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clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
lol, I dont know why chinese government would want to compromise mac specifically, But I agree with your point.

We can blame users all we want, in the end, after you blame them, it has to get back to the problem and solve it.

Windows has an established system and procedures to handle the problem, with plenty 3rd party solutions out there.

Macs do not have that system, once the problem surface, most people have to rely on apple to help them, and a responsible company should do just that, take care of stupid users.

The attitude suggested here in many posts here are irresponsible, and harmful to the very image apple is portraying about itself. After all, when apple claimed in the ads "windows has 144000 viruses", it didn't care the difference between viruses and malwares, and it didn't care about if the stupid users are to be blamed.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
the botnet is already launching DDoS attacks now. http://i.gizmodo.com/5217202/symantec-finds-first-mac-botnet-already-launching-ddos-attacks

easily avoid? today is pirated iwork, tomorrow might be pirate movies, are we expecting mac users not using bt?

lets get real, and understand blaming users is not the solution.

This is really idiotic. Blaming the user is exactly the "solution" in this case. We are talking about people who wanted to get illegal copies of iWork and Photoshop. Instead of going the safe route and finding someone who has the software and lets them have a copy, they had to go to a torrent with no reputation. They downloaded the software, and they must have been asked at least twice for their admin password and typed it in. But by now even the greatest imbecile around should know that copies of iWork and Photoshop coming from a torrent are trojans, and that trojan is really easy to remove. Anyone still having that software on their computer has only got themselves to blame.

This is not a security risk like in "under certain rare circumstances the airbag on your car could explode", it is a security risk as in "if you wrap your seatbelt round your neck and drive your car at 50 mph into a tree, you will die".

By the way, I'd like to see some real evidence for this. As far as I have seen so far, there is evidence that there is code that is supposed to be able to form a botnet, but those reports have since then been duplicated, transmogrified and turned into something that is likely not true. So I would ask for evidence that there actually _is_ a botnet, how many computers are part of it, and how this botnet has been used. How many machines to they need to call it a "botnet"? Two?

the botnet is already launching DDoS attacks now.

The article you quote doesn't actually say that.
 

Jethryn Freyman

macrumors 68020
Aug 9, 2007
2,329
3
Australia
Why? Not the laughing, the trojan in non-pirated software. It STILL boils down to end-user stupidity because, guess what, they didn't look to see where it came from before installing it. The end-user must consciously click past OS X's warning when opening a downloaded file. If you ignore it, it's your problem.

That's true, my only point was that I think it's going be to pretty ironic once a trojan actually appears in non-pirated software. What high horse are people going to be able to get on next? "Oh, you deserved that trojan, because you downloaded something from the internet."

I just think it's silly that every time there is a story about a Mac threat, people just start condemning piracy - in the Windows world, trojan come from more than pirate software.
 

Beerfloat

macrumors regular
Feb 21, 2009
217
0
I just think it's silly that every time there is a story about a Mac threat, people just start condemning piracy - in the Windows world, trojan come from more than pirate software.

True, they mostly come from buffer overflows in Internet Explorer. And from mistakingly embedding that app everywhere because clearly turning email into active content was just what users always wanted and needed.

It is kinda silly that every time there is a story about a Mac threat, there are some numbnuts who need to come state the obvious and crow over the fact that Macs are theoretically just as vulnerable. Of course they are. Which in no way changes the reality that there are only a handful of Mac threats, while there's a major new worm/virus/trojan scare about twice every year for as long as Windows has been around.
 

snowmoon

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2005
900
119
Albany, NY
Windows is more vulnerable because it's more than just "bad users" that allow malware to propagate. It's bug after bug in IE, windows, network protocols, and/or other software that allows untrusted web code a backdoor all the way up to the kernel itself without intervention.

When OSX malware gets to the level of "drive by" infestations over safari then you can claim that OSX is no better off than Windows.
 

dejo

Moderator emeritus
Sep 2, 2004
15,982
452
The Centennial State
so microsoft said something like "u use pirated software, u deserve the problem"?
No, they blamed the user for malware which is something you said you had never seen Microsoft do, so I provided you a link to proof where they had. But rather than admit to anything, you just veer the argument off in a different direction.
 

clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
No, they blamed the user for malware which is something you said you had never seen Microsoft do, so I provided you a link to proof where they had. But rather than admit to anything, you just veer the argument off in a different direction.

okay, now I officially admit M$ blamed users for getting infected with virus and malwares

now, what do you say if apple should come clean and patch the problem or offer a solution to end users, or stop pretending OSX to be completely safe?
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/833/1051833/iwork-trojan-macs-zombies:

However since Apple tells users that no one has ever come up with a virus for their super secure software, many Apple users downloaded it.

Since most Apple users don't have virus protection at all, because they think their operating system is somehow safe, the virus spread like wildfire.

Apple wants publicity? Thats what it got by ignoring the problem, and I bet it gonna get worse. Deservedly so, mac users need to wake up to the situation and demand solution from apple, head in the sand is stupid and dangerous.

Some apple fanboys would defend apple's cash flow more than users safety, but sorry, I use a mac too, I dont want their stupid attitudes to get myself in the dangerous situation. Internet is connecting everyone, stupidity towards the dangerous situation gonna hurt everybody.
 

vansouza

macrumors 68000
Mar 28, 2006
1,735
3
West Plains, MO USA Earth
okay, now I officially admit M$ blamed users for getting infected with virus and malwares

now, what do you say if apple should come clean and patch the problem or offer a solution to end users, or stop pretending OSX to be completely safe?


Apple wants publicity? Thats what it got by ignoring the problem, and I bet it gonna get worse. Deservedly so, mac users need to wake up to the situation and demand solution from apple, head in the sand is stupid and dangerous.

Some apple fanboys would defend apple's cash flow more than users safety, but sorry, I use a mac too, I dont want their stupid attitudes to get myself in the dangerous situation. Internet is connecting everyone, stupidity towards the dangerous situation gonna hurt everybody.

Why does Apple have to solve human greed/stupidity? That's why God invented MacScan or what ever other solution you choose. Or you can choose to not be greedy or dishonest in which case Apple has already solved your problems.
 

clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
Why does Apple have to solve human greed/stupidity? That's why God invented MacScan or what ever other solution you choose. Or you can choose to not be greedy or dishonest in which case Apple has already solved your problems.

Im not asking anybody to be justice or perfection, Im asking people to be practical.

whats the reality? when standing in front of dangerous reality, preaching the justice and finger pointing other people to blame, does that help anything? Does finger pointing reduces the possibility of yourself being affected? NO, it does NOT.

Whatever solution I choose? what are the solutions out there?

Human greedy cause problems on windows too, why do you think Microsoft patches their OS and offer malware removal tool for free?
 

vansouza

macrumors 68000
Mar 28, 2006
1,735
3
West Plains, MO USA Earth
Im not asking anybody to be justice or perfection, Im asking people to be practical.

whats the reality? when standing in front of dangerous reality, preaching the justice and finger pointing other people to blame, does that help anything? Does finger pointing reduces the possibility of yourself being affected? NO, it does NOT.

Whatever solution I choose? what are the solutions out there?

Human greedy cause problems on windows too, why do you think Microsoft patches their OS and offer malware removal tool for free?

If you're asking the question in a non-rhetorical way... I use MacScan. Just in case because some times I enter my PW too quickly. It has never found anything except tracking cookies. Makes me happy.
 

MotleyPete

macrumors regular
Jun 9, 2008
233
0
Blighty
In extreme circumstances, the Zombie Trojan can be stopped by removing the head or destroying the brain. I will repeat that: by removing the head or destroying the brain.
 

Phil A.

Moderator emeritus
Apr 2, 2006
5,800
3,100
Shropshire, UK
how convenient. Why dont you go suggest apple to do a piracy test of each user before sell them computers then.

oh, its stupid users, my system is fine! Im sure Microsoft can say exactly same with windows.

Blaming users. lol, yeah right. Did you ever seen microsoft blaming users for trojans or worms? Now thats how a company takes care of its users.

There is one big difference with this trojan in that it can't self-install. Many (not all) trojans on Windows are installed without the user knowing by exploiting security holes in the operating system. There have been instances of legitimate sites being hijacked to deliver malware that is automatically installed on windows machines so users can get malware on their PC without ever going to a torrent / porn site.


Until that happens on OS X, it remains far more secure than Windows (note I didn't say immune!)
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
I think someone here needs to lookup the difference between a trojan and a virus.

CNN even used the term virus yesterday, but many non technical sources simplify the term trojan as a virus. Being a techie, I had to simplify concepts for customers and say, "I will fix your hard drive", instead of "I am going to fix boot sectors". I would tell somebody who has a very old computer why just a RAM upgrade won't always fix everything by saying, "You are due for a new machine" vs. "It has become painfully aware that your new software is being hindered by a slow bus system which cannot be repaired by RAM." :D

Like in MS world, there is no way to prevent this from happening on a Mac.

Frankly, I do not understand how people can think that OS X is structurally safer than Vista. In my case, the XP machine I use at work has been running without a single security "infection" for years.

- thistle

When XP was more of a target, I used Windows 98 without problems. Right now, Vista is the big target and focus.

I think OS X is more concise and Windows has issues just because of too much junk in there. I am not suggesting Apple programmers are smarter or better trained, but mainly that OS X is built on less junk and it's the system the programmers have to work with.

Apple's OS X is akin to a small business that gives you more personalized service since there are fewer to serve, where as MS is like Wal-Mart and not much can be done once something gets that big. :)
 

clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
CNN even used the term virus yesterday

even apple itself is using the term "virus" in referring to malware.

Apple said 144000 viruses in windows, which includes predominantly malware

In recent ads, apple claim pc is bugged by "major virus" out there, which probably refers to the conficker, which is a worm.

If apple is using the term, others should be able to.

There is one big difference with this trojan in that it can't self-install. Many (not all) trojans on Windows are installed without the user knowing by exploiting security holes in the operating system. There have been instances of legitimate sites being hijacked to deliver malware that is automatically installed on windows machines so users can get malware on their PC without ever going to a torrent / porn site.

there are also instant on mac that safari will auto-download and open dmg files, how exactly do you know it can't be combined with something else? with less people try to exploit the OSX for now, it might not happen, but what do we know about future?

Currently safe doesn't mean we can ignore the trend. Not to mention right now its fact in the face, and people still trying to ignore it?

don't you see this is for your, and my own good? Why defending apple is more important than protect our own security?
If you're asking the question in a non-rhetorical way... I use MacScan. Just in case because some times I enter my PW too quickly. It has never found anything except tracking cookies. Makes me happy.
Is there a free way to make me happy too? I didn't spend a penny on my netbookk for AV, I hope to find a free solution for OSX as well.
 

guzzlamiamor

macrumors member
Oct 19, 2008
46
0
Like in MS world, there is no way to prevent this from happening on a Mac.

Frankly, I do not understand how people can think that OS X is structurally safer than Vista. In my case, the XP machine I use at work has been running without a single security "infection" for years.

- thistle

I can't either. I can understand how OSX IS structurally safer than all other legacy Windows distros however. Much like you, I have been a Windows user for 19 years this year since the days of 3.1 and to my knowledge have NEVER been infected with a virus, malware, trojan, worm, etc. I always keep my computer updated, never install pirated or software from shady vendors, don't open strange email attachments, etc. The reason so many Windows computers get infected is because people are idiots and don't have common sense. I would like to note that I now only use Windows because I have to at work and even though Vista is fairly sound post SP1 it is still a bloated turd IMHO.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,089
3,207
Not far from Boston, MA.
well that should put the excuses, 'macs don't get infected' or 'you don't need a/v' to rest...curiosity will kill the cat.

I don't download dubious software from questionable sites. I don't open attachments from sources I don't know. And most of all, I don't input my admin password unless I know what the hell I am doing.

So why do I need a/v?
 

clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
I don't download dubious software from questionable sites. I don't open attachments from sources I don't know. And most of all, I don't input my admin password unless I know what the hell I am doing.

So why do I need a/v?

do you goto dubious internet websites? do you adventure through shortened URLs at twitter or digg or any other websites? safari's new preview function probably will exchange data with web servers behind the door as well.

yeah, if you are 100% sure you know your exact internet activity. you are save whichever OS you are using.

But the question is, are you sure?
 

Phil A.

Moderator emeritus
Apr 2, 2006
5,800
3,100
Shropshire, UK
there are also instant on mac that safari will auto-download and open dmg files, how exactly do you know it can't be combined with something else? with less people try to exploit the OSX for now, it might not happen, but what do we know about future?

OS X is inherently safer then Windows because it enforces secondary authentication (not just authorisation) for actions that write to system folders for auto startup, etc. However, if a system process that is open to the internet and runs with the SUID bit set is discovered with an exploitable hole in it, that's a different story.

In that case, it's all bets off because you would then have your remote attack vector with full access to the system to do what you want as any malware would then be running with root access. That's not happened yet but that's not to say it never will.
In some ways, OS X presents a very attractive platform for malware writers because a lot of the users are pretty blaze about security, which is due in no small part to the posturing by Apple which does imply OS X is impervious, which it clearly isn't. However, the fact does remain that it is architecturally far more secure against malware than Windows (definitely true for versions up to XP and probably Vista too)

Currently safe doesn't mean we can ignore the trend. Not to mention right now its fact in the face, and people still trying to ignore it?
The state of malware is very much in its infancy on OSX. That doesn't mean it should be ignored, nor does it mean people have to overreact

don't you see this is for your, and my own good? Why defending apple is more important than protect our own security?
No need to be condescending - I wasn't protecting Apple, just pointing out the facts.


Is there a free way to make me happy too? I didn't spend a penny on my netbookk for AV, I hope to find a free solution for OSX as well.

Try ClamX AV although at the moment I think it only detects Windows viruses to prevent you from passing them on
 

Eanair

macrumors 6502
Feb 27, 2009
283
1
CNN - Malicious Program Targets Macs

On CNN today:

(CNN) -- Mac computers are known for their near-immunity to malicious computer programs that plague PCs.

Some security experts say viruses are moving toward Mac as those computers become more popular.

But that may be changing somewhat, according to computer security researchers. It seems that as sleek Mac computers become more popular, they're also more sought-after targets for the authors of harmful programs.

"The bad guys generally go toward the biggest target, what will get them the biggest bang for their buck," said Kevin Haley, a director of security response at Symantec.

Until recently, the big target always was Microsoft Windows, and Apple computers were protected by "relative obscurity," he said.

But blogs are buzzing this week about what two Symantec researchers have called the first harmful computer program to strike specifically at Mac.

This Trojan horse program, dubbed the "iBotnet," has infected only a few thousand Mac machines, but it represents a step in the evolution of malicious computer software, Haley said.

The iBotnet is a sign that harmful programs are moving toward Mac, said Paul Henry, a forensics and security analyst at Lumension Security in Arizona.

"We all knew it was going to happen," he said. "It was just a matter of time, and, personally, I think we're going to see a lot more of it."

The malicious software was first reported in January. It didn't gain widespread attention until recently, when Mario Ballano Barcena and Alfredo Pesoli of Symantec, maker of the popular Norton antivirus products, detailed the software in a publication called "Virus Bulletin."

Mac users at large, however, should not be alarmed by the incident, experts said. The program infects only computers whose users downloaded pirated versions of the Mac software iWork.

The harmful software is a Trojan horse, meaning it tries to sneak into the computer with some sort of permission from the user. Computer worms travel differently. They wiggle their way into computers and replicate without the owner's approval or knowledge.

The Mac program is called a botnet because infected computers become part of a network that is controlled by the program's author.

The Mac botnet is significantly less threatening than computer worms like the much-publicized Conficker.c, said Jose Nazario, a senior security researcher with Arbor Networks. Conficker was thought to have infected up to 10 million computers, compared with thousands for the iBotnet, researchers said.

There's also some question as to whether it is the first botnet to target Mac. Others have targeted both PCs and Apple computers.

"This isn't the first botnet that's been built using Mac computers," Nazario said. "This is an interesting one in that it's a little more flexible and includes some new features. ... It's getting a lot of press mostly because it's Mac and people are talking about how Macs are immune to malware -- and, sure enough, they're not."

The potential damage that could be caused by the Mac botnet is also less severe than other attacks, said Darrell Etherington, a contributor to theAppleBlog, which is not affiliated with the computer company.

"It's a very low-level attack," he said. "Some people won't even notice the effect of it."

It is in the interest of software companies like Symantec, who spread the news, and McAfee, which has downplayed the presence of the Trojan, to raise concerns so they can promote their antivirus software packages, he said.

"Yes, it is going to become a bigger problem and, yes, people have to become more aware, but I think that what McAfee and Symantec would like is for the panic to start and for people to start rushing to antivirus software," which isn't necessary yet, Etherington said.

In a statement, Apple said it is working to prevent security problems.

"Apple takes security very seriously and has a great track record of addressing potential vulnerabilities before they can affect users," the statement says.

Only about 7.4 percent of computer users work on Macs, according to Gartner, a technology research firm.

That user base is proportionally more affluent than PC users, Etherington said, which may make Mac a bigger target. But overall, Macs are still far less vulnerable to attack than PCs, he said.

Haley said news of the Apple botnet is significant in part because it's something other authors of malicious code can build from.

"I don't think it's a tipping point; I think it's an evolutionary step. We see virus authors often use what somebody else has done," he said. "There's a model. There's something out there to follow."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/22/first.mac.botnet/index.html
 

question fear

macrumors 68020
Apr 10, 2003
2,277
84
The "Garden" state
Not that I don't believe them...but Symantec isn't exactly a disinterested third party. It is in their interests to convince everyone the sky is falling and macs are made of swiss cheese.
 

Eanair

macrumors 6502
Feb 27, 2009
283
1
Very true, and it's not a secret that you can make programs that are malicious for Macs, but figured I would put it up anyways. :)
 

dejo

Moderator emeritus
Sep 2, 2004
15,982
452
The Centennial State
okay, now I officially admit M$ blamed users for getting infected with virus and malwares
Thank you. Finally.

now, what do you say if apple should come clean and patch the problem...
What problem is this again? That there is a vector to install trojans? That's called the application install procedure and if you patch that you can't install any applications. You do know that Leopard already provides some trojan protection by marking files that are downloaded and warning the user before installing them, right?

...or offer a solution to end users...
Besides the above-mentioned protection, how about?:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/networking_security/protectmacantivirus.html
or
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/networking_security/avastantivirusmacedition.html

...or stop pretending OSX to be completely safe?
Mac OS X Security Configuration Guides
Apple doesn't pretend that OS X is completely safe. The link I've provided proves that.
 
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