MacPro5,1 RAM configuration question

[Flocarino]

@Superlead

If you're interested in an alternative to OWC from a seller in Europe, which works perfect too, but much cheaper, you could look here for example:

32GB 1333MHz RAM (4x 8GB DDR3 ECC REGISTERED) Apple Mac Pro Memory Upgrade Kit | eBay

32GB 1333MHz RAM (4x 8GB DDR3 ECC REGISTERED) Apple Mac Pro Memory Upgrade Kit | Computer, Tablets & Netzwerk, Computer-Komponenten & -Teile, Arbeitsspeicher (RAM) | eBay!

www.ebay.nl

[/QUOTE]


I bought from these guys in the past: 16GB sticks...@ AUS$30 a stick it is a pretty good deal and they ship fast.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-628974-0...866588?hash=item4b76464f9c:g:pAkAAOSwFz9ecb5Z

Hope it helps.

 

[Superlead]

@Superlead

If you're interested in an alternative to OWC from a seller in Europe, which works perfect too, but much cheaper, you could look here for example:

32GB 1333MHz RAM (4x 8GB DDR3 ECC REGISTERED) Apple Mac Pro Memory Upgrade Kit | eBay

32GB 1333MHz RAM (4x 8GB DDR3 ECC REGISTERED) Apple Mac Pro Memory Upgrade Kit | Computer, Tablets & Netzwerk, Computer-Komponenten & -Teile, Arbeitsspeicher (RAM) | eBay!

www.ebay.nl

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link.
As matter of fact ,i was thinking about 16GB modules even if they are expensive as i can get up to 96 GB "easily" with them , although i don't know if i will really need that much but a good friend of mine who is a professional composing music for TV movies , told me he uses much Ram in his Mac pro , to load several huge sample libraries, especialy as he composes orchestrations ( like with big symphonic orchestras ) which need much memory .
He bought recently the 2019 / 2020 Mac pro with (16 cores if i remember well ) and has put 96GB of ram and told me it is not too much for what he does .
Before that he had a 2009 or 2010-2012 Mac pro in which he also had much Ram but i don't know how much.

So i was thinking about buying 2 kits of 3x 16 GB from OWC ( as they only sell by kits of3x16GB even if one wants to buy 6 x 16GB ) but i was told by a tech from Macway ( a shop selling some hardware for Mac computers in Paris/ France, like Ram , hard disks and different other things but they only sell 4GB ram modules unfortunately ) today on the phone , that i have to buy all the Ram modules matching from the same batch/ lot ( on top of all being some UDIMM) or it will not work correctly and i don't know if OWC sells them all matched from same batch as it is not specified so i have to ask them .
I had found a link on internet speaking about all that but i can't find which it was whereas i did not read it yet !

I was thinking maybe i would put 4x 16gb in my 2010 5,1 and 2x 16GB in the 2009 4,1 ( and later add more 16GB or 2 or 4 x8GB ) or all of them in my 2010 5,1 ( and transfer my 6x4GB from 5,1 to 4,1 and add two others , maybe 2x8 GB if possible) OR put 3x16Gb in each but the tech from Macway told me Odd number would not work !
He told me i cannot put them in Odd number but only in even number ( by 2 , or 4 or 6 or 8 ) but i am surprised ( especialy as i actualy have 6x4GB in my 8 core 5,1 since i bought it and had no problem ) as OWC sells them by 3 ( for both my Mac pro 2009 and 2010 when seleçting for what computer model i buy them ) and i would suppose they know what they are doing, so i don't know what to think , nor if i buy 2 sets of 3x16GB from them , if they will all be matched from the same batch/lot !

He also told me i should absolutely upgrade my internal mechanical HD ( SATA ,knowing all my HD´s are 7200 rpm internal Sata or external 7200 rpm firewire) to SSD Samsung 860 Evo ( or at least SSD ) for the HD on which is my OSX ( even if i keep my 7200 rpm mechanical drives to read audio files ) , or i will solicit too much my processors and not get the most of my Ram upgrade if i use OSX Sierra or High Sierra and above but i had not read anything about that anywhere, so i don't know if it is true ( i was already told some ******** by Apple support , so i know some " tech" can tell some ******** sometimes !

 

[Flocarino]

Yes it is better to have identical RAM sticks and upgrade ASAP to an SSD

 

[kohlson]

SSD Samsung 860 Evo ( or at least SSD

Almost certainly, an SSD is the single best improvement you can make to your system.

He told me i cannot put them in Odd number but only in even number ( by 2 , or 4 or 6 or 8 ) but i am surprised

Surprised - you should be. Maximum performance between memory and CPU is obtained when the proper 3 slots of memory (per CPU) are installed.

A bit of background -I worked with an Intel server builder during the time these CPUs (Nehalem, Westmere) were used, and wrote technical marketing documentation on various configuration and performance considerations. This was a time when data centers were built out with "1 server - 1 app" mentality. So companies bought lots of servers, and all of the components were built like tanks, which is why there are so many used products still on the market. They work great.

A design consideration was that the CPU architecture, for the most part, had 3 QPI (essentially, high speed channels) between the memory and the CPU. Maximum performance was obtained when all three channels were used. But RAM density was not a great then, so in some use cases these systems needed more RAM. Using anything but 3 channels (1, 2, or 4 slots) decreased memory-to-CPU performance a small bit. But if you needed the cost savings of using less RAM (say, 2 slots) or the app requirements of more RAM (4 slots - hitting swap is a terrible performance hit), then there was a minimal performance hit. Everybody was mostly happy. And, Intels sold zillions of them.

I would encourage you to google the Mac Pro Technician Guide and review the section on memory.

 

[Superlead]

I bought from these guys in the past: 16GB sticks...@ AUS$30 a stick it is a pretty good deal and they ship fast.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-628974-0...866588?hash=item4b76464f9c:g:pAkAAOSwFz9ecb5Z

Hope it helps.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link !
Yes , it seems much cheaper than OWC, surprising to see that much pricé difference , it is less than half the price if i remember well OWC prices !
Do you think those Ram modules are as good as OWC' s ones , which is recommanded on Everymac website ?

 

[tsialex]

I bought from these guys in the past: 16GB sticks...@ AUS$30 a stick it is a pretty good deal and they ship fast.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-628974-0...866588?hash=item4b76464f9c:g:pAkAAOSwFz9ecb5Z

Hope it helps.

Thanks for the link !
Yes , it seems much cheaper than OWC, surprising to see that much pricé difference , it is less than half the price if i remember well OWC prices !
Do you think those Ram modules are as good as OWC' s ones , which is recommanded on Everymac website ?
[/QUOTE]
OWC don't manufacture any modules, they just put labels over the original manufacturer label, hiding it.

 

[Superlead]

Almost certainly, an SSD is the single best improvement you can make to your system.


Surprised - you should be. Maximum performance between memory and CPU is obtained when the proper 3 slots of memory (per CPU) are installed.

A bit of background -I worked with an Intel server builder during the time these CPUs (Nehalem, Westmere) were used, and wrote technical marketing documentation on various configuration and performance considerations. This was a time when data centers were built out with "1 server - 1 app" mentality. So companies bought lots of servers, and all of the components were built like tanks, which is why there are so many used products still on the market. They work great.

A design consideration was that the CPU architecture, for the most part, had 3 QPI (essentially, high speed channels) between the memory and the CPU. Maximum performance was obtained when all three channels were used. But RAM density was not a great then, so in some use cases these systems needed more RAM. Using anything but 3 channels (1, 2, or 4 slots) decreased memory-to-CPU performance a small bit. But if you needed the cost savings of using less RAM (say, 2 slots) or the app requirements of more RAM (4 slots - hitting swap is a terrible performance hit), then there was a minimal performance hit. Everybody was mostly happy. And, Intels sold zillions of them.

I would encourage you to google the Mac Pro Technician Guide and review the section on memory.

Yes , i read recently that only 6 of the ram slots on the 8 total, have a direct access to the processor if i remember well , and that is what you seem to refer to with the 3QPI between the memory and the CPU .
But as you seem to say as well ( if i understood it correctly , sorry i am French, so English is not my native language although i speak english correctly but not fluently ) , i read somewhere that when using all 8 ram slots or anything but 3 ram slots ( per CPU i suppose , so only 3 on one side or 3 +3 to fill 6 of the 8 Ram slots for a dual quad ) for the dual quad core , that was not having that much of an impact in the real life , on the performance .
So yes, i am surprised that said " tech " told me that putting only 3 x 16 in my mac pro 8 cores with 8 ram slots , would not work ( that said he did not say it would not work with 3+3 16GB Ram modules but that it would not work with an odd number of ram modules).
I will read that Mac pro technician guide and try to see if i can find it on the net .

 

[Superlead]

I bought from these guys in the past: 16GB sticks...@ AUS$30 a stick it is a pretty good deal and they ship fast.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-628974-0...866588?hash=item4b76464f9c:g:pAkAAOSwFz9ecb5Z

Hope it helps.
[/QUOTE]


I checked the link of the 16GB DDR4 1333 module for 30$ but it is specified as used and untested .

i don't have enough knowledge to know if it is compatible with the following specs listed on everymac website for being compatible with both my 2009 4,1 and 2010 5,1 :

• PC3-8500, 1066 MHz, DDR3 SDRAM UDIMMs
• Error-correcting code (ECC)
• 72-bit wide, 240-pin ECC modules
• 36 ICs maximum per ECC UDIMM

I read somewhere 1333 DDR3 ECC UDIMM could be used instead of 1066 DDR3 ECC UDIMM if i remember well ( but will only work at 1066 speed ) , although i don't remember where but that is all i know.

I suppose if you tell me to check that link , it is because you know for sure (and have used it it in mac pro 5,1) it is compatible with my 2010 mac pro 5,1 2x2,4 and 2009 Mac pro 4,1 2x 2,66 ( you seem to have a 2010 mac pro 5,1 from what i see in your signature bellow your post ) , although it is not specified if they are all from the same batch / lot, nor if they are UDIMM ( yes, i know i can contact the guy on ebay to ask ).

 

[kohlson]

I think you understood. Using exactly 3 memory sticks per CPU optimizes performance. I think you will see estimates from 5-10% performance improvements overall. But if you system needs more memory than the 3, better to have 4 sticks installed.

Fro the Mac Pro Technician Guide: PDF: Apple Mac Pro Mid 2010 Mid 2012 Technician Guide Service Manual

 

[Flocarino]

sorry i am French, so English is not my native language although i speak english correctly but not fluently )

Je te comprends très bien, je suis dans le même ''bateau''
Les barettes dans le lien, fonctionnent parfaitement dans le Mac Pro 4.1 et 5.1.
En esperant t'aider. Good Luck.

 

[Superlead]

Sincerly , i thank you all very much for all these infos you share on this forum , that is really useful and interesting ( i also read different thread about about 5,1 and 4,1 >5,1 , some recent OSX or Mac Pro Processors upgrade ...etc as i plan to upgrade both of my Mac Pro to X5690 2x 3,46 12 core ) and sorry if some of my post are long or if sometimes i mixup some things or make some mistakes as it is much infos to learn from when you have not been into all that regularly for quite some years .

I just read if i upgrade the processors of my Mac Pro 5,1 and 4,1>5,1 with some X5690 2x3,46 12 core , that they will be able to work with 1333 Ram ( that will clock at 1333 ) and not only 1066 , i did not know that ( although it seems 1333 also work in those 1066 mac pros with stock/ original processors but clocking only at 1066 . Not sure if clocking is the right word ).

 

[Superlead]

I think you understood. Using exactly 3 memory sticks per CPU optimizes performance. I think you will see estimates from 5-10% performance improvements overall. But if you system needs more memory than the 3, better to have 4 sticks installed.

Fro the Mac Pro Technician Guide: PDF: Apple Mac Pro Mid 2010 Mid 2012 Technician Guide Service Manual


View attachment 912996

Thanks, nice , i will read that ( some other many long days & nights to read, added to all the Mac Pro threads, here and elsewhere i am trying to learn from actualy ! Lol ) .
Does it also exist for 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 on this forum ?

I searched on Google with : forums.macrumors pdf apple mac pro 2009 technician guide
But i could not find it , nor searching the forum in desktop / mac pro subforum ( or i did not see it).

EDIT : i finaly found a link somewhere else on the Net as i could not find it on the forum:

http://tim.id.au/laptops/apple/macpro/macpro_early2009.pdf

 

[kohlson]

found a link somewhere else

That's the one I use for my 4/5,1.
This technician guide is not a very useful end-end-end read. I have found it very helpful in things I have never done before, like replacing a CPU. So a good reference guide.
There are a lot of comments here and elsewhere on the correct method for applying thermal paste, and for tightening the screws on the IHS (the radiator that sits on top of the CPU). For me, I want to rely on the engineers that designed the system.

To paraphrase an old American beer commercial: I don't often look at the manual, but when I do, I look at this one.
[automerge]1588960636[/automerge]

to work with 1333 Ram

That is true.
If you have not already purchased your RAM, try to get 1333 RAM. When you instal it with an older/original processor, it will work, but only at 1066. After you upgrade the firmware from 4,1 to 5,1, and install a newer processor, such as an x5690, then it will start working as 1333 RAM.

 

[Superlead]

That's the one I use for my 4/5,1.
This technician guide is not a very useful end-end-end read. I have found it very helpful in things I have never done before, like replacing a CPU. So a good reference guide.
There are a lot of comments here and elsewhere on the correct method for applying thermal paste, and for tightening the screws on the IHS (the radiator that sits on top of the CPU). For me, I want to rely on the engineers that designed the system.

To paraphrase an old American beer commercial: I don't often look at the manual, but when I do, I look at this one.
[automerge]1588960636[/automerge]

That is true.
If you have not already purchased your RAM, try to get 1333 RAM. When you instal it with an older/original processor, it will work, but only at 1066. After you upgrade the firmware from 4,1 to 5,1, and install a newer processor, such as an x5690, then it will start working as 1333 RAM.

Thanks for the infos !
I don't know if i feel capable to replace the dual processors / 8 core with the 2x 3,46 12 core myself in my Mac Pros , i never done it , so i fear to do something wrong ! Lol
I am used to work with soldering irons, build point to point / hand wired vintage style guitar amps repros and restored / serviced many original vintage ones and also service some of my recording studio equipment ( but i hate to solder on PCB , especialy those with thin traces that break and lift easily from the board with too much heat !) as i learnt a bit of electronic by myself on internet through the years but i have been doing it for 10 to 15 years but replacing processors in my Mac Pros , i don't feel that confident to do it ( maybe it is easier than it seems but i read encapsulated processors are a pain in the ... to deal with ) .

 

[kohlson]

You have a 2010 model, and the CPU replacement is very straightforward and well documented. I watched a few YouTube videos to see how it went, then followed the instructions in the Technician Guide. As long as you are careful and follow the instructions, it is easy to do. Unlike soldering, which requires some amount of experience - do I press hard? do I leave the soldering tip on for a few more seconds? - this is really a step-by-step replacement procedure.

I was uncomfortable when I first thought about it, but after watching and reading I knew I could do it. But of course it is up to you.

 

[GoJohnGo]

This _almost_ answers my question, so I'll ask here. For a dual-processor 5,1, say I wanted 48GB of memory. What's the best way to do that? Assuming I wanted to stick to the three slot v. four slot strategy, would there be a practical performance difference between 3x16GB in slots 1/2/3 and 6x8GB in slots 1/2/3/5/6/7?

 

[tsialex]

This _almost_ answers my question, so I'll ask here. For a dual-processor 5,1, say I wanted 48GB of memory. What's the best way to do that? Assuming I wanted to stick to the three slot v. four slot strategy, would there be a practical performance difference between 3x16GB in slots 1/2/3 and 6x8GB in slots 1/2/3/5/6/7?

There are two banks of DIMMs on a dual CPU tray, one for each Xeon processor/memory controller.

Using just one bank/memory controller on a dual processor CPU tray will make your second Xeon wait for the first one to answer any memory access, more than halving the memory performance.

Don't do it.

 

[Soba]

This _almost_ answers my question, so I'll ask here. For a dual-processor 5,1, say I wanted 48GB of memory. What's the best way to do that? Assuming I wanted to stick to the three slot v. four slot strategy, would there be a practical performance difference between 3x16GB in slots 1/2/3 and 6x8GB in slots 1/2/3/5/6/7?

16GB DIMMs are only a little more expensive than 8GB DIMMs, these days. You can probably buy 96GB (6 x 16GB) of RAM for only a small price increase over 48GB (6 x 8GB), so keep this in mind.

I usually buy RAM from Data Memory Systems (DMS) because they offer a lifetime warranty and they guarantee compatibility with your system. You can buy for less on eBay, but in my opinion, RAM can be very touchy and I prefer buying it from a vendor I can get support from (assuming the price difference is acceptable). There are also many posts on this forum from people who accidentally bought the wrong RAM on eBay because of confusion over specifications. Wherever you buy from, be very careful that you are buying the right thing.

As I type this, the price from DMS for 96GB for a 5,1 is about $210 USD.

Other World Computing is usually very overpriced on RAM, but sometimes buying from them makes sense if you want to trade in your original Apple RAM; they offer a rebate program, and assuming the offered prices are reasonable (they publish updated trade-in values on their site), this is simpler than trying to sell the old DIMMs yourself. However, the last few times I've investigated this, it was not cost effective.

Good luck with your shopping.

 

[GoJohnGo]

There are two banks of DIMMs on a dual CPU tray, one for each Xeon processor/memory controller.

Using just one bank/memory controller on a dual processor CPU tray will make your second Xeon wait for the first one to answer any memory access, more than halving the memory performance.

Don't do it.

I'm curious, then, why Apple recommends filling the banks in their order (three DIMMs go in 1/2/3) rather than 1/5/2/6/3/7/4/8?

 

[tsialex]

I'm curious, then, why Apple recommends filling the banks in their order (three DIMMs go in 1/2/3)

If you only have 3 DIMMs, make at least one bank complete. If you have 4 DIMMs, 2 to each bank and so on. Both have penalties, but using both locally and at dual channel will perform a lot better than via NUMA/QPI link.

rather than 1/5/2/6/3/7/4/8?

Like I already explained, each processor have a bank of DIMMs that connects directly to the processor memory controller.

You want both banks working at tri-channel, so 1/2/3 and 5/6/7 or 1/2/3&4 and 5/6/7&8. Slots 3&4 share the same channel on processor A memory controller while 7&8 share the same channel on processor B memory controller.

If you only have 3 DIMMs at CPU A (CPU A memory channels are 1, 2, 3&4 DIMMs) , none on CPU B (CPU B memory channels are 5, 6, 7&8 DIMMs) then CPU B will access memory via NUMA/QPI link and memory access for anything that CPU B is working will work with the latency of the NUMA/QPI link instead of being local.

 

[GoJohnGo]

If you only have 3 DIMMs, make at least one bank complete. If you have 4 DIMMs, 2 to each bank and so on. Both have penalties, but using both locally and at dual channel will perform a lot better than via NUMA/QPI link.


Like I already explained, each processor have a bank that connects directly to the processor memory controller. You want both banks working at tri-channel, so 1/2/3 and 5/6/7 or 1/2/3&4 and 5/6/7&8.

If you only have 3 DIMMs at CPU A (CPU A banks are 1, 2, 3&4) , none on CPU B (CPU banks are 5, 6, 7&8) then CPU B will access memory via NUMA/QPI link and memory access for anything that CPU B is working will work with the latency of the NUMA/QPI link instead of being local.

Ah, so having CPU A humming along at tri-channel (filling 1/2/3) and CPU B accessing memory via NUMA/QPI link is a better performing scenario than CPU A at dual channel and CPU B at mono channel (filling 1/2/5)? Interesting; I've always wondered how that worked.

 

[tsialex]

Ah, so having CPU A humming along at tri-channel (filling 1/2/3) and CPU B accessing memory via NUMA/QPI link is a better performing scenario than CPU A at dual channel and CPU B at mono channel (filling 1/2/5)? Interesting; I've always wondered how that worked.

It's not so easy and straight forward. Depends heavily on the workflow/type of application, if the majority of access is cached, if the application is NUMA aware and etc. Apple does this recommendation based on studies of most common cases. For some will be better, for others not.

Anyway, always try to fill both banks, use at least six DIMMs on a dual CPU tray, three DIMMs on a single one. It's when you have all the performance gains and no penalties (more correctly, minimized the penalties, since when CPU B needs something stored on CPU A memory, CPU B will access it via NUMA).

Also try to use identical DIMMs, don't mix and match, doing that have penalties.

 

[hirshnoc]

Can anyone confirm that 160GB (32x5) still works with the 5,1 dual processor on current OS (Monterey 12.5.1)?

 

[M.Switch]

@tsialex , first I'd like to thank you for your expertly explained detailed replies to all of us who are just trying to live a little longer. I have been able to follow these instructions to completion for just about everything except the Max RAM in a 2x2.93GHz 6-core / 128GB DDR3 1333MHz / 1TB SSD (test box). Everything that has been successful has been implemented in my main rig, the final piece is the RAM... I accepted some PC3L-10600L - 8 x 32GB DIMMs instead of waiting for the PC3L-10600The vendor said there was a longer wait for the DDR3 - PČ3L - 10600 - 32GB DIMMs that I ordered. MY QUESTION IS: 256GB of RAM is achieveable IF OpenCore EFI is set to True for CustomMemory and the RAM Must be DDR3 or 3L-10600ECC or 10600R -PČ3-1333MHz 8 x 32GB 2r-4 (I hope I wrote that correctly). The RAM I installed only produces the power light flashing ~1x per second. I appreciate your time. Thank you for your help!!

 

[tsialex]

@tsialex , first I'd like to thank you for your expertly explained detailed replies to all of us who are just trying to live a little longer. I have been able to follow these instructions to completion for just about everything except the Max RAM in a 2x2.93GHz 6-core / 128GB DDR3 1333MHz / 1TB SSD (test box). Everything that has been successful has been implemented in my main rig, the final piece is the RAM... I accepted some PC3L-10600L - 8 x 32GB DIMMs instead of waiting for the PC3L-10600The vendor said there was a longer wait for the DDR3 - PČ3L - 10600 - 32GB DIMMs that I ordered. MY QUESTION IS: 256GB of RAM is achieveable IF OpenCore EFI is set to True for CustomMemory and the RAM Must be DDR3 or 3L-10600ECC or 10600R -PČ3-1333MHz 8 x 32GB 2r-4 (I hope I wrote that correctly). The RAM I installed only produces the power light flashing ~1x per second. I appreciate your time. Thank you for your help!!

You should ask your question on the correct thread, people are testing 256 GB / 32GB DIMMs here:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/crazy-idea-32gb-ram-modules-in-a-cmp-anyone-tried-this.2046693/post-24597466

You will learn how to configure following the posts there.