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In the end I don't think that Apple cares about OS X all that much.

I would disagree with that idea. The Mac is and will continue to be an important part of the Apple ecosystem as a whole, has seen growth even as PC sales have seen decline for years and is now making inroads into enterprise computing with Apple's partnership with IBM as noted in this article from Computerworld:

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...ns-pitching-apple-macs-for-enterprise-it.html

The fact that the Mac is a smaller share of the revenue pie does not in any way mean it is unimportant. I would argue that all parts of the pie are important. Apple's partnership with IBM signals a serious interest in doing a lot more business with the business world and desktops are and will continue to be an important part of that for a long time to come. I think and I believe management at Apple thinks there is a lot of opportunity to make money selling Macs running OS X beyond present levels of sales, particularly as part of total enterprise solutions. IBM certainly seems to agree.

Consider also the development effort and expense that is being directed at new versions of OS X annually with increasing interoperability with iOS in each iteration from UI design to feature enhancements. Why would they spend the money if they felt OS X was largely irrelevant? I don't think they do.

I also think it was telling that WWDC featured a demo of Unreal tech to showcase Metal. Why would they do this if they did not recognize at least some demand for games on the Mac? Why didn't they demo some Adobe product instead with benchmarks of improved performance or whatnot? Presumably they could have chosen some other graphics application if they wanted to including writing a demo for the purpose. I suspect Mac games sell well on the Mac App Store. I doubt that is lost on Apple even if all things considered, gaming on OS X is not the same priority as other irons in the fire at the company. I highly doubt that Apple is unaware of the Mac gaming market and the major players catering to it such as Steam, Battle.net, GOG and EA/Origin and of course the leading porting companies Aspyr and Feral. None of that would be happening without sufficient demand and sales to drive it. All of these companies are making enough money to feel the effort is worthwhile. This goes back to the idea of being a small slice of the pie does not equate to being an irrelevant one.

I think we'll see needed improvements to Metal over time but as usual the wheels turn slowly with some things of lesser priority. So personally, I don't buy a long term scenario of doom and gloom myself. In contrast, I think the future looks very bright. That said, my expectations have never included a stunning transition to full DX 12 feature parity on OS X in a first release of a new API. I know I am exaggerating there as I doubt anybody else would either but I think in the initial excitement expectations may have been a little too high overall.

I think we'll continue to see progress going forward and I commend and thank the developers who have to navigate this transition while trying to deliver the best gaming experiences they can to us on OS X. I just saw some benchmarking videos of Feral's new Mordor release on hardware similar to my own iMac and was impressed by how well it ran and how nice it looks. I was also impressed by the way it was easy to scale the display resolution by percentage. It's just a nice touch when you have options like this and built in benchmarking that helps a lot in getting the best experience on your own hardware although typically I have found the conservative defaults set by Aspyr and Feral both tend to be good starting places anyway. I don't know if that was something Feral added in or is just part of the game on other platforms too. I bring this up because here is a game where Metal doesn't even come into play yet and a great experience can be had on the Mac just the same thanks to no small amount of hard work on Feral's part I am sure.
 
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The fact that the Mac is growing in a stagnant PC market should give you every indication that Apple cares about the Mac. No one invents a brand new programming language and graphics API in 2015 for a platform they don't care about.
 
Are shader compilers the responsibility of the GPU vendors or Apple?

All I can really say is that only the vendors know how to generate GPU specific code from the shading language & I can see that Metal will be much better than OpenGL in the end. It should end up being comparable to D3D - its just brand new software right now, with all that implies.
 
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Possibility is still that AMD cracked not only OpenCL drivers for El Capitan, and there will be CF support.

Supporting multiple GPUs through CrossFire on Mac Metal would require support from Apple as well as AMD. We don't have it - as you can see in the published docs - but I'd love to see it too.

Not sure what you mean by 'cracked ... OpenCL drivers' though.
 
I would disagree with that idea. The Mac is and will continue to be an important part of the Apple ecosystem as a whole...

OS X is an essential component of the Apple ecosystem without which iOS could not function as is. Without Macs, iOS app development would have to take place on Windows and almost certainly within Visual Studio - which would result in the same kind of loss of control that Jobs bemoaned Apple had ceded to Metrowerks CodeWarrior during the PPC days. That's not the way of Apple post-second-coming.

I also think it was telling that WWDC featured a demo of Unreal tech to showcase Metal. Why would they do this if they did not recognize at least some demand for games on the Mac? Why didn't they demo some Adobe product instead with benchmarks of improved performance or whatnot? Presumably they could have chosen some other graphics application if they wanted to including writing a demo for the purpose.

For marketing to a wide audience games make much more impressive live demos ;)
You also have to get someone in to write the demo - and not every company (see Brad's comments) will always be in a position to do that for you. I'm glad that we were!

I suspect Mac games sell well on the Mac App Store. I doubt that is lost on Apple even if all things considered, gaming on OS X is not the same priority as other irons in the fire at the company. I highly doubt that Apple is unaware of the Mac gaming market and the major players catering to it such as Steam, Battle.net, GOG and EA/Origin and of course the leading porting companies Aspyr and Feral. None of that would be happening without sufficient demand and sales to drive it. All of these companies are making enough money to feel the effort is worthwhile. This goes back to the idea of being a small slice of the pie does not equate to being an irrelevant one.

Certainly they aren't unaware but Mac gaming, even with the MAS, is pretty small fry in the grand scheme of things. The Mac is maybe 10% of Windows, which is maybe 10% of consoles, so perhaps only 1% of the traditional gaming market. It isn't nothing & for a lot of big games it is now genuinely important to get those extra sales either directly through in-house support, like us at Epic & our friends at Blizzard, or through the fine folks at Aspyr & Feral. Mobile, which inevitably is Apple's real focus, is probably 10x larger still and the need to be able to develop iOS Metal games clearly comes into this as I alluded to earlier.

I think we'll see needed improvements to Metal over time but as usual the wheels turn slowly with some things of lesser priority. So personally, I don't buy a long term scenario of doom and gloom myself. In contrast, I think the future looks very bright. That said, my expectations have never included a stunning transition to full DX 12 feature parity on OS X in a first release of a new API. I know I am exaggerating there as I doubt anybody else would either but I think in the initial excitement expectations may have been a little too high overall.

I think we'll continue to see progress going forward and I commend and thank the developers who have to navigate this transition while trying to deliver the best gaming experiences they can to us on OS X.

I couldn't agree more - that's an excellent summation.
 
I just saw some benchmarking videos of Feral's new Mordor release on hardware similar to my own iMac and was impressed by how well it ran and how nice it looks.

Yep - pairing OpenGL and OpenCL to accomplish this port was no mean feat by my former colleagues & I can only applaud them & enjoy the game.

I was also impressed by the way it was easy to scale the display resolution by percentage. It's just a nice touch when you have options like this and built in benchmarking that helps a lot in getting the best experience on your own hardware although typically I have found the conservative defaults set by Aspyr and Feral both tend to be good starting places anyway. I don't know if that was something Feral added in or is just part of the game on other platforms too.

Not sure about Mordor or other Feral games, but UE4 also has percentage-based screen scaling as an engine feature. Its a darn useful thing to have to eke out a few more FPS for minimal quality loss and was graphics programmers favourite trick on 360 & PS3...

Benchmark modes tend to be in the original game when you are porting. It can make it a lot easier to get help from Apple & the GPU vendors if there is one.
 
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The Mac is maybe 10% of Windows, which is maybe 10% of consoles


PC gaming is a bigger market than consoles. It is however a very different market, where there's no longer really much of a physical store presence, and it's not dominated by a relatively few AAA games that you pay $60 for. Instead there are millions of people playing stuff like free-to-play MOBAs and so on, where the most popular ones rake in huge amounts of cash, more than most console games (as in hundreds of millions of dollars).

--Eric
 
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PC gaming is a bigger market than consoles. It is however a very different market, where there's no longer really much of a physical store presence, and it's not dominated by a relatively few AAA games that you pay $60 for. Instead there are millions of people playing stuff like free-to-play MOBAs and so on, where the most popular ones rake in huge amounts of cash, more than most console games (as in hundreds of millions of dollars).

--Eric

For clarity, I was referring only to sales/revenue of AAA games that come to all of the platforms, since that is the only valid direct comparison I can make. It is a pretty rough rule of thumb, but is reflective of the breakdown of sales across platforms for AAA releases over the last decade or so. It doesn't factor in things that only exist on desktop or mobile, since they can't be directly compared.

Successful games, of whatever type, are the exception and not the rule. When GTA V rakes in $1 billion in < 3 days and games like DOTA, WOW etc are making $100 millions annually it is clear that one approach is not better than the other, they are just different.
 
Welp with OpenGL ES 3.2 getting announced today (basically 3.1 + AEP which includes tessellation) and Android committed to using it as well as Vulkan. The pressure is on Apple to maintain the Metal API for their mobile platform or be left behind. I don't think Apple is willing to let that happen. We'll see come the September iOS hardware refresh.
 
Welp with OpenGL ES 3.2 getting announced today (basically 3.1 + AEP which includes tessellation) and Android committed to using it as well as Vulkan. The pressure is on Apple to maintain the Metal API for their mobile platform or be left behind. I don't think Apple is willing to let that happen. We'll see come the September iOS hardware refresh.

Very much a pre-announcement as it will take some time to filter through to devices in the hands of users. Depending on exactly how aggressive Google & H/W vendors are Apple could possibly even wait until next year to update iOS Metal with new rendering features and still get into user's hands first. Certainly Apple will update Metal for additional rendering features over time but only they know when that will be and they aren't often moved by announcements from competitors.
 
Since El Capitan has been released, so i have question for those with El Capitan.

Did you saw any improvement with Metal? I'm not only talking about games, but apps in general?
 
I have seen a general improvement of GUI behavior (going fullscreen and navigation among windows, etc).

I'm more interested in if anyone has yet seen any Metal optimized games?
 
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I would imagine games/apps will have to be updated to support Metal, right? Nothing I have on my iMac has any updates at this time.
 
I would imagine games/apps will have to be updated to support Metal, right? Nothing I have on my iMac has any updates at this time.

Correct. The normal cast of reps we usually have here on the forums are strangely silent on this.

Curiosity and speculation fills the silence, of course. :)
 
I have seen an improvement with GUI as well, hope some games from Feral or Aspyr get updated as well, if possible, to take advantage of Metal.
 
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I don't know if he has inside info on the UE4 Metal port, but this sounds promising when he says that the system requirements will change drastically.

Remember the Ars' performance analysis of GFxBench you yourself posted on the other thread:


Be careful of claims that sound too good to be true and analysis of incomplete software. Both can be misleading.
 
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DX12, Metal & Vulkan are effectively trying to solve the same problem, though their initial features sets might not be the same the goal is: Low CPU overhead, direct(-ish) access to the GPU via a minimal & sane hardware abstraction API. You only need one of the three. I really don't see where OpenGL or OpenCL fit in this brave new world except as legacy technologies supported for backward compatibility with existing code.
Yeah, but If I had the full Open APIs I would be able to run The Witcher 3 or Batman Arkham Asylum on my Mac now as the barriers for porting would be fairly low.
 
Yeah, but If I had the full Open APIs I would be able to run The Witcher 3 or Batman Arkham Asylum on my Mac now as the barriers for porting would be fairly low.

You can get Arkham Asylum right now: Batman: Arkham Asylum for Mac | Feral Interactive, so I guess you mean Arkham Knight. As for your underlying point it would have been much easier for us as developers had Apple continued to advance OpenGL, at least to 4.3, since then we'd have had rough feature parity with DX11.

However that still wouldn't have made it easy to port games, so you might still be waiting for them ;)

The bigger problem for newer titles is that their minimum system requirements on PC now demand a GPU that is faster than those found in the majority of Macs. Which graphics API you use is pretty much irrelevant in that context.
 
Indeed, Apple's GPUs don't have a prayer at running Arkham Knight at native resolution. The only hope for OS X is that Thunderbolt 3 will support an external GPU option allowing us to get an external PCI chassis with a modern GPU inside.
 
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