mostly watch videos online, document editing, and use virtual machines, which is probably the most intensive use case. I don't do professional-grade video editing or graphics like that, or anything.

Thanks!

Unless you're running a bunch of virtual machines at once? If it's one virtual machine (e.g. to run a relatively "ordinary" Windows app, or even a set of them), that's a great configuration. The only case where I'd get warm is if you're using a bunch of virtual machines for software testing or the like. You can certainly have multiple VMs installed without a problem, but I'd worry about the RAM in the (rare) case that you actually had several actively running at the same time.