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It's foolish to try and use a TB peripheral with a system that does not have a TB port (particularly if there's no way to get a TB port in the system). The point of using TB based data storage systems is speed rather than convenience. Cost is another factor (TB is new, so perhipherals won't be cheap - think of it this way; LaCie TB disk v. say FW800 or eSATA if there's an ExpressSlot).
Unfortunately the Lacie Little Big Disk proves otherwise: it only comes with TB. Manufacturers see things differently than us. It would be nice if they had something like fw800, usb2 and/or eSATA on it as well so the non-TB people can use it. It's nice to have something like TB for a notebook so you can have the same power on location/studio/etc. as you have at home/office. But there will be people who want to use TB in the field and read the drives when they get back at home or the office (check out Chase Jarvis' workflow and how he backs up things; he'll be one of the people who want this). So either put the other connections on the drive or give those people some sort of adapter so they can read the drives at home/office on computers like the Mac Pro. Performance has absolutely got nothing to do with this. It's all and only about the data.

Are you talking about using multiple laptops (some pre TB manufacture) with newer laptops that do have TB ports with the same peripherals?
No. See the above: work with a notebook in the field for things like a photo shoot, get back and hook the device to the Mac Pro to start editing the material. Which is exactly what people like Chase Jarvis do. The Lacie Little Big Disk is actually aimed at these kind of people. It uses ssd's instead of the more vulnerable hdd's. If you drop the drive or shake it violently the hdd's would be more prone to break than ssd's. It's about ensuring your data is save. Ssd's are not always about performance ;)

Edit: found the Chase Jarvis workflow vid, have a look :)
 
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Read what i wrote here please:
Post 8

PS:
Don't mind about the TB port, will be or not will be isn't vital to me, i've already started a fire mentioning TB! :)
Ah all right. You shouldn't worry about the heat so much, I've had long gaming sessions on my iMac and despite the temperature hitting ~80c it's still perfectly safe (the aluminium backing acts as a heat-sink) . But, if a hardware fault did occur, as you said, you'd have to send the whole machine in, which would be a problem.
 
Unfortunately the Lacie Little Big Disk proves otherwise: it only comes with TB.
It only comes with TB as that's what it's aimed at (sticking with TB because it can be Daisy Chained - think of multiples of this tied together, and use software RAID to increase the throughputs <0 or 10>).

In the case with the LaCie product, including other ports would be nice so users could share that with non-TB equipped systems, as it's a single disk and cannot saturate a TB port. But this would cause problems if those disks are setup in a RAID, hence why they didn't do it (take a member from a RAID and attach it to another system, you can't get the data off of it, and could even wipe it accidentally in an attempt to try and use it).

Manufacturers see things differently than us.
I'm a hardware engineer, so I've decent idea as to how they think. ;) :p

It would be nice if they had something like fw800, usb2 and/or eSATA on it as well so the non-TB people can use it.
See above.

Now for a product that's only meant to be used as a single disk, this would be possible (could also be Daisy Chained via FW800), but at that point, it's better to get disks without TB and just use FW800 (if no FW800 port and TB only on one of the systems), then use a TB to FW800 bridge for that particular machine. They're not out yet, but such devices will (another thread shows a prototype photo of one).

It's nice to have something like TB for a notebook so you can have the same power on location/studio/etc. as you have at home/office. But there will be people who want to use TB in the field and read the drives when they get back at home or the office (check out Chase Jarvis' workflow and how he backs up things; he'll be one of the people who want this).
This is precisely what I've been saying (what shared peripherals between desktops and laptops for video professionals).

An independent film maker can take the laptop and a TB peripheral (i.e. Promise R4 or R6) out on location, and store the RAW footage. Then get back, and connect the TB peripheral to the desktop and start editing.

This is a simple concept, and who stands to benefit the most from TB.

So either put the other connections on the drive or give those people some sort of adapter so they can read the drives at home/office on computers like the Mac Pro. Performance has absolutely got nothing to do with this. It's all and only about the data.
If only one system has TB, then using TB bridges is really a waste (better to stick with USB, FW, or eSATA) due to cost.

Now if there's multiple systems with TB, then using TB peripherals makes sense (can also use some products with non-TB equipped systems via bridge adapters). But this is when there's 2+ systems using TB involved, such as the independent film maker example.
 
8<

In the case with the LaCie product, including other ports would be nice so users could share that with non-TB equipped systems, as it's a single disk and cannot saturate a TB port. But this would cause problems if those disks are setup in a RAID, hence why they didn't do it (take a member from a RAID and attach it to another system, you can't get the data off of it, and could even wipe it accidentally in an attempt to try and use it).
I actually had to read that a couple of times to understand what you're talking about, I hope I'm understanding it correctly.

Lacie knows what RAID is, it has a lot of products that use it. Lacie Little Big Disk is just a case with 2 ssd's in a RAID0 array. The only thing any OS will see is just 1 disk since the RAID is done completely internally, the computer has absolutely nothing to do with that. Lacie has a wide range of such RAID products with more than 1 kind of interface (most have usb2 and fw800) that are used with various computers without any problems.

But you do not seem to be talking about this kind of RAID. There is only 1 use case where your explanation is valid: it requires multiple Lacie Little Big Disks hooked up to a computer where you RAID them together with Disk Utility (if that is even possible...). This use case does not make a lot of sense. It's just a very bad choice, only stupid people that don't know what they're doing or maybe somebody who's very very desperate would go for something like this. If you need something like this you need to be looking at other solutions. TB is meant to bring some of the workstation capabilities to notebooks, not turn notebooks into complete render farms.

Only having TB is just because of marketing. Looking at the demo's they seem to be using it as a temporary storage, like a scratch disk. You don't need to be able to read the scratch disk in another machine so there is no need for other connections. If they would use it for permanent storage you simply need other connections especially when you're using a standard where the creator is very vague about expansion cards.

An independent film maker can take the laptop and a TB peripheral (i.e. Promise R4 or R6) out on location, and store the RAW footage. Then get back, and connect the TB peripheral to the desktop and start editing.
That would require the desktop to have a TB port and that is just the problem: we don't know whether there will be any expansion cards. It will help the acceptance of TB a lot if there are going to be expansion cards (upgrading to a new machine is not a very feasible thing when it is a workstation like the Mac Pro...too expensive).

If only one system has TB, then using TB bridges is really a waste (better to stick with USB, FW, or eSATA) due to cost.
Life is not always about costs so this is not a very smart thing to say. It's like with ssd's: some find it a waste of money but others happily pay for it because it makes their life easier. In some cases using things like adapters even saves money. I do agree that for most people it will be very likely that using usb, fw and/or esata is cheaper. We'll have to see how it'll go.

@MythicFrost: the iMac being a all-in-one has other disadvantages than just being hotter. Expandability can be a problem too (try adding disks or upgrade the non-ssd model to a ssd). The iMac also has a glass plate in front of a glossy panel. This means it will have a lot of reflections which not many people like. If you want the performance of the 27" iMac but do not like the glossy display there is only one option left: the Mac Pro :( If the iMac would have allowed easy disk & memory upgrading and antiglare I'd probably would have chosen it over a Mac Pro (it's a very beautiful sleek machine!).
 
@MythicFrost: the iMac being a all-in-one has other disadvantages than just being hotter. Expandability can be a problem too (try adding disks or upgrade the non-ssd model to a ssd). The iMac also has a glass plate in front of a glossy panel. This means it will have a lot of reflections which not many people like. If you want the performance of the 27" iMac but do not like the glossy display there is only one option left: the Mac Pro :( If the iMac would have allowed easy disk & memory upgrading and antiglare I'd probably would have chosen it over a Mac Pro (it's a very beautiful sleek machine!).

Yes, perfectly, as i've already said.
But here seems that the focus still remains OT on the TB port...:confused:
 
I was sarcastic.
I was trying only to put back in topic the thread in a gentle way!
I will not decide to buy or not to buy a MP (now or later that will be) only or mainly for the presence of a TB port!

Sorry Rics. I must have been feeling serious a that moment. Subtlety was lost.
 
All I want to say is Hellhammer should be a mod of some type, I see him helping people all the time.
 
Lacie knows what RAID is, it has a lot of products that use it. Lacie Little Big Disk is just a case with 2 ssd's in a RAID0 array. The only thing any OS will see is just 1 disk since the RAID is done completely internally, the computer has absolutely nothing to do with that. Lacie has a wide range of such RAID products with more than 1 kind of interface (most have usb2 and fw800) that are used with various computers without any problems.
Trust me, I know how all of this works (array is seen as a single logical volume), as I specialize in storage system design. ;)

What you need to realize about LaCie, is they're oriented as a consumer product company, not for professionals. This is why their TB disk offering is a single disk (they're after the convenience portion of the market as well as try and tempt a few pros as well). So they came up with the compromise of single disks which can potentially be used in both markets (professional use = Daisy Chained and set in a software RAID configuration). LaCie also uses consumer grade drives, which tend not to fare well under the abuse of RAID.

Promise OTOH, aimed their R6 & R4 products at the professional. Instead of a single disk, it's a multi-disk enclosure with a proper hardware RAID card built in, and connecting to the system via a TB port. The user can select drives themselves (allows for the use of enterprise grade drives, which are needed to be stable on a hardware RAID card), and are designed to take the abuse.

Though this costs more, it allows for more configuration options and stability (performance can exceed the LaCie products due to other levels as well as Daisy Chaining multiple enclosures). All of which are what the professional really needs.

But you do not seem to be talking about this kind of RAID. There is only 1 use case where your explanation is valid: it requires multiple Lacie Little Big Disks hooked up to a computer where you RAID them together with Disk Utility (if that is even possible...). This use case does not make a lot of sense.
I know it sounds like a special case, but in order to design the product correctly, they had to be sure it was supported to fully meet the TB specification (due to the fact TB supports Daisy Chaining of devices).

Now in LaCie's case, this won't be the common use for their products (meant to be used primarily as a single disk), as they're aiming at the consumer laptop user (devices and AIO's as well; even desktops once they're equipped with TB, by whatever means in order to share peripherals with the laptops and devices that support TB).

I do expect a PCIe card at some point, but it will take some time in order to get a spec created to get DisplayPort data to the TB card, and part of the delay will be intentional by Intel as a means of assisting adoption by preventing the confusion over data only v. data + video signal capability over a TB cable.

It's just a very bad choice, only stupid people that don't know what they're doing or maybe somebody who's very very desperate would go for something like this. If you need something like this you need to be looking at other solutions. TB is meant to bring some of the workstation capabilities to notebooks, not turn notebooks into complete render farms.
You'd be surprised at how many video/graphics pros don't know about proper storage systems. They end up buying an expensive MP, add in memory, and use stripe sets for say 12+TB of critical data, and either an insufficient backup system, or none at all. :eek: Which is just crazy. But it's far more common than you may realize, due to sites like DigiLloyd (here).

Only having TB is just because of marketing. Looking at the demo's they seem to be using it as a temporary storage, like a scratch disk. You don't need to be able to read the scratch disk in another machine so there is no need for other connections. If they would use it for permanent storage you simply need other connections especially when you're using a standard where the creator is very vague about expansion cards.
TB is extremely new, so it's going to take time if it takes off.

As per reading a scratch disk, you're right - totally foolish. But using a laptop in the field to record RAW footage (use a TB disk as the storage location), then take it back to the office for editing, isn't. Just hook up the TB disk and go (better to use a redundant system for this; single disk should be duplicated prior to editing, in case that disk dies during the editing process - otherwise all the RAW footage is gone, and the client will be shall we say... upset...).

That would require the desktop to have a TB port and that is just the problem: we don't know whether there will be any expansion cards. It will help the acceptance of TB a lot if there are going to be expansion cards (upgrading to a new machine is not a very feasible thing when it is a workstation like the Mac Pro...too expensive).
See above.

As per the TB chip, it's not that expensive. If it were, laptops and devices wouldn't use it (Intel knew it had to be cheap from the beginning in order for manufacturers to even think about implementing it).

Life is not always about costs so this is not a very smart thing to say. It's like with ssd's: some find it a waste of money but others happily pay for it because it makes their life easier. In some cases using things like adapters even saves money. I do agree that for most people it will be very likely that using usb, fw and/or esata is cheaper. We'll have to see how it'll go.
You're thinking like a consumer/home user/enthusiast/hobbyist, where this sort of thinking can hold true. But costs matter here for many, as there's always a limit (particularly those on a budget). For example, image that a TB equipped LaCie is $100USD more than the eSATA equivalent. Adoption at this price would be difficult vs. say the "pay to play" rate is only $25USD.

This is especially true for the professional market, where they usually tend to run a cost/benefit analysis before embarking on any upgrade (those that don't, are individuals/SMB's, and not doing so can be detrimental to their business. Even to the point of putting them out of business. Which is what motivates the cost/benefit approach. But as they're earning a living with it, they're actually willing to pay more than most home users/enthusiasts are (i.e. they'd actually be willing to pay the $100USD premium for example, where the consumer market would more likely balk at it and skip it until the price fell).
 
Sorry Rics. I must have been feeling serious a that moment. Subtlety was lost.

No probs! We don't see our eyes when we wrote here! :)

All I want to say is Hellhammer should be a mod of some type, I see him helping people all the time.

I'm a newcomer in this forum, but from the little that i've seen i agree with you.
+1 on Hellhammer as mod!

Btw since this thread i'll not more buy or want to listen about a device that have/will have the TB port! I've enough about it!
(The last famous words, the next year you will see my home that will open only with TB ports and TB keys :D )
 
I've not yet bought the MacPro, at this point i'll wait June for some announce.
Yes, the june event will be software releated only, but we can't be always sure with apple, so i think that waiting a month will be effortless.

In the meantime, over the italian refurb store appeared a quad MP 2.8 for €2039 ($2919).
I know all about the thread for upgrade the 2.8 quad to a 3.2 six cores but after the buy i'll not put my hands to the mp and it's not my intention to void the warranty altough i know well how to manage hardware parts.
This buy will be a consistent money investment, sincerely i don't want to play into the risky area with warranty and technics errors for the cpu upgrade.

So the options now are:

-Buy this refurbished one, wait the end of the warranty, then buy and plug the 3.2 six cores cpu.

or

-Wait the June Apple event just to be sure for no-surprises and then buy directly the 3.33 six cores MP. (Honestly i find the six cores the more convenient for price/performance)

I don't hide that i'm more inclined for the second option as maybe it's a more longtime product where i'll not put my hands out of the RAM and HD placings of course.

I'm just curious about your thought about the two options! ;)
 
Just buying the 3.33GHz Hex core would be more cost effective I suspect (not sure what the pricing is locally, but suspect refurbished + Hex core CPU = more funds than buying a model with that CPU in it). I realize that CPU's can be had cheap once used parts hit places like eBay, but that may take a while. But you'll also get a full warranty buying it from Apple (less aggravation in this regard).

Just a thought. ;)
 
What you need to realize about LaCie, is they're oriented as a consumer product company, not for professionals.
You might want to take a much closer look at their products. If they're aiming for consumers they're doing it completely wrong. No consumer will every buy such hardware, it is just way too expensive and they won't even know a need for it. A lot of Lacie's products are aimed at the professional, especially their display segment (displays, colorimeters, etc.). Take a look at peoples take on ssds and don't be surprised to hear they don't want them because they are too expensive.

This is why their TB disk offering is a single disk (they're after the convenience portion of the market as well as try and tempt a few pros as well).
Again, take a better look at the product. It has 2 disks, not 1.

Though this costs more, it allows for more configuration options and stability (performance can exceed the LaCie products due to other levels as well as Daisy Chaining multiple enclosures). All of which are what the professional really needs.
That is a completely wrong assumption since there are many devices which are a complete solution. The Mac being the most obvious example as well as UTM devices and many others. Companies just want to buy a complete solution from the manufacturer. They don't want to build or look for parts themselves. They just want to configure the device. Warranty & support is a big issue in this regard. Not every company will help you to its full extend if you did not buy every part from them (which is quite obvious, you can't support everything). Also bear in mind that professionals are mostly users, not sysadmins.

You'd be surprised at how many video/graphics pros don't know about proper storage systems. They end up buying an expensive MP, add in memory, and use stripe sets for say 12+TB of critical data, and either an insufficient backup system, or none at all. :eek: Which is just crazy.
I'm a sysadmin, I know how users are like ;) Which is also why I know why professionals are users too. And that is why they don't know about the IT stuff. They rely on others to give them advice on the setup they need.

You're thinking like a consumer/home user/enthusiast/hobbyist, where this sort of thinking can hold true. But costs matter here for many, as there's always a limit (particularly those on a budget). For example, image that a TB equipped LaCie is $100USD more than the eSATA equivalent. Adoption at this price would be difficult vs. say the "pay to play" rate is only $25USD.
That's what you'd expect but in reality this isn't true at all. It still amazes me how unbelievably easy it is to sell solutions to companies. You just need to explain why they need it, the pros, the cons, etc. and they'll go for it. Some don't but that's mostly because there isn't enough budget. Differences of say 100 USD is mostly considered to be nothing. They'll pay the extra 100USD if it is the better choice. It is something that is mostly a key part of their business so they want something that works properly. If it doesn't it will cost them a lot more.

Consumer/home users do not think like that. They simply want something that is the cheapest. A good example would be Macs, most people will complain that a Dell/Acer is cheaper and buy that instead of the Mac. Even though the Mac is the better choice for them.

This is especially true for the professional market, where they usually tend to run a cost/benefit analysis before embarking on any upgrade (those that don't, are individuals/SMB's, and not doing so can be detrimental to their business.
Shockingly most do not. It takes too much time for such an in-depth analysis for that. It also isn't their job, it's the IT guys job. They just want to hear solution A, B and C and then choose between them. Again, they're professionals in their own area, not sysadmins.

@Rics: the June event will likely be about Lion. The Intel cpus that would make an update for the Mac Pro interesting are due somewhere in q4 2011 I believe. That would make for a new Mac Pro by the end of the year or somewhere early next year. But this is Apple so everything is a gamble :p
 
You might want to take a much closer look at their products. If they're aiming for consumers they're doing it completely wrong. No consumer will every buy such hardware, it is just way too expensive and they won't even know a need for it. A lot of Lacie's products are aimed at the professional, especially their display segment (displays, colorimeters, etc.). Take a look at peoples take on ssds and don't be surprised to hear they don't want them because they are too expensive.
When I go and look at all their drive offerings, the only one that I see as a serious enterprise system, is the 12Big Rack series. That's it. The rest is consumer grade to me.

Given the discussion was on storage, I left their LCD displays out of it (but I do agree those are professional grade).

Again, take a better look at the product. It has 2 disks, not 1.
I apologize, it is a 2 disk system set in a stripe set (pair of Intel 510's).

But this is still limited (what I think of with enterprise gear, is 4+ disks, hot swappable bays, and support for levels such as 10/5/6/50/60 via hardware, not software, and push some serious bandwidth). I guess I've spent too much time working with rack systems.

This is why I'm not convinced that the majority of their drive products are enterprise based.

That is a completely wrong assumption since there are many devices which are a complete solution. The Mac being the most obvious example as well as UTM devices and many others. Companies just want to buy a complete solution from the manufacturer. They don't want to build or look for parts themselves. They just want to configure the device. Warranty & support is a big issue in this regard. Not every company will help you to its full extend if you did not buy every part from them (which is quite obvious, you can't support everything). Also bear in mind that professionals are mostly users, not sysadmins.
I'm not talking about hunting down a bunch of parts and putting something together.

I'm talking about professionals should be storing their data on redundant storage solutions, as stripe sets just aren't safe enough. And there are plenty of turn-key units available in all sorts of sizes and configurations (rack vs. tower, 4 to 24, on occasion 36 disks in a single enclosure,...). Just stuff the interface card in (i.e Fibre Channel), attach it to the enclosure, configure the array (comes with disks), and go.

I'm a sysadmin, I know how users are like ;) Which is also why I know why professionals are users too. And that is why they don't know about the IT stuff. They rely on others to give them advice on the setup they need.
I more than realize this, and know that some independents will do a cost/benefit analysis. It may not be as complex as one done by a Fortune 500 company, but they're not "flying blind".

For those that do, they're taking a risk by not researching things themselves or paying for a proper consultant (what they're there for - give proper advice and recommendations to those that cannot do it themselves). If they can't understand it and can't bring themselves to contact someone who can advice them properly, they're going to end up paying for it in the end (either buy more than they need, or running in insufficient solution that's going to cost them their data, and both translate into real money).

It still amazes me how unbelievably easy it is to sell solutions to companies. You just need to explain why they need it, the pros, the cons, etc. and they'll go for it. Some don't but that's mostly because there isn't enough budget. Differences of say 100 USD is mostly considered to be nothing. They'll pay the extra 100USD if it is the better choice. It is something that is mostly a key part of their business so they want something that works properly. If it doesn't it will cost them a lot more.
A $100 here or there isn't much, but that estimate was also based on a single mechanical disk.

I definitely know what you're talking about with professionals listening to the sales pitch by whatever company they're on the phone with. But they don't realize what they're in for, and can easily be "over sold" tech that doesn't do what they need, and costs a fortune. I've seen this before professionally (i.e. user needs a modest DAS system, but end up buying a Fibre Channel solution that's way beyond their needs). This could cause a small company to go bankrupt, particularly if this purchase is followed by a lean period of work.

What I always try to remind people, is the corporate sales person is there to sell them something, even if it's not the right fit. A consultant doesn't have this sort of pressure, which allows them to advice to the correct solution within the specific parameters.

Consumer/home users do not think like that. They simply want something that is the cheapest. A good example would be Macs, most people will complain that a Dell/Acer is cheaper and buy that instead of the Mac. Even though the Mac is the better choice for them.
For consumers, I agree. Unfortunately, I see independent pros and SMB's use the same sort of thinking, and it's detrimental in the long run.

The old adage "You get what you pay for" certainly comes to mind, as I've seen it proven time and time again.

Now if you consider this mentality, this is where I see LaCie falling in at. They target the independent graphics pros, and sell the expensive monitors (they realize they need these, as well as the colorimeter). But in terms of storage, there's a serious gap in their product line. It goes from the consumer grade to the 12Big, and what they have in between, I'm not impressed with (BigQuadra's OK, but you can do a lot better; more importantly, there's nothing in the middle, such as an 8x disk solution, before one gets to the 12 disk gear).

Most of this type of user only needs to run a DAS system, not a NAS or SAN.
 
In the meantime that i'm waiting for a MP refresh i've added 8gb ram and a 7200 wd black 320gb hd to my girlfriend MBP 5.5 13" (core2duo 2.26) that previously had 2gb ram and a 5400 drive.

All i can say is: night and day!

I'm really impressed on the difference adding ram and changing the drive.
I spent only 120€ for an impressive gain in performance!

Now i can wait for the new MP without too much pain.
 
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