Resolved macOS Sonoma is not ready for power users yet.

[fisherking]

Apologies accepted. No problem, I understand. Trust me, I didn't wake up one morning with the intention to create a list of issues just for my own amusement.

if only you'd named your thread relative to what it's about... 🤔

 

[TinyMito]

Just to respond to your post title…statement; those are not power user things. I'm a dev, Sonoma, been fine here.

 

[Raima]

Just want to give some love and thank the OP and everyone else for posting information about issues. It helps inform other users so they can make an educated decision of what may or may not affect them, and if it's worth upgrading now, or holding off till apple or other third party vendors resolve the os migration/upgrade issues.

Having some information is better than having no information.

 

[ewu]

always use new mac os 0.5 year to 1 year later after its offical release. any new mac os could be buggy.

 

[fisherking]

always use new mac os 0.5 year to 1 year later after its offical release. any new mac os could be buggy.

that makes no sense. there is NO single moment when everything is perfect; OS development is an ongoing process, with bugs squashed, new bugs introduced. hence the never-ending world of beta-and-point updates. just saying!....

 

[gank41]

I believe Apple deliberately made these changes, rather than them being accidental bugs. It's unusual for me to encounter so many problems with a system update, which leads me to believe that there might be some underlying issues between certain background processes, such as AI training or iCloud synchronization. It's hard to say for sure. If these issues persist and aren't addressed, I might have to consider downgrading to a previous version.

Whelp. Umm. no.

First of all, I would very much consider myself to be a "Power User". I have a 2020 M1 MBP 16GB/2TB setup and a 2018 Intel Mac mini 64GB/2TB setup and have been running the Sonoma betas all Summer long on my MBP which I used almost exclusively for work (IT Support at a very large hospital org. Citrix, RDP, lots of windows and files open and things) along with using it to record our band with 3 Blue Yeti Mics and then later a Focusrite 18i8 with Logic Pro, again all Summer long during all of the betas... Not only is this MBP the best computer I've ever owned (next to this Intel Mac mini), there's absolutely NO WAY Apple is "deliberately" making these changes. That's some Qanon level thought right there.

Maybe try googling some of the problems you're having. My Mac mini has been on the Ventura Betas all Summer as opposed to the Sonoma Betas, and after I upgraded that one to the macOS 14.1 RC, the Mail app wouldn't open for me. I spent about a week trying to figure it out until I ended up finally figuring it out this morning. You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

 

[MBAir2010]

gank41​

great post and very powerfully MacBooks!
the message was insightful and informative.

I was quick to judge  Sonoma release because minor things did not go my way for a nano second.
what I did to remedy my spoiled-ness was to use a MacBook Air 2010 running Snow leopard all morning this Wednesday, which opened my eyes and made me appreciate what we have now.

 

[TheGeneralist]

that makes no sense. there is NO single moment when everything is perfect; OS development is an ongoing process, with bugs squashed, new bugs introduced. hence the never-ending world of beta-and-point updates. just saying!....

True - but what ewu said makes perfect sense to me nevertheless, because this here is just the standard argument that is frequently abused to justify abysmally poor software quality.

For macOS, I'm absolutely with ewu: if you're looking for the version that optimally supports your workflows and serves as a stable and reliable operating system, it takes at least (!) 0,5 years and up to 1 year for macOS to be ripe enough for daily practical use. For me, the previous years prove this beyond doubt. Last cycle, it was more like 1 year: macOS 13.5.1 was the first Ventura version mature enough for stable use, every single release before contained significant bugs which meant severe hindrances, compared to the relatively stable alternative at that time (latest Monterey incarnation - still full of minor bugs, which proves your sentence above right, but not coming with fatal basic problems as Ventura at that time).

macOS 13.5.1 was released on 17th of August, with Sonoma following on 26th of September.
My conclusion here: for almost 90% of Ventura's software life cycle, it had to be considered a serious downgrade compared to its precedessor, Monterey. Only for a good 10% of its life cycle, it was the better alternative.

 

[fisherking]

True - but what ewu said makes perfect sense to me nevertheless, because this here is just the standard argument that is frequently abused to justify abysmally poor software quality.

For macOS, I'm absolutely with ewu: if you're looking for the version that optimally supports your workflows and serves as a stable and reliable operating system, it takes at least (!) 0,5 years and up to 1 year for macOS to be ripe enough for daily practical use. For me, the previous years prove this beyond doubt. Last cycle, it was more like 1 year: macOS 13.5.1 was the first Ventura version mature enough for stable use, every single release before contained significant bugs which meant severe hindrances, compared to the relatively stable alternative at that time (latest Monterey incarnation - still full of minor bugs, which proves your sentence above right, but not coming with fatal basic problems as Ventura at that time).

macOS 13.5.1 was released on 17th of August, with Sonoma following on 26th of September.
My conclusion here: for almost 90% of Ventura's software life cycle, it had to be considered a serious downgrade compared to its precedessor, Monterey. Only for a good 10% of its life cycle, it was the better alternative.

and this is the fun part: we can both make up anything we want, then choose to believe what we just said 🤔

 

[gank41]

and this is the fun part: we can both make up anything we want, then choose to believe what we just said 🤔

Right? I was gonna say, maybe for THEM that’s been the case… The sky isn’t falling on my end.

 

[JimmyG]

I own a couple of 2020 Mac Minis equipped with M1 processors. However, only one of them currently has Sonoma installed. This particular Mac has its storage and RAM fully maximized. To prevent any potential issues, I always wipe out the HDD and perform a fresh installation. However, despite these precautions, I must admit that it has been causing me headaches lately, experiencing problems in areas that have never occurred with previous macOS releases. Here is a list of tasks that frequently fail, sporadically happening during use.

1. Copy and paste - Sometimes, when I try to paste a previously copied text, it doesn't work on the first try. It can be quite frustrating.

2. Dragging a file from one window to another - Whenever I drag a file, it unexpectedly opens a finder window, even though I have both windows side by side. It interrupts my workflow and can be quite inconvenient.

3. Saving progress - Although the command shows that I have successfully saved a document I'm working on, it doesn't actually save it. I have to repeat the process multiple times or even use "Save As" just to ensure that it is truly saved. It's time-consuming and unreliable.

4. The Missing File - I encounter an issue where I can see a file inside a folder, but when I try to select it within an app or upload it to the cloud, the window that appears doesn't display the file. I have to restart the Finder or even reboot the system to see the files again. This is incredibly annoying and disrupts my work.

5. Stage Manager Dance - Whenever I move from one desktop screen to another using Mission Control, windows start opening and closing without any reason. It's sporadic, but if you rely on Mission Control daily, this issue becomes a constant struggle. It hampers productivity and is incredibly frustrating.

6. Third Party Utilities - It seems that either Apple is intentionally making it difficult for developers to create tools for enhancing the macOS experience, or the security measures simply prevent third-party utilities from functioning properly. I personally rely on various utilities such as CleanShotX, Unclutter, Dropover, Theine, AppCleaner, Pasty, PopClip, Lasso, iStats Menu, Bartender 5, among others, and all of them struggle to keep up with Sonoma. Despite updates that initially seem to fix the issues, they eventually start encountering problems again. It's disheartening to see these useful utilities struggle to function properly.

I'm experiencing some issues with the latest iOS update as well. I believe Apple deliberately made these changes, rather than them being accidental bugs. It's unusual for me to encounter so many problems with a system update, which leads me to believe that there might be some underlying issues between certain background processes, such as AI training or iCloud synchronization. It's hard to say for sure. If these issues persist and aren't addressed, I might have to consider downgrading to a previous version.

I'm considering updating my M1 Max MBP from Monterey and I'm curious if you've got any updates on your reported issues? Also, it's not clear to me which version release of Sonoma you're reporting on here?

Also, regarding your suspicions of Apple making "deliberate" "changes" to make things "difficult" for 3rd-party devs is an odd claim for me to read (as it seems to me, counter-profitable for all parties to strategize that way), can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance!

 

[I WAS the one]

regarding your suspicions of Apple making "deliberate" "changes" to make things "difficult" for 3rd-party devs is an odd claim for me

No worries. Apple has faced scrutiny for various actions, such as promoting HTML5 instead of Adobe Flash, which was dominant in web animations and marketing at the time. They were also caught using software to intentionally slow down phones, including the battery issue which was difficult to conceal. Additionally, they tested the M1 chip on an iPad Pro under a fake name, the A12Z Bionic, as discovered by an MIT student. I could go on, but my suspicions arise from my personal experience. I have two Mac Minis M1, one running Big Sur and the other upgraded to Monterey, and I noticed a significant slowdown with the Mac running Monterey compared to the one running Big Sur. It seems as if they intentionally slow down your device to encourage you to purchase a new one. However, it's possible that my perceptions are mistaken and it's all just in my head.

 

[JimmyG]

No worries. Apple has faced scrutiny for various actions, such as promoting HTML5 instead of Adobe Flash, which was dominant in web animations and marketing at the time. They were also caught using software to intentionally slow down phones, including the battery issue which was difficult to conceal. Additionally, they tested the M1 chip on an iPad Pro under a fake name, the A12Z Bionic, as discovered by an MIT student. I could go on, but my suspicions arise from my personal experience. I have two Mac Minis M1, one running Big Sur and the other upgraded to Monterey, and I noticed a significant slowdown with the Mac running Monterey compared to the one running Big Sur. It seems as if they intentionally slow down your device to encourage you to purchase a new one. However, it's possible that my perceptions are mistaken and it's all just in my head.

Thanks for those insights, but I was more curious about whether you found any resolve for any of your numerous reported issues, and for which OS version you were making those bug reports.

Any updates to report?

 

[I WAS the one]

Thanks for those insights, but I was more curious about whether you found any resolve for any of your numerous reported issues, and for which OS version you were making those bug reports.

Any updates to report?

Some developers have acknowledged that Sonoma is causing issues with their apps, and they are unsure how to resolve these problems. They are suggesting ways to prevent project loss, such as manually saving files or creating duplicates. Some are even suggesting to stop using the problematic apps altogether. While I appreciate their assistance, it is crucial that Apple takes action to address these concerns. The recent Sonoma 14.1 update is causing problems specifically for unsupported Macs, and since my Mac is an M1, I am concerned that M1s may become outdated sooner than anticipated. Currently, the only issues I can resolve are those directly related to Sonoma. I have been following support tips to continue working, but it is clear that further action needs to be taken.

 

[fisherking]

Some developers have acknowledged that Sonoma is causing issues with their apps, and they are unsure how to resolve these problems. They are suggesting ways to prevent project loss, such as manually saving files or creating duplicates. Some are even suggesting to stop using the problematic apps altogether. While I appreciate their assistance, it is crucial that Apple takes action to address these concerns. The recent Sonoma 14.1 update is causing problems specifically for unsupported Macs, and since my Mac is an M1, I am concerned that M1s may become outdated sooner than anticipated. Currently, the only issues I can resolve are those directly related to Sonoma. I have been following support tips to continue working, but it is clear that further action needs to be taken.

every mac OS version ever has had issues. meanwhile, which apps are you having issues with in sonoma? (am glad all of mine are working). can you tell us specificially which developers you are referring to in your post?

apple is not obligated to support 'unsupported macs'... that should be obvious. but the silicon era (including the M1 and beyond) is the present tense of apple hardware; there is no reason to expect that to be 'outdated sooner than anticipated'.

developers have to work with OS changes (and with apple) to move into a new OS. that's on them. so, again (sigh), the sky is not falling... 🙄

 

[JimmyG]

Some developers have acknowledged that Sonoma is causing issues with their apps, and they are unsure how to resolve these problems. They are suggesting ways to prevent project loss, such as manually saving files or creating duplicates. Some are even suggesting to stop using the problematic apps altogether. While I appreciate their assistance, it is crucial that Apple takes action to address these concerns. The recent Sonoma 14.1 update is causing problems specifically for unsupported Macs, and since my Mac is an M1, I am concerned that M1s may become outdated sooner than anticipated. Currently, the only issues I can resolve are those directly related to Sonoma. I have been following support tips to continue working, but it is clear that further action needs to be taken.

Staying with specifics...

Looking at you original list I did a quick search on a couple of items (but not all items) that I think would be in need of repair (based on my immediate needs) at the OS level...

<<
1. Copy and paste - Sometimes, when I try to paste a previously copied text, it doesn't work on the first try. It can be quite frustrating.
>>

...and...

<<
4. The Missing File - I encounter an issue where I can see a file inside a folder, but when I try to select it within an app or upload it to the cloud, the window that appears doesn't display the file. I have to restart the Finder or even reboot the system to see the files again. This is incredibly annoying and disrupts my work.
>>

My first attempts at trying to diagnose/solve these two problems might be these links (respectively)...

Files missing after update to Sonoma - Apple Community

How to fix greyed out files post updating… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

...and...

3 Ways to Fix Copy and Paste Not Working on Mac - The Mac Observer

3 Ways to Fix Copy and Paste Not Working on Mac

In this quick tutorial, Arnold Zafra outlines the troubleshooting steps that you can do to fix copy and paste not working on Mac.

www.macobserver.com

________________________


Again, I would be coming from Monterey and I have been trying to determine how the changes (read: iOS-iffication) to System Preferences panel might have to be "accommodated for" on the user end and whether any of those changes might be precipitating some of your woes.

On a side note: I "get" that Apple turns on such things as iCloud Drives and Notifications by default (perhaps so their users who use these functions don't get confounded trying to turn them on) but for those of us who never use those functions (or, cough, find such things annoying) having to then manually undo the tedium of defaults requires foresight and preparation for the user.

Back to your list...kindly keep us posted if you've found solutions or resolve for your list items! Have you considered itemizing these, er, bug reports and posting them here separately? FWIW, chasing bugs is akin to rustling kittens...

CBS - EDS, an HP Company 'Cat Herders' (TV ad)- YouTube

..."oldie but goodie"?! LOL

 

[I WAS the one]

kindly keep us posted if you've found solutions

I absolutely love your post! Thank you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge. I made the decision to update to Sonoma 14.1 despite the reported issues, driven by my desperation to finally solve my own system problems and fueled by hope. After updating all my apps, performing a backup, upgrading the operating system, and restarting, I must say that all my problems have miraculously disappeared. I meticulously checked each item on my list and can confidently confirm that Sonoma is no longer causing me any issues. Even the apps that were previously misbehaving are now working perfectly. This confirmation solidifies my belief that everything was indeed the fault of Sonoma. The nightmare is finally over!

 

[I WAS the one]

so, again (sigh), the sky is not falling... 🙄

I fail to comprehend the purpose behind your contribution to this topic. Why bother posting something that neither provides assistance nor offers any ideas related to the mentioned problem? Now that the problem has been resolved, I urge you to actively participate as a team player next time and contribute meaningfully, instead of indulging in self-praise for doing nothing.

 

[JimmyG]

Thanks for that update, I WAS the one, glad to read that things got sorted. Looking at some of the other bug topics in this Sonoma sub-forum it looks like I still have some reading ahead of me before deciding on upgrading or not.

 

[fisherking]

I fail to comprehend the purpose behind your contribution to this topic. Why bother posting something that neither provides assistance nor offers any ideas related to the mentioned problem? Now that the problem has been resolved, I urge you to actively participate as a team player next time and contribute meaningfully, instead of indulging in self-praise for doing nothing.

am sorry you can't see the big picture here, but i stand by everything i've said.

if you have problems, this is a great forum to get help. but if you're going to make 'absolute' statements and present conspiracy theories, it should be okay to have others offer debate, or an alternate point-of-view.

anyway, will move on.

 

[I WAS the one]

anyway, will move on

Thank you.

 

[fisherking]

Thank you.

you're quite welcome!