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mattspace

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Jun 5, 2013
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So I need to assist a family member with a replacement for an 11 year old MBA - the main work task for the machine is running Windows in Parallels, for the Windows version of MYOB. They're mostly working remotely now, and don't really want a dedicated Widows machine.

Using the Windows version of MYOB is a non-negotiable.

There seem to be ways of running an ARM version of Windows in Parallels on an M1 Macbook Air, and then using MYOB (possibly using Windows Intel->ARM emulation), but my instincts say to me that the simpler solution would be an Apple Refurb late gen Intel machine, so all the existing virtual machines etc can just copy across. Easier to sit on the trailing edge, than on the cutting edge.

We can get the 2020 (magic keyboard) 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.0GHz quad-core Intel Core i5 from Apple, it's a 16gb model with the touchbar, escape key, 4x TB3 ports and Iris Plus graphics. Or is there a specific reason to look at the i7 models for parallels?

Any thoughts from folks doing virtualising would be appreciated.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Feb 23, 2009
4,259
1,412
Brazil
Is there a specific reason why you are seeking a Mac, instead of a PC, for running Windows?

I mean, the latest Intel Macs are equipped with a 10th gen processor. Intel is currently releasing the 12th gen. Macs with the Arm processor will not support Windows, and, while you may still run it (unofficially) on Parallels, there will be a performance penalty. Plus, you will have to buy a Windows license.

Apple M-series processors may be better than Intel's. However, I do not think that the speed difference makes up for the performance penalty imposed by running two OSs in Parallels.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,016
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We can get the 2020 (magic keyboard) 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.0GHz quad-core Intel Core i5 from Apple, it's a 16gb model with the touchbar, escape key, 4x TB3 ports and Iris Plus graphics. Or is there a specific reason to look at the i7 models for parallels?

If it's working acceptably on a 2010 MacBook Air it will work more than acceptably on a 2020 i5 MacBook Pro. You'll probably have to upgrade Parallels, though.

However, I have to echo the previous reply: the rational answer to the use-case you provide - running MYOB (and "working remotely" presumably means web or remote desktop) is buy a PC. If your family member has stuff they want to do under MacOS then that needs to be a factor in choosing a Mac. The Parallels solution is for when you've got a whole productive workflow going on MacOS but just need one or two bits of PC-only software from time to time. If they're spending all the time running Windows software under Parallels then they have spent $$$ over the odds to get a platform that they hardly use. It's their money, so if they must have a Mac "because reasons" that's fine, but it's hard to give rational buying advice on a non-rational choice.

Plus, you will have to buy a Windows license.

Except you can't buy a Windows-for-ARM license. You can buy a regular Windows license and choose to believe that gives you the right to install the "insider's preview" WOA release and use it as your daily driver - but the "preview" bit means it is provided for testing and evaluation purposes only. Whether you're technically in breach of MS' licensing conditions is one for the lawyers (not Mx Random Internet Person) but the reality is that you're using a temporary evaluation release that could be unstable, unsupported and could be withdrawn, denied critical updates or even actively blocked at MS' whim. It's not about whether MS would care more about you if you'd bought a WoA license, or sue you if you hadn't - and I'm certainly not weeping about their lost revenue - the point is that MS are free to pull the rug on the "preview" at any time and even the big players won't have a leg to stand on if they've been using it for non-evaluation purposes.

Also, if you're using it in a work environment, the guys who do software audits are paid one shilling and sixpence per witch, and are not going to say "hey, cool, we can't find a single problem" if they can help it.

Sadly - and it seems to be increasingly for political reasons (and, allegedly, an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm) rather than technical barriers - until MS decide to sell proper licenses for WoA or treat Parallels as the equivalent of a 3rd party hardware manufacturer, WoA in a VM remains a toy.
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,686
10,292
USA
the main work task for the machine is running Windows.
They're mostly working remotely now, and don't really want a dedicated Widows machine.

Umm I'm not sure how they think working remotely would be bad in a "dedicated Windows machine". An Intel based laptop made by Apple and one made by HP for example will perform similar depending on specs of course. Newer 12th gen Intel will be much faster but depending on your use it might not matter.


If it's just for looks or brand loyalty thing (no judgement I love how MacBooks look) then go with the latest Intel Mac. This being said the i5 should be fine for most uses. This is the route I would go if Apple hardware was required.

I would avoid Apple Silicon Macs for your purpose. I know I'm going to get hate for saying this but I'm typing this on an M1 iMac that I absolutely love but it's not for Windows. Microsoft has a exclusivity deal with Qualcomm so that's why there's no Boot Camp and Windows is not getting any real support for Apple Silicon. That deal is going to expire so maybe after but who knows. Right now it's good to tinker with but if you want something that needs to work I would avoid it.
 
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mattspace

macrumors 68040
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Jun 5, 2013
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Thanks for all the replies. To clarify...

The customer has an entirely Apple-based technology ecosystem. They are not going to buy a Windows machine, under any circumstances. They already have a Mac running Windows in parallels, it works, it works exactly the way they want it to work. Their machine is just too old for the demands of newer versions of Windows / MYOB / Remote access apps.

They're not interested in boot camp, or owning a Windows machine, or owning more than one computer, or any alternative to their current paradigm.

The questions are simple ones:
  1. Is ARM Windows in Parallels on M1 a work-ready thing, or is it still a bit experimental.
  2. Is there a difference for the purposes of virtualisation between an i5 and an i7 MBP, all other stats bing equal.
While I appreciate people trying to help, I'm not looking for suggestions for alternative setups, and I really want to hear from people who do virtualisation on Macbooks.
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,270
13,368
I don't think you want any m-series Mac for this.
Instead, get a "late-model" Intel based Mac.

MAKE SURE that you AVOID these:
MacBook Pro 13" -- 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019
MacBook Pro 15" -- 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019
ALL of these have the disastrous "butterfly keyboards" that are highly-prone to failure. Although Apple has a free replacement program running for 4 years "from new", when that time expires YOU will pay for the repair.
And it's NOT CHEAP -- $750 for even a single key gone bad.
That's because the entire top case has to be replaced... even for a single key failure!

WHICH ONES TO LOOK FOR:
MacBook Pro 13" -- 2020
MacBook Pro 16" -- 2019 and later.
These have the new "magic" (scissors) keyboards, as did the 2015 and earlier MBPs. These keyboards have been very reliable.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
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Australia
I don't think you want any m-series Mac for this.
Instead, get a "late-model" Intel based Mac.


WHICH ONES TO LOOK FOR:

MacBook Pro 13" -- 2020
This is the one we're mainly looking at - we can still get them new at some retailers, and Apple have a good stock of refurbs. It's just a matter of whether it's worth looking at the i7 version.
 

donawalt

Contributor
Sep 10, 2015
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You can buy a regular Windows license and choose to believe that gives you the right to install the "insider's preview" WOA release and use it as your daily driver - but the "preview" bit means it is provided for testing and evaluation purposes only. Whether you're technically in breach of MS' licensing conditions is one for the lawyers (not Mx Random Internet Person) but the reality is that you're using a temporary evaluation release that could be unstable, unsupported and could be withdrawn, denied critical updates or even actively blocked at MS' whim.
This is SO WRONG. Do some searching on the forums, many people are running full Windows 11 retail release as a VM on Parallels on a Apple Silicon Mac - me included. Parallels has the instructions in their Windows/ARM forum how to install it. I never touched an "Insiders Preview" version. Full licensed, retail release, and then I joined the beta program. Updates have come the same time as everyone else gets them:

Screen Shot 2022-01-11 at 8.26.11 PM.png
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
This is SO WRONG. Do some searching on the forums, many people are running full Windows 11 retail release as a VM on Parallels on a Apple Silicon Mac - me included. Parallels has the instructions in their Windows/ARM forum how to install it. I never touched an "Insiders Preview" version. Full licensed, retail release, and then I joined the beta program. Updates have come the same time as everyone else gets them:

View attachment 1942718
Do you need to be in the Beta programme, and how does it work with Windows software that may not have an ARM release, what research I did indicated that Windows has an Intel -> ARM emulation function, but my biggest question would be how reliable that is, and how likely you are to be in a "not supported" category by an app vendor (if there are any that do Intel-only).
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,262
7,427
Perth, Western Australia
Thanks for all the replies. To clarify...

The customer has an entirely Apple-based technology ecosystem. They are not going to buy a Windows machine, under any circumstances. They already have a Mac running Windows in parallels, it works, it works exactly the way they want it to work. Their machine is just too old for the demands of newer versions of Windows / MYOB / Remote access apps.

They're not interested in boot camp, or owning a Windows machine, or owning more than one computer, or any alternative to their current paradigm.

The questions are simple ones:
  1. Is ARM Windows in Parallels on M1 a work-ready thing, or is it still a bit experimental.
  2. Is there a difference for the purposes of virtualisation between an i5 and an i7 MBP, all other stats bing equal.
While I appreciate people trying to help, I'm not looking for suggestions for alternative setups, and I really want to hear from people who do virtualisation on Macbooks.

Do not try to do this on an ARM based Mac yet; windows on arm is not supported by microsoft unless shipped with an ARM device and may break at any time leaving the user screwed until that situation changes with nothing you can do to support it.

Yeah it sucks and Apple Silicon would be much nicer, but you just can't play that sort of game with their primary use case for the machine.

Get the latest intel MacBook of the flavour they prefer until this situation shakes itself out.

Given the ice-lake intel MacBook airs are a dumpster fire of fan noise and throttling, I'd suggest the last intel MacBook Pro line.


Windows on ARM is fine for playing with at the moment, but NOT to be relied upon for anything serious until the above changes.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,262
7,427
Perth, Western Australia
This is SO WRONG. Do some searching on the forums, many people are running full Windows 11 retail release as a VM on Parallels on a Apple Silicon Mac - me included. Parallels has the instructions in their Windows/ARM forum how to install it. I never touched an "Insiders Preview" version. Full licensed, retail release, and then I joined the beta program. Updates have come the same time as everyone else gets them:

View attachment 1942718

You /can/ do that but Microsoft do not support it, and it could potentially break or be disabled by Microsoft at any point. Whatever instructions parallels have (and yes I've read them) it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft explicitly state that it is not supported in this configuration and they currently have an exclusivity agreement with Qualcom for it.

Until that situation changes buying a new machine based on it being a thing for the user's primary usage is what I could consider extremely risky and not worth it.

I say this as someone who has a Windows 11 virtual machine running on my 14".
 

donawalt

Contributor
Sep 10, 2015
1,284
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Microsoft explicitly state that it is not supported in this configuration
Please show us a link where Microsoft explicitly states this.

and they currently have an exclusivity agreement with Qualcomm for it.
This is also wrong. The Qualcomm agreement is for running Windows ARM natively. This is of more interest to those hoping for a bootcamp-type scenario eventually. XDA were the ones who broke the story.
 

donawalt

Contributor
Sep 10, 2015
1,284
630
Do you need to be in the Beta programme, and how does it work with Windows software that may not have an ARM release, what research I did indicated that Windows has an Intel -> ARM emulation function, but my biggest question would be how reliable that is, and how likely you are to be in a "not supported" category by an app vendor (if there are any that do Intel-only).
You do not need to be in the Beta program. I only entered that after I was convinced everything was working fine, and because I had been in the beta program for years. The Windows ARM fully supports both 32 bit and 64 bit Windows apps that don't even know they are running on an ARM version of Windows. I am running Windows financial software on it the has run perfectly since November. MS Office runs fine on it. I use 7Zip decompression software on it, which surely knows nothing about ARM. I am running a proprietary app that primarily goes against servers for configuration, and I just checked - 32 bit, last updated in September 2013! So I don't think you will find compatibility problems although of course apps can have bugs whether ARM Windows or not.

Read this link from Parallels on how to set it up. I linked to the 1st post in the thread so you could read the history and background, it's useful - but note it says read post #48 first, as things have changed. When I did it, it was done differently (in the first few posts) - which worked fine. Now, Parallels supports installing Windows ARM DIRECTLY from the installation of Parallels. So how could that not be supported, I wonder? :)

Lastly, here is a picture of my Windows Update history (in fact an update just came over today) - it's getting ARM updates to Windows fine, it's truly the Retail version of Windows.

EDIT: I do remember one problem I have had, not sure if this is Windows or Parallels related, but there is no Dropbox client that runs in this ARM/Windows/Parallels configuration. This has not been a problem for me, which is why I forgot it, because it's easy to create folders in Dropbox in the Mac side's folder and store things there. The folders look like a network drive, but of course they are on the same computer. Dropbox has taken great heat for this, and their client is available in beta test now - to be released 1H22.

Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 6.33.45 AM.png
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,262
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Perth, Western Australia
edit:

You know what. you do you.

Go for it. For bonus points, post a link to where you can buy a license for Windows 10 or Windows 11 for ARM.
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,016
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This is SO WRONG. Do some searching on the forums, many people are running full Windows 11 retail release as a VM on Parallels on a Apple Silicon Mac - me included. Parallels has the instructions in their Windows/ARM forum how to install it. I never touched an "Insiders Preview" version. Full licensed, retail release, and then I joined the beta program. Updates have come the same time as everyone else gets them:
From https://kb.parallels.com/125375 : (Updated Nov 30 2021)
1. Register for Windows Insider Program"
2. After successful registration, click on the button below and download the Windows Client ARM64 Insider Preview VHDX image.
...which takes me to a MS page saying "You must be registered with the Windows Insiders Program to view this page".

If you have a newer version of those instructions from the official Parallels Knowledge base that says different, do share (since that would be very interesting) but if it's just a forum post by Mx Random Internet Person who's found a backdoor link to the installation image, don't bother.

And, yes, it's well known that you can "activate" WoA with a valid Windows-for-Intel activation code and it will tell you it is licensed, but all that proves is that Intel isn't really bothered about individuals running WoA - especially if those individuals might be inclined to send them money for a valueless license. When I used a Hackintosh for a while the "About This Mac" box raised not a quibble - you had to dig into the Apple EULA to get the bit about "only licensed for use on an Apple branded computer". Maybe it would help get you off the hook if MS tried to sue you for copyright infringement (although last I looked "I thought I had a license" wasn't a defence, it would make MS look stupid - and they're already hugely unlikely to go after individuals who tread on the cracks in the EULA pavement), but that's really not the point here.

The point is that you don't have any commitment from Microsoft to provide WoA on Apple Silicon - and MS have clearly and publicly stated that they don't support that. Those software updates could stop tomorrow, your copy of WoA could decide that it is no longer licensed tomorrow and you would not have a leg to stand on - nor would any large MS customers that might otherwise have some influence.

If you're happy with those odds, then fine. I'm not playing a tiny violin on behalf of Microsoft's precious IP. But when someone asking for buying advice asks what the stats of WoA on Mac is, the answer is that the preview version seems to work well but Microsoft does not sell WoA for virtual machines and has said that they don't support Apple Silicon.

This is also wrong. The Qualcomm agreement is for running Windows ARM natively. This is of more interest to those hoping for a bootcamp-type scenario eventually. XDA were the ones who broke the story.
Nothing in the XDA article mentions any distinction between running WoA natively and running it in a VM - especially a modern VM where most of the code is executed natively by the processor (so Apple's specific implementation of the ARM instruction set would be relevant). And the details of the secret agreement which could make that distinction are, well, still secret...

As for Bootcamp - the processor instruction set is not the only important factor in whether a particular OS will run natively. "Bootcamp" was a viable option on Intel Macs because - certainly before the T1 and T2 chips showed up - Intel Macs were basically just slightly nicer PC clones using generic PC processors, disc controllers, GPUs etc. and even had firmware (EFI) that was intended as a replacement for the PC BIOS and could fairly easily be equipped with a BIOS compatibility mode, after which a standard Windows install DVD "just worked" - or could be made to work by relatively minor customisations to the installer. Bootcamp was mostly a set of "point'n'click" helpers and a one-stop-shop download of drivers to make it easy and safe to achive something that could be done manually if you had nothing better to do.

Apple Silicon Macs are nothing like that - and, beyond using the ARM instruction set, nothing like any other ARM computer on the market (I'm not sure what the state of the art is w.r.t. standardisation between ARM platforms but Apple certainly ain't in that club). The firmware is more like an iPad than anything else, the GPU and the storage controller etc. are proprietary Apple designs optimised for MacOS. A "bootcamp-like" windows installation would require (probably MS) to write completely new bootloaders, storage drivers, graphics drivers etc.

More to the point, Apple have clearly said that they won't support native booting of third-party operating systems - that doesn't mean they'll they'll actively block anybody who wants to reverse-engineer stuff (like the brave souls trying to make a native Linux distribution) - but it means they can change the specifications on a whim and break everything apart from MacOS.

Under a VM, things are quite different - put simply, the guest OS "sees" whatever hardware platform it was designed for and the hypervisor traps any attempt to access hardware or firmware - and passes those on to the appropriate MacOS drivers. Even the "parallels tools" drivers you install for accelerated graphics etc. are probably fairly modest adaptations of the old Intel versions because they're not "driving hardware" - they're passing messages from the guest OS to MacOS frameworks like Metal.

So, never say never, but Bootcamp on Apple Silicon doesn't make a lot of sense and you shouldn't hold your breath. The future is virtualisation. If any native-booting OS made sense, it would be a bare-metal hypervisor along the lines of ESX.

...and windows-for-arm virtualisation seems to be working well but that's moot until MS actually releases WoA for production use - and currently they're dragging their feet (maybe because of the Qualcomm agreement, maybe because they fancy having a crack at "Microsoft Silicon" at some stage).
 

donawalt

Contributor
Sep 10, 2015
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Those Parallels instructions have not been updated - what is downloaded is NOT a preview version, as I showed further up it is the full retail version, same build! If you would read that Parallels thread I posted, people are using their Windows licenses (I did), and not mentioning any need for Insiders programs, preview version.

I am out on this thread. No sense we keep shouting at each other. You won't believe what I am running, and what you say denies what I see before my eyes. Believe what you want to believe.
 
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Ramonsterrr1981

macrumors member
May 9, 2019
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Those Parallels instructions have not been updated - what is downloaded is NOT a preview version, as I showed further up it is the full retail version, same build! If you would read that Parallels thread I posted, people are using their Windows licenses (I did), and not mentioning any need for Insiders programs, preview version.

I am out on this thread. No sense we keep shouting at each other. You won't believe what I am running, and what you say denies what I see before my eyes. Believe what you want to believe.
Yeah I used these exact instructions from Parallels and it's the full version. I don't have my M1 Mac yet, but can confirm the instructions work to get a full version of the ARM version of Windows 11. I also know plenty of people who managed to get it to run fine. But don't take my word for it: https://www.laptopmag.com/features/i-ran-windows-11-on-an-m1-mac
 

cosmogfd

macrumors member
Jan 12, 2022
44
53
Please show us a link where Microsoft explicitly states this.


This is also wrong. The Qualcomm agreement is for running Windows ARM natively. This is of more interest to those hoping for a bootcamp-type scenario eventually. XDA were the ones who broke the story.
Microsoft was asked by The Register about Windows on ARM running on an M1 in Parallels, they said they do not support it. Nobody here has denied that it works (it clearly does at the moment), the point is you should not be telling others to rely on it until it receives official support from Microsoft. It's not too dissimilar to the people who've installed Windows 11 on unsupported x86 hardware in that it could break at any point if they decide to stop pushing out updates/deactivate your install/etc.

Source: https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/256250/microsoft-says-no-to-woa-support-on-m1-macs and https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/10/windows_11_m1/
 

Ramonsterrr1981

macrumors member
May 9, 2019
59
37
Microsoft was asked by The Register about Windows on ARM running on an M1 in Parallels, they said they do not support it. Nobody here has denied that it works (it clearly does at the moment), the point is you should not be telling others to rely on it until it receives official support from Microsoft. It's not too dissimilar to the people who've installed Windows 11 on unsupported x86 hardware in that it could break at any point if they decide to stop pushing out updates/deactivate your install/etc.

Source: https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/256250/microsoft-says-no-to-woa-support-on-m1-macs and https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/10/windows_11_m1/
I have to agree with you here, and I agree that it’s not wise to rely on something that may break tomorrow. But telling people it doesn’t work when it clearly does, is also wrong.

The conclusion should be: yes, it does work on an M1 Mac and should be able to work for a long time, but as long as there is no official support from Microsoft it may still break at any point in the future. Be it Microsoft purposely blocking it or parallels having to update their software to meet new hardware requirements.

So if this is a workflow you rely on, one of the last intel models Apple offers will be your best bet for now. However, we also know that intel models will probably not get much support in a couple of years from now and Apple will start pushing Apple silicon only features as well. Which means that it’s not a very future proof set-up.

Either way, it’s either you go intel and it will work for as long as you receive software updates or you go Apple silicon and have the risk of your workflow breaking in one way or another. Even though the machine itself is more future proof than the intel model.
 

cosmogfd

macrumors member
Jan 12, 2022
44
53
I have to agree with you here, and I agree that it’s not wise to rely on something that may break tomorrow. But telling people it doesn’t work when it clearly does, is also wrong.

The conclusion should be: yes, it does work on an M1 Mac and should be able to work for a long time, but as long as there is no official support from Microsoft it may still break at any point in the future. Be it Microsoft purposely blocking it or parallels having to update their software to meet new hardware requirements.

So if this is a workflow you rely on, one of the last intel models Apple offers will be your best bet for now. However, we also know that intel models will probably not get much support in a couple of years from now and Apple will start pushing Apple silicon only features as well. Which means that it’s not a very future proof set-up.

Either way, it’s either you go intel and it will work for as long as you receive software updates or you go Apple silicon and have the risk of your workflow breaking in one way or another. Even though the machine itself is more future proof than the intel model.
Yep agreed 100%. Really hoping they support it eventually, it clearly works already so hopefully it won't be long.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,016
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I have to agree with you here, and I agree that it’s not wise to rely on something that may break tomorrow. But telling people it doesn’t work when it clearly does, is also wrong.
Nobody here is saying that it doesn't work.

It's not supported by MS, and it's not clear whether any license you can buy is actually valid - unless and until someone can come up with an announcement by Microsoft to say otherwise.
 
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PBG4 Dude

macrumors 601
Jul 6, 2007
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Please show us a link where Microsoft explicitly states this.
 

anshuvorty

macrumors 68040
Sep 1, 2010
3,483
5,178
California, USA
With the release of the Apple Silicon Macs, you can't virtualize x86 Windows anymore. If you need x86 virtualization, get one of the dwindling # of Intel Macs that still remain, or just forget about virtualization and get a PC box instead.
 
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