Marco Arment on the nMP/mMP

[mattspace]

So, if the classic Mac Pro is so great, why is there such a huge second-hand forest of them?

Macs that that had reached the limits of their supported GPU-life being replaced with Windows workstations, pure and simple.

Apple tried the road of a very focussed machine, and "go away if it's not right for you", and people chose "go away". Some went away to other Apple products, a lot didn't. Now they're discounting FCPX for edu customers, I would suggest because every school that would teach video, already has an AdobeCC subscription which includes Premiere. Blackmagic are giving Resolve, which appears to be an increasingly capable NLE, away for free. Capture One which is the most Aperture-like of the PhotoDAM apps, is cross platform. Affinity Photo, which Apple gave a design award to, is going cross platform along with everything else Serif does - the entire content creation industry is in the middle of an escape plan from Apple's products, and that is the dominant narrative.

If you don't want a Box O'slots, Apple makes a computer for you, two of them in fact, and soon to be three - Macbook Pro, iMac and, soon, iMac Pro. A less specialised, less focussed, and more generic-pc machine is the only way to get sufficient versatility in a machine, that it can capture every remaining edge case, which it needs to do in order to provide a return on investment that is competitive with anywhere else in the company the money could go.

 

[ActionableMango]

I find myself getting sucked into arguments again, which I'm trying not to do any more. I apologize to everyone I argued with and I'm getting out of my own thread. @SoyCapitanSoyCapitan @deconstruct60 etc

 

[jeff7117]

and people chose "go away"

This. Kind of funny to watch people leave Apple and get a Windows machine, and then they say "hey, what's the deal with these Android phones?"

I've seen entire households switch everything over time after ditching the mac. Once those folks are gone, they're not likely to come back.

 

[ixxx69]

This. Kind of funny to watch people leave Apple and get a Windows machine, and then they say "hey, what's the deal with these Android phones?"

I've seen entire households switch everything over time after ditching the mac. Once those folks are gone, they're not likely to come back.

This is the real reason why they're doing a new MP.

The MP was essentially dead... Apple had every intention of discontinuing it and letting the "pro" market that wanted/required an MP to go to Windows... the way they looked at it, there wasn't enough of an Apple market for the MP to justify it in the lineup. And they still don't care about the MP market from a sales standpoint.

However, as has been pointed out by many in the past few years, Apple has underestimated the halo effect of the MP and Mac power-users specifically. Like many others here, I've got at least a dozen converts under my belt - family, friends, friends of friends, work associates. And it wasn't just the Mac... Apple thought iPhones just sold themselves... I steered plenty of those same people to iPhones and iPads who otherwise would have gotten a cheap Android phone (or even were already on cheap Android phones). And if I flip back to Windows because Apple shuts me out, then eventually I'm going to switch my iPhone to Android. And then eventually I'll start taking all those family, friends, friends of friends, and work associates with me as well... and not just the Mac, but the iPhones.

I'd like to think Apple woke the frick up and realized that they really were losing their strongest allies by alienating the power-user market... even if that market isn't worth squat as far as actual Mac sales, it's worth keeping that market happy so they'll keep evangelizing their products.

p.s. Most software developers are only slightly ahead of the public at large when it comes to hardware and analysis of the computer industry. I have no beef with Arment (at least that I'm aware of ), but I read through that list and couldn't help think that he seemed a little confused (to put it nicely).

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

What possible advantage would I gain by adding outboard gear to my touring racks? The idea is to minimize points of failure on the road, not introduce new ones.

SDI, break out boxes and capture cards are potential points of failure if you're in the road, not to mention the extra gear you have to travel with. Even the best future SDI standards hat have been proposed have 30% slower bit rate than TB3.

At some point the industry needs to dump those old ports but for legacy reasons they are still around and require video capture instead of video transfer. Cumbersome.

Note: we are talking about capture not streaming. TB3/USB streaming basically doesn't exist in professional circles...yet.

 

[fuchsdh]

I think we can rule out "Mac Gamers" and "Budget-conscous PC builders" anyone serious about gaming has a PC, and anyone budget-conscious isn't likely to drop the dosh on a Mac Pro.

I have an Xbox One and use my Mac for games like Dota 2 and RTS that don't work on a console. I'm not going to get a PC for a few games that aren't on my platforms because that's managing another whole system for marginal gain.

But I agree chasing the Mac gaming segment is tough, because it's really just a niche that isn't going to grow. Even if they offered the fabled xMac, you're competing with a "build your own lightsaber" PC master race which will always have cheaper options than a Mac.

Apple could adopt Vulkan into Metal and offer more GPU options and bunch of stuff like that, but according to Steam only 1% of Mac users are on a Mac Pro anyhow.

 

[fastlanephil]

I have another interpretation of this. Is the hate of the 2013 nMP a way to drive the price of it down? Is that even possible? Because 2013 nMP on eBay are still price-y as hell. And, there aren't that many available!

Meanwhile, there's like a forest of the classic Mac Pro towers on sale on eBay. Like, so huge that this forest of classic Mac Pro towers has its own climate. It might even single-handedly save the world from climate change.

So, if the classic Mac Pro is so great, why is there such a huge second-hand forest of them?

Meanwhile, second-hand 2013 nMP availability is more like a shrub. And, price-wise, it has kept its value.



Sorry to keep bringing up the forest image.

You'll also notice that there are a lot of CPU upgrades for the 2103 Mac Pro on eBay. You can purchase a 2.7ghz 12-core CPU and turn a 4-core nMac Pro into a twelve core for about $850. That may explain some of the price stability. Also, I would imagine that many people are selling cMac Pros and going to Windows and a number of these of these are purchased, upgraded and sold on eBay. So this could help explain a healthy inventory of used cMac Pros on eBay and else where also as BTO.

 

[irked]

SDI, break out boxes and capture cards are potential points of failure if you're in the road, not to mention the extra gear you have to travel with. Even the best future SDI standards hat have been proposed have 30% slower bit rate than TB3.

At some point the industry needs to dump those old ports but for legacy reasons they are still around and require video capture instead of video transfer. Cumbersome.

Note: we are talking about capture not streaming. TB3/USB streaming basically doesn't exist in professional circles...yet.

I'm really not sure you understand the world I work in. SDI is absolutely not going away any time soon for live broadcast work and to say things like "Video capture cards? Those things are virtually dead in the SSD era and will be completely dead when USB-C/TB3 ports replace HDMI and SDI etc." really reveals an ignorance of any gig outside your own.

When that satellite truck rolls up and hands me some cables to plug in, they're gonna be SDI. When I'm in some sad little (or massive) ballroom working an awards show, my sources and destinations are all going to be coming to me via SDI.

Trying to hand-wave away solid tech with a massive install base simply because you think a different wire is better would absolutely never fly around my peeps.

 

[zephonic]

And if I flip back to Windows because Apple shuts me out, then eventually I'm going to switch my iPhone to Android.

I don't understand this. Getting a Windows machine because Apple doesn't make what you need or want, fine. Buying an Android phone because the iPhone doesn't allow you to do what you want, fine.
But I don't see why you'd eventually want an Android phone because you got a Windows computer? The iPhone is a great device, and interfaces just as well (or just as poorly) with a Windows PC.

 

[ixxx69]

I don't understand this. Getting a Windows machine because Apple doesn't make what you need or want, fine. Buying an Android phone because the iPhone doesn't allow you to do what you want, fine.
But I don't see why you'd eventually want an Android phone because you got a Windows computer? The iPhone is a great device, and interfaces just as well (or just as poorly) with a Windows PC.

You're looking at it too logically... the point is that when power-users/evangelists/pros, whatever you want to call them - if they sour on a brand because one of the primary products (i.e. Mac) doesn't work for them, they tend to leave the brand even if there's still a device within the brand (i.e. iPhone) that still works the way it always has. This is human nature and Apple can only fight it so much.

When you're on a Mac, you're pretty much getting an iPhone. If you're on Windows, you could get an iPhone, but hey that new Galaxy S8 is looking pretty sweet!

 

[F1Mac]

You're looking at it too logically... the point is that when power-users/evangelists/pros, whatever you want to call them - if they sour on a brand because one of the primary products (i.e. Mac) doesn't work for them, they tend to leave the brand even if there's still a device within the brand (i.e. iPhone) that still works the way it always has. This is human nature and Apple can only fight it so much.

When you're on a Mac, you're pretty much getting an iPhone. If you're on Windows, you could get an iPhone, but hey that new Galaxy S8 is looking pretty sweet!

What is also logical is being part of their respective ecosystem. App Store, iTunes store, etc - I admit it would seem strange, for me, to kind of "be on both camps". There's no need for me to switch by the way, I'm fine with Apple's products, I can be mad at them sometimes, but I "feel at home" both on macOS and iOS.

 

[zephonic]

You're looking at it too logically... the point is that when power-users/evangelists/pros, whatever you want to call them - if they sour on a brand because one of the primary products (i.e. Mac) doesn't work for them, they tend to leave the brand even if there's still a device within the brand (i.e. iPhone) that still works the way it always has. This is human nature and Apple can only fight it so much.

When you're on a Mac, you're pretty much getting an iPhone. If you're on Windows, you could get an iPhone, but hey that new Galaxy S8 is looking pretty sweet!

I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe not.

But I do know that even if I had to replace my MacPro with a Windows PC, it wouldn't be a reason to ditch Apple wholesale. I'd surely keep a MacBook, iPad, iPhone, and Apple TV around because it all works together nicely, for the most part. It'd be crazy to ditch everything just because of sour grapes.

OTOH, If my 5S died on me, I would consider an Android phone, because I love Google Maps and Voice, and the only way to get that in the car is through Android Auto. If Apple opened Carplay to 3rd-party apps, I'd stick with the iPhone.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I'm really not sure you understand the world I work in. SDI is absolutely not going away any time soon for live broadcast work and to say things like "Video capture cards? Those things are virtually dead in the SSD era and will be completely dead when USB-C/TB3 ports replace HDMI and SDI etc." really reveals an ignorance of any gig outside your own.

When that satellite truck rolls up and hands me some cables to plug in, they're gonna be SDI. When I'm in some sad little (or massive) ballroom working an awards show, my sources and destinations are all going to be coming to me via SDI.

Trying to hand-wave away solid tech with a massive install base simply because you think a different wire is better would absolutely never fly around my peeps.

You didn't read my last paragraph.

 

[antonis]

And, let's not forget, it's to address the 2013 nMP...

aka the current nMP, aka apple's workstation for 2017 (and keep going).

One of the subgroups on this list is the Hackintosh crowd. Do you really think Apple is going to tons of effort into expanding that group?

Yes, I think apple wants to expand to hackintosh group and get some of their lost customers back (if this is even possible now), as apple is the reason of hackintosh expanding numbers at first place. It's easier to win back users that switched to hackintosh rather than the ones that switched to windows. Former mac pro users that switch to hackintosh are in a 'pending' status and they'll eventually switch to one side or the other.

 

[flat five]

I don't understand this. Getting a Windows machine because Apple doesn't make what you need or want, fine. Buying an Android phone because the iPhone doesn't allow you to do what you want, fine.
But I don't see why you'd eventually want an Android phone because you got a Windows computer? The iPhone is a great device, and interfaces just as well (or just as poorly) with a Windows PC.

if i were to start using computers other than macs (or even if i started using Windows on my macs), i'm pretty sure i'd at least have a look at Androids to see if they have capabilities similar to macOS/iOS syncing.

something i do fairly often is shoot photos on the iPhone then those pictures are automatically available on my macs for import into software (or just viewing even).. likewise, almost any of the files i'm working on on the macs are viewable and in cases, editable on the iPhone.. and that too is automatic & seamless because it's built into the OSes themselves. (like, no wires or no buttons to push or- i don't do anything at all really.. the OSes do it for me)
same with emails, contact info, passwords, and even stuff like browsing history.

so if Android/Windows work together in a similar way as iOS/macOS then i'd likely get an android phone.. if they're not very well integrated with each other then i'd probably stick with the iPhone then use 3rd party solutions for the functionality i'm after.

but again, my point was that i'd at least have a look into Android upon moving to Windows.. something that as of now, i've yet to do.

 

[zephonic]

if i were to start using computers other than macs (or even if i started using Windows on my macs), i'm pretty sure i'd at least have a look at Androids to see if they have capabilities similar to macOS/iOS syncing.

Not sure I follow. Google and Microsoft are competitors, there is little incentive for either party to have Windows and Android integrate better. Android integration on the desktop (or laptop) is through Google services which run in a browser and require you to be logged in.
Microsoft has competing services, I don't know how well integrated they are on Android, but I do know they work fine with iOS. No personal experience, but from the little I have read in publications, it would seem Microsoft services work better with iOS devices than Android.
Apple's services are also easily accessible from a Windows desktop, as iCloud.com now works in any browser, and there's still iTunes on Windows, too, should you want to subject yourself to that.
So let's just say that in terms of functionality, Android and iOS are roughly similar on Windows desktop.

I can imagine a disgruntled ex-Apple devotee ditching his/her iDevice out of spite, and Android has some legit advantages over iOS (maps, voice recognition), but realistically, you could replace your MacPro with a Windows workstation and still enjoy most of the advantages of the Apple ecosystem.

 

[namyrb]

You didn't read my last paragraph.

Who's talking about streaming? They're talking about capture.

I don't see the benefit of running thunderbolt/usb instead of sdi in these use cases. SDI does exactly what you need it to and gets you up to 300ft with high reliability and durability - not really what you think of when you hear "thunderbolt".

 

[ssgbryan]

Apple could adopt Vulkan into Metal and offer more GPU options and bunch of stuff like that, but according to Steam only 1% of Mac users are on a Mac Pro anyhow.

The only way I'll ever be a 1%er.

 

[flat five]

Not sure I follow. Google and Microsoft are competitors, there is little incentive for either party to have Windows and Android integrate better.

ha. oh right.
i should of known that but something wasn't clicking right when i typed the other response.
my bad.