MacPro vs Dell Workstation

[nanofrog]

In the end they just replaced a 4 year old workstation with a new one.
I guess I got a good deal but no more warranty on that replacement.
Were done with Dell for good.

Unfortunately, the warranty support is usually provide by a separate company (contract between the vendor and provider company), then they find a sub-contractor to handle the work when the service order comes in. They may also provide the phone support, but that can also be yet another separate company (not sure if Dell has gone to outsourcing that or not, but HP did last I knew).

It can be a mess (poor communication, as in nothing but a work order), between Tech Support provider and the person actually doing the work. Worst yet, those poor guys aren't paid well, if at all (check out the complaints of Barrister Global International, and you should get a clue as to how it all works, and how the contractors get screwed).

That's not to say that some of the actual work providers aren't that good (ham fisted morons that break things during assembly/dis-assembly for example or aren't fully qualified to do the job), but most are caught in the middle, and really will try to do the best job they can (sounds like what happened in your situation).

By and large, most of the complaining about graphics cards I see in various forums aren't from professionals running CAD/CAM or 3D visualization software, but gamers. Nothing wrong with playing games, but casting the argument as "Mac Pros don't have high end pro graphics" when a lot of the stuff that really needs that type of card doesn't even run on OS X, is a bit suspect.

I'm not aware of much in the way of OS X software that's even designed to run with professional graphics cards, so that's a problem for the pros as I see it (might want to use pro graphics, but what's the point if the software won't utilize the card if they buy it?).

Lets be honest - the Apple universe has been oriented around entertainment and the creative arts almost from the beginning. If you need to run heavyweight scientific/engineering applications, you are likely to be forced into Windows or another UNIX anyway, cost of a Dell vs Mac aside.

For the most part, definitely. But there seems to be some out there on the OS X side (i.e. medical imaging, and life sciences; even seen vendors with such things as OS X based Electronics Design Automation software as well).

But it is a small % of MP users AFAIK.

And I don't recall seeing any Dell or HP remotely close to a MP price that was designed like a Mac Pro from a packaging standpoint. I've seen servers that weren't that elegant inside.

The internals have been different from model to model for years. Some have been decent, some crap (could even be influenced by say it's Monday morning, and the assembly line person was hung over type of thing).

But so long as the airflow isn't impeded (fully complies with specifications, and works as it should), other aspects may be more important (IT staff that know how to deal with the smallest or strangest issue, performance, and options for example).

To me, it comes down to the best fit for the usage (hardware + software; support, operations, training, software licensing, and equipment costs taken into account as well).

 

[Buildbright]

Do not forget the $700 raid card if you need it.

 

[Honbe]

My company (CAD for automotive with Catia and Unigraphics NX) has about 70 Dell workstations and complete server infrastructure. Server infrastructure has been more or less OK, if not, 4hrs service did the magic.
On the other side the workstations line has been and is a disaster. So many service visits (NBD) during the first three years. After three years, the hardware has been falling apart (motherboards, graphic cards, etc.). It almost seems they build it to last exactly three years. The resale value after three years is very low.
Now the question is, what are the other choices. We cannot use Mac Pros, many other workstation manufacturers are out of game. As we have to use certified WSs for each particular CAD system, the remaining choices are either IBM or HP.

Back to your question: go with Dell in case you will purchase new WS after max. three years. That means if you know that your future needs will request to purchase a new WS in this time frame AND if you can live without OSX. Otherwise the Mac Pro is still better build quality and will keep higher resale value.

 

[mBox]

Back to your question: go with Dell in case you will purchase new WS after max. three years. That means if you know that your future needs will request to purchase a new WS in this time frame AND if you can live without OSX. Otherwise the Mac Pro is still better build quality and will keep higher resale value.

I would consider BOXX Technology. We've had 2 last as long as 4 years now the recent still going strong in its 4th.
Were done with Dell and honestly a Mac Pro Boot Camped would last longer.
You might run into some Boot Camp issues during OS updates but still the computer lasts wayyyy longer than most.
Still using G5s and earliest Mac Pro for everything else at work.
Never had a mother board issue just display card, RAM, HD and optical.

 

[nanofrog]

Do not forget the $700 raid card if you need it.

Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old.

I would consider BOXX Technology.

Looks like a good vendor (not too keen on the OC'ed, water cooled bit on one of them), but it might not be on the Qualified Systems Lists of the software they're using (haven't looked into it further, so I'm just mentioning this).

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (thank's Oracle... ).

My company (CAD for automotive with Catia and Unigraphics NX) has about 70 Dell workstations and complete server infrastructure. Server infrastructure has been more or less OK, if not, 4hrs service did the magic.
On the other side the workstations line has been and is a disaster. So many service visits (NBD) during the first three years. After three years, the hardware has been falling apart (motherboards, graphic cards, etc.). It almost seems they build it to last exactly three years. The resale value after three years is very low.
Now the question is, what are the other choices. We cannot use Mac Pros, many other workstation manufacturers are out of game. As we have to use certified WSs for each particular CAD system, the remaining choices are either IBM or HP.

You can thank the fact they're using ODM's for workstations, just as they do the consumer systems. Yay.

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review, with a shot of the internals). Of course, it's not cheap if you buy all of the options through HP, which is no different than most other vendors. Apple and HP seem to be on top of the premium upgrade pricing though, so you've been warned.

 

[Honbe]

Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old.


Looks like a good vendor (not too keen on the OC'ed, water cooled bit on one of them), but it might not be on the Qualified Systems Lists of the software they're using (haven't looked into it further, so I'm just mentioning this).

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (thank's Oracle... ).


You can thank the fact they're using ODM's for workstations, just as they do the consumer systems. Yay.

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review, with a shot of the internals). Of course, it's not cheap if you buy all of the options through HP, which is no different than most other vendors. Apple and HP seem to be on top of the premium upgrade pricing though, so you've been warned.

Yeah, after latest experience with Dell we have no other choice. We are testing some HP workstations now. Most of our customers already made the switch or started it.

 

[nanofrog]

Yeah, after latest experience with Dell we have no other choice. We are testing some HP workstations now. Most of our customers already made the switch or started it.

There can be a bit of hit and miss with HP too, but it's no where near what Dell has become in the workstation market.

But generally speaking, they seem to be better built than Dell's offerings as of late (say since 2008 for sure).

What about IBM or Lenovo? Not on the Qualified Sytems List?
Just curious (not seen one in years, so I don't know what the current build quality is).

I'm still bummed about the loss of the Ultra series, as those were still built like the proverbial tanks of systems past. Just newer hardware.

 

[talmy]

Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old.

I posted to the thread when it was new, and now it reappears!

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (thank's Oracle... ).

I had one of these. I guess Sun had trouble selling them because we got them at a bargain price. We tossed Solaris and installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop. I always thought it was shoddy construction -- much preferred the Dells.

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review, with a shot of the internals).

My employer is buying the less expensive Z400s which are a conventional design and much less expensive! But I'm concerned about HPs latest rumblings about selling off their computer line. Don't know if that's consumer only all the whole hardware operation.

I was buying Dell systems for home use 5-10 years ago. On the commercial grade ones Dell offered extensions to the 3 year (standard) warranty for up to 5 years of coverage. Never had any problems with an Dell desktop system except for one which had a hard drive fail in 2 years. I'm still using an old Optiplex. OTOH of the three iMacs I've had over 3 years (maximum extended warranty) one died shortly after 3 years and a second ran for 6 but was limping near the end. I don't know I'd trust an investment in a high end Mac Pro which Apple only considers worth of a 1 year standard warranty and won't go beyond 3.

 

[nanofrog]

I had one of these. I guess Sun had trouble selling them because we got them at a bargain price. We tossed Solaris and installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop. I always thought it was shoddy construction -- much preferred the Dells.

Hmm.. I liked what I saw, and I recall I wasn't alone.

As per them going away, they I suspect they had to cut the prices too deep (understand that they didn't do what they expected with Open Solaris), and Oracle dumped them due to insufficient profit.

Oh well. Another one bites the dust....

My employer is buying the less expensive Z400s which are a conventional design and much less expensive! But I'm concerned about HPs latest rumblings about selling off their computer line. Don't know if that's consumer only all the whole hardware operation.

You, me, and a lot of other workstation users, as that segment is handled by the PSG, not the ESG.

Hopefully, they're just feeling out the market, or worst case (they do sell of the PSG), will shift the workstations to the ESG. It would be a mistake to kill them off IMO, as they're still needed, and perhaps a slight increase (though SP rather than DP models) as clients on clusters (still need the GPU power).

I was buying Dell systems for home use 5-10 years ago. On the commercial grade ones Dell offered extensions to the 3 year (standard) warranty for up to 5 years of coverage. Never had any problems with an Dell desktop system except for one which had a hard drive fail in 2 years. I'm still using an old Optiplex. OTOH of the three iMacs I've had over 3 years (maximum extended warranty) one died shortly after 3 years and a second ran for 6 but was limping near the end. I don't know I'd trust an investment in a high end Mac Pro which Apple only considers worth of a 1 year standard warranty and won't go beyond 3.

I know what you mean. Apple's always been bad in the enterprise market (support isn't up to enterprise standards, nor did they ever provide a full range of integrated solutions - some smatterings of hardware here and there, but not full, and what they did, was half-baked).

Unfortunately, even Dell's business systems and workstation systems are suffering (gotten too cheap, and don't last as they once did from what I'm seeing). For example, ethernet controllers gone in under a year (100% failure rate of all systems purchased which was over 30, not the odd system or 2).

 

[mBox]

I know what you mean. Apple's always been bad in the enterprise market (support isn't up to enterprise standards, nor did they ever provide a full range of integrated solutions - some smatterings of hardware here and there, but not full, and what they did, was half-baked).

I guess it depends where you are. Here in mid west Canada we've had decent to great support outside of the one year mark. Then add the fact that the Mac Pros simply just dont die that easily.
In most cases and I think Apple knew this, the user tend to learn about the system (similar to the days of me fidgeting around with Windows NT/2000 installations and hardware) and can easily fix on their own.
Now of course I deal with close to a dozen Mac Pros so I probably dont count as Enterprise, but I can easily handle my dozen as oppose to the 50 IT staff to 1000 HPs my corporation deals with

 

[nanofrog]

I guess it depends where you are. Here in mid west Canada we've had decent to great support outside of the one year mark.

I'm talking about next business day, same day, and especially 4hr on-site service (needed for critical systems), regardless of distance, for 3 years minimum. Apple doesn't do that, and what on-site service I'm aware of, customers were made to feel as if they were being granted an extreme favor.

Not the best way to treat enterprise customers IMO. Just saying...

I can easily handle my dozen as oppose to the 50 IT staff to 1000 HPs my corporation deals with

Hmm... 1:12 staff to MP, vs. 1:20 for the HP's.

Then there's the question, How many times are those issues User Error vs. hardware failures? I'm just accustomed to PC's having a lot more user issues than any other, when all things are equal (enterprise systems, software is well written, IT staff have implemented good security on their end,...).

 

[toxic]

this thread is a bit old, but...

If you need/want to run Windows-only stuff like ProE, IDEAS, 3DMax that needs specific high-end graphics cards, then get a Dell or HP. If you like OS X and run creative apps, get a MP.

By and large, most of the complaining about graphics cards I see in various forums aren't from professionals running CAD/CAM or 3D visualization software, but gamers. Nothing wrong with playing games, but casting the argument as "Mac Pros don't have high end pro graphics" when a lot of the stuff that really needs that type of card doesn't even run on OS X, is a bit suspect.

Lets be honest - the Apple universe has been oriented around entertainment and the creative arts almost from the beginning. If you need to run heavyweight scientific/engineering applications, you are likely to be forced into Windows or another UNIX anyway, cost of a Dell vs Mac aside.

"creative arts" encompasses 3D modeling. Macs can run Blender, Cinema4D, Maya, and SketchUp Pro (among others), and AutoCAD (not exactly a creative app, but still relevant) now has a Mac version. Rhino is also supposedly coming to Mac in the next few years. of all of these titles, only C4D does not benefit from workstation graphics.

the problem? only NVidia offers workstation cards for Mac, and the drivers universally suck. NONE of them, even the Quadro 4000 with the best drivers of any Mac Quadro card, flat-out outperforms the fastest desktop card option (currently the 5870) or even the aging GTX 285. in other words, anyone doing creative 3D work on the Mac is getting gypped.

 

[Honbe]

There can be a bit of hit and miss with HP too, but it's no where near what Dell has become in the workstation market.

But generally speaking, they seem to be better built than Dell's offerings as of late (say since 2008 for sure).

What about IBM or Lenovo? Not on the Qualified Sytems List?
Just curious (not seen one in years, so I don't know what the current build quality is).

I'm still bummed about the loss of the Ultra series, as those were still built like the proverbial tanks of systems past. Just newer hardware.

IBM is on both Catia and NX lists, but I've never seen Lenovo there. We had IBM workastations before when running Catia 4 on Unix. Solid stations and good in cold winters, too -

 

[vitzr]

There is no question that Apple charges a very hefty premium just because it's a Mac, but if you can afford it the machine is simply stellar.

Since I've used Mac Desktops for my engineering work for years, I simply cannot imagine not having one.

 

[deconstruct60]

IBM is on both Catia and NX lists, but I've never seen Lenovo there.

First, IBM doesn't even sell workstations anymore.

Second, the Catia compatiblity list for Windows 7 doesn't even list IBM (not surprising since don't make them. ), but does list Lenovo.

http://www.3ds.com/support/certified-hardware/windows-certified-workstations/


Didn't look up NX.

We had IBM workastations before when running Catia 4 on Unix. Solid stations and good in cold winters, too -

In addition to the Intellistations moving on to Lenovo as Thinkstations, the POWER based workstations have disappeared. Linux has driven the POWER, SPARC, Itanium/HP-UX workstations completely out of the market. No one is seriously positioning single user RISC unix anymore . The software still gets sold because folks have huge sunk costs in them, but almost all of the customers are transitioning to x86 ones over time.


P.S. Not 100% sure this is NX but again.... looking for an OS that will be supported in next couple of years (Windows 7 ) ... No IBM, Yes Lenovo.

http://support.industrysoftware.aut...tion/index.php?page=2&p=o&v1=00010&status=ics

P.P.S. If HP spins off as an Indy (e.g., like Agilent ) or gets picked up by someone with better alignment (e.g., Samsung which makes components. ) all the certs will move just like when IBM spun out their boxes.

 

[Gomff]

I'm working on a 3d graphics job at the moment and I need more rendering muscle. Much as I would have liked to upgrade my 2008 Mac Pro, we have more important concerns money wise, so instead I ordered a fast, over clocked, water cooled, fully tested PC which is going to handle rendering.

The cost was a quarter of the new Mac Pro's but the performance is about 70% that of the top of the range MPs. Essentially, I did this I order to keep using my current Mac as my main machine for a bit longer. It's still fast enough for most things but rendering times could be shorter.

When it does become time to upgrade my main machine, I honestly dont know what I'll do. For me, it has always been about the superior and hassle free environment of OS X but then Apple brought out Lion which has broken quite lot in 3d app land. Now windows is returning to the top in terms of performance despite being ugly and it feels like my Mac days are coming to an end out of necessity more than anything else.

I've yet to Find a PC manufacturer that builds PC's as well as Apple build Mac Pro's. They just don't seem to age well at all, and resale value is poor in comparison. I really wish Apple was offering value like they did back in 2008.

 

[wonderspark]

The thing about the Mac Pro is that Apple spent so much energy making it LOOK amazing that it will always LOOK like a better machine, but underneath the pretty shell I think PCs have the advantage today. I love Macs, but they don't always "just work" any better than PCs. Both can be brilliant or bollocks.

If someone took the time to make a PC case as nice as the Mac Pro, I bet people would keep them going longer, and the resale value would stay higher as well. When something still looks awesome after a few years, it's hard to let it go. That's why classic cars and your favorite outfit stay around until the very end, while the junky looking stuff gets tossed much sooner. Apple has this (and people) figured out quite well.

That said, if one can understand that any machine will be replaced or overhauled every few years, it's far more efficient to build an awesome PC than an awesome Mac right now. The question is whether or not one will still feel "cool" if they build a PC. I've used far more PCs than Macs over the years, and what's worth noting is that most of the praise sent my way has been for what came OUT of the machine, not which one I used to make stuff.

 

[mBox]

I'm talking about next business day, same day, and especially 4hr on-site service (needed for critical systems), regardless of distance, for 3 years minimum. Apple doesn't do that, and what on-site service I'm aware of, customers were made to feel as if they were being granted an extreme favor.

Not the best way to treat enterprise customers IMO. Just saying...


Hmm... 1:12 staff to MP, vs. 1:20 for the HP's.

Then there's the question, How many times are those issues User Error vs. hardware failures? I'm just accustomed to PC's having a lot more user issues than any other, when all things are equal (enterprise systems, software is well written, IT staff have implemented good security on their end,...).

I may have goofed on the amount of computers. I think its way less than that. I may have sounded a bit high (both ego and numbers).
Im just stating that, I dont have major issues with our so called Enterprise set-up of Mac Pros and Xserves here.
Our corporation replaces all PCs every three years and they can afford too (gov). I cant replace, I just add I hung on as long as I can to our SGI O2 and Onyx 2s (two total) but when software (Alias at the time) stopped supporting and further dev we had to finally put them to rest.
Were not all the as far as workflows go.
I have friends in different situations and mine doesn't match any of theirs.
Some of them have to buy their own systems.
Others have to keep working on specific systems that dont get upgraded cause their fine running an old version of 3D Max

----------

The thing about the Mac Pro is that Apple spent so much energy making it LOOK amazing that it will always LOOK like a better machine, but underneath the pretty shell I think PCs have the advantage today. I love Macs, but they don't always "just work" any better than PCs. Both can be brilliant or bollocks...

Dude not all corporations will allow you to build a workstation. No big company wants a frankenstein system that they cant put legal warranty on it. I think the term is Capital purchase in some walsk of corporate life
This is why big corps like HP can sell the high-end boxes. And this is where Apple thinks its at.
Its just neat that regular Joe's can buy one and feel the have something that just works, and Im one of them
Of course Im referring to my own home Mac Pro.
I wish I can afford the ones I have at work.
If you have to build your own PC then do it.
Heck I use to be like that...when I had more free time

 

[wonderspark]

I've been lucky. When I worked for the government, they let me build my own studio and fill it with my own equipment, so long as I maintained it. I built some PC edit suites, and some Mac edit suites. I even had all the florescent lighting replaced with incandescent track lighting on black drop-ceiling tiles. That was cool.

Now, my home is my office, and that's cool, too. Except now I have to buy my own equipment instead of letting the taxpayers buy it for me. I'm happier today, though.

 

[mBox]

I've been lucky. When I worked for the government, they let me build my own studio and fill it with my own equipment, so long as I maintained it. I built some PC edit suites, and some Mac edit suites. I even had all the florescent lighting replaced with incandescent track lighting on black drop-ceiling tiles. That was cool.

Now, my home is my office, and that's cool, too. Except now I have to buy my own equipment instead of letting the taxpayers buy it for me. I'm happier today, though.

You are lucky since most dont have that experience Ive been in and around many levels from freelance, gov and private.
Its still the same though. I cant justify spending all that time putting together a computer that might be okay for 6 months. I need things to work now and I mean now!
Ive set up a few friends and new friends from wedding, doc, guerilla and even film with Mac Pros and they always tell me that prior experiences with Windows hardware, software and of course peripherals would basically take down their creative workflow just by a stupid update or at times nothing at all.
Again this is from my experience.
I say this cause Ive also seen PC only shops survive unscathed for years.
I guess were debating an old war which most dont care about anymore.
I dont cause Im fine with my Mac Pro and Dell T3500 at home
They both serve their purposes just like felt markers and ball point pens

 

[wonderspark]

The thread might be a debate, but you and I seem to agree that both systems are tools that will work swimmingly if set up properly.

 

[Honbe]

First, IBM doesn't even sell workstations anymore.

Second, the Catia compatiblity list for Windows 7 doesn't even list IBM (not surprising since don't make them. ), but does list Lenovo.

I know IBM does not sell WS anymore, last ones we had were those UNIX for Catia v4.
Thanks for the update on Lenovo, my mistake.

 

[MvdM]

What some may not realize, is that if you pick up the phone to get pricing from Dell, it tends to be cheaper than the web pricing. HP and other PC vendors are the same way for their enterprise gear (sometimes consumer as well).

So those price differences posted by masmullin could easily change as a result.

Apple does the same if you phone them and ask them to lower the price a bit.

 

[mBox]

The thread might be a debate, but you and I seem to agree that both systems are tools that will work swimmingly if set up properly.

Yes with my fingers crossed at all times. I say this now cause when I get back from my vacation, I have to make sure that a Cubix PCI expander plays well with a slew of cards along with Avid.
Serenity now...

 

[Hellhammer]

Apple does the same if you phone them and ask them to lower the price a bit.

That is very rare from what I have gathered during my time here in MR.