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Absolutely, because that's exactly what people outside the macosphere do. "Pro" laptops have an actual range of form factors. For example, you can actually do VR on a windows laptop. Throughout apple's range, the biggest limiter on performance and reliability, is insufficient cooling to do the sort of work that people want to do with their gear.

The problem with Apple, and this is just as true in their desktop machines, is the presumption that "thin & light" is desirable, or something that shouldn't be compromised.

True, but that's from the point of view that Apple is just a computer company like Dell. If they were then they would have arrange of laptop form factors. But Apple isn't that type of company and I don't think they should be. I would really not like to see chunky laptops in their stores.

Some people on the MacBook Pro forum have correctly pointed out that the reason you have people pushing the laptop too hard (3D rendering for Chrissake) is because Apple hasn't released the Mac Pro yet, which is the machine that is supposed to be doing that type of work. Correct.

So we are back to the topic. Modular Mac Pro. I don't think it will be late. Just don't expect it in January 2018. Most likely announced in the summer and shipping in Fall. I think the Blackmagic eGPU gives a clue to the design - silent, most likely Space Gray, and if it will be upgradable it will be with Apple parts. That's good. PC parts are cool for my PC but I don't want those designs in my future Mac Pro. I want the design ethic from inside to outside to be consistent.
 
Some people on the MacBook Pro forum have correctly pointed out that the reason you have people pushing the laptop too hard (3D rendering for Chrissake)

Jebus, "pushing a laptop too hard"? No, it's not the users' fault. This is a laptop which is inadequately cooled to run the components it contains. Nothing more. Just like the 2013 Mac Pro - inadequately cooled, so it burned out its GPUs.

Clearly, you care about the fashion of Apple's products, more than the design. It makes you a good customer for the Apple of today.

The Blackmagic eGPU does hint at some very Apple-like qualities - it uses an Apple-specific version of the word "pro" in its card's moniker, which means "lower performance than the equivalent retail product". It can support 2 displays, rather than the retail card's 5 (understandable given Thunderbolt can't supply enough bandwidth for all the displays the card is capable of driving), and it's radically overpriced compared to the alternatives. It's a very "Apple" product.

The great joke of course, is that Blackmagic's highest end products still don't work in the Apple ecosystem, for want of pci slots.
 
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Jebus, "pushing a laptop too hard"? No, it's not the users' fault. This is a laptop which is inadequately cooled to run the components it contains.

You don't have this laptop. I have this laptop. I have the last gen and the gen before that and the gen before that.

In almost all tasks suitable for laptops this 2018 model shows 20-30% improvement over last year. That is exactly what one should expect when you have two additional cores but slower clock speed than previous. That is a massive gain.

Furthermore, for two years Intel promised 10nm process by now. They kept stone walling, failing and changing their roadmap. It must have been a headache for Jonny Ive's design team. If they expected 10nm there was no reason to redesign the chassis. They did an excellent job in this context.

If you're arguing against this you're just beating your head against a wall for no good reason.

Intel are now saying 10nm end of next year.
 
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You don't have this laptop. I have this laptop. I have the last gen and the gen before that and the gen before that.

In almost all tasks suitable for laptops this 2018 model shows 20-30% improvement over last year. That is exactly what one should expect when you have two additional cores but slower clock speed than previous. That is a massive gain.

I still don't buy this idea of tasks being "suitable for laptops" - in the Windows world there are laptops which are more powerful than Apple's fastest Desktop. There are no "laptop tasks" there are only tasks.

On the Mac, VR is something that can only be done (well) on the biggest, heaviest most expensive desktop Apple currently makes. Get a Windows laptop with an equivalent GPU, and VR is something you can do on a device <20mm thick. So is VR a "laptop task" or a "desktop task"?

What you're saying by "suitable for laptops" is really "suitable for Apple laptops", and unfortunately for Apple, a lot of content creation pros are moving beyond that arbitrary cutoff.

Furthermore, for two years Intel promised 10nm process by now. They kept stone walling, failing and changing their roadmap. It must have been a headache for Jonny Ive's design team. If they expected 10nm there was no reason to redesign the chassis. They did an excellent job in this context.

If you're arguing against this you're just beating your head against a wall for no good reason.

Intel are now saying 10nm end of next year.

Complaining about Intel is like blaming gravity for the results of jumping off a cliff - The processors that exist, are the processors that exist. That's reality, immutable and unchanging. The fact that Apple is so committed to a case that was designed in anticipation of a 10nm processor, and therefore isn't suitable for the 14nm processors they ended up being able to get, is a testament to the failure of Apple's design philosophy, not Intel's.

Dust is a part of reality as well, was it reality's fault that Apple's keyboards can't handle it, or was it Apple's for coming up with a design for a mobile product, that can't handle being out of a cleanroom environment?

It's not reasonable to plan for a best case scenario, and then complain that the results are some unavoidable fault of fate, when the worst case scenario happens.
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Furthermore, for two years Intel promised 10nm process by now. They kept stone walling, failing and changing their roadmap. It must have been a headache for Jonny Ive's design team. If they expected 10nm there was no reason to redesign the chassis.

To continue on that point, it's further evidence of the inherent Black Swan fragility of Apple's culture. It's creation of a safe harbour for NIH attitudes effectively killed them prior to NeXT's takeover, and it's their biggest existential threat now (assuming they haven't crossed into a critical mass that is essentially failure-proof, just by virtue of the return they can get on their invested cash hoard that's unrelated to their actual products and services).

Apple's problem, is that their designs are brittle - they designed for a 10nm chip, and when that didn't come about, the calls from the Apple sphere is that they should go to ARM. They designed the Mac Pro for dual low-power GPUs, and when that paradigm didn't come about... they lost 5+ years of relevance in the Workstation market.

Rather than calling for their design culture to change, to become flexible, and shock-tolerant to events that are outside of their control, Apple's culture seeks to own and eliminate that variability. The results - "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

I go back to this article regularly https://misfitsarchitecture.com/2013/09/29/architectural-myths-8-clean-lines/ since it's pretty applicable to Apple's design issues.
 
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Apple is going through some growing pains, with most of it's profits derived from iPhones, the Mac line has languished. However customers will always bring you back to reality.

But what is that reality, will Apple see the loss of sales as a sign they need to make Macs that are more inline with customer needs or will they see it as a sign that they no longer need to try and compete in the computer space.

In the end of the day, Apple can not ignore the needs of all customers, but can ignore some customers.
 
I still don't buy this idea of tasks being "suitable for laptops" - in the Windows world there are laptops which are more powerful than Apple's fastest Desktop. There are no "laptop tasks" there are only tasks.
I agree with the 100%. I have a top of the line 2012 rMBP and it has no issues maintaining its base clock speed when performing CPU intensive tasks (in my testing this means Handbrake encoding). I find nothing wrong with this larger form factor and would be happy to see its return.
 
More like they used the Plan B, aborting a bad design.
Or, as seems apparent from the MP6,1, the iMac Pro, and the MBP2018 and some other recent designs - "Plan A" was to build something thin and beautiful, and then throttle everything back to fit the form factor. (Although they might have failed on "Plan A" with the MP6,1 - as evidenced by the very high number of GPU failures.)
 
Giving people a choice between a turd sandwich, and a water biscuit, and finding that people overwhelmingly choose the water biscuit, isn't an endorsement for the nutritional value, flavour and desirability of the latter as a preferred food item.

That's really where Apple's "streamlining/optimization" stuff under Tim Cook kicks them in the teeth, as not having choices denies them insight visibility into their own consumers. Apple literally doesn't have the data to really know how many of their non-TB 13" MBP customers bought it because it was cheaper, versus because it was the only MBP choice that didn't have the TB forced upon them.
 
Apple is known to make excuses. They said 2019 because they haven’t found a way to solder mMP. I’m waiting to use all my gift card on this and move on.
 
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Apple will get to it when they feel like it.. Mac Pro's have obviously fell off their 'important list years ago.
Don't hold your breath. it will get here when it does. Having had Darth Vader's head for 3 years now, and gone thru a few serious issues with it.. I tolerate it. It's nice that it's small. But then when you plug in everything you need.. It's quite expensive, and quite spread out. I'd rather have it in one box again. The neurotic changing of connectors they've made in the last 3 years frightens me. As soon as you commit to something, they've decided on a new connector. Jamming all those connectors into a tiny space was a joke.. You try to adjust one, and 3 come loose. They dropped military spec of connectors quite a few years ago. So connections are not always solid. Some connectors, I jam a piece of folded paper in there, on others I use another adaptor. Some jacks can actually 'rock' in their socket.. Pretty discouraging for a $6K machine. Because I'm totally dedicated to Logic Pro, using it before Apple bought it. I'm stuck.. At one point, I had to keep a muffin fan on top of the unit to suck out the excess heat.

But then again, they really aren't any worse than the other companies out there. it is what it is, not what you'd like it to be. But the bottom line, is I still will go with a Mac.
 
There's a lot of wrong things going at Intel, but this week they leaked that Ice Lake-SP Xeons on 10nm are for 2020. So, maybe 2019 is lost for the new new Mac Pro.

Perhaps Apple is waiting them to unlock the thermal corner, trying to not repeat MP6,1. If Apple really wants to go with Ice Lake-SP, better they show us something and fast…

At least, all this problems at Intel kept the classic Mac Pro support for one more year, maybe two, since Apple usually drops Mac support on one year and keep the same supported list on the next.

Why not use AMD? They are shipping 32core processors. It wouled also be delicious punishment of Intel.
 
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Why not use AMD? They are shipping 32core processors. It wouled also be delicious punishment of Intel.

Can AMD handle the whole Mac line up? How does Intel dole out discounts ( on a per processor model basis or major product group or engagement with the Intel) ? If going AMD on one very low volume product means loosing some Intel discounts on rest of the product line up it may not be worth it.

The hang ups on AMD have been

1. Can they deliver something that is competitive at all?

2. Can they fab it sufficient quantities ?

3. Are they the best fit for Mac products?


Yes they have something competitive. Supply was decent in 2017 ( there are screw ups in other years though). Best fit isn't necessarily just core counts.


Strategically, I don't think Apple wants to slam the door on Intel at the moment. Intel jumping into the GPU business could give Apple two major vendors to choose from ( if dust up between Apple and Nvidia lingers far into future). Apple is already leaning on AMD heavily in GPU. ( with fab transition hiccups too over last 2-4 years. ). Intel did custom binned Xeon W's for Apple. So Intel was responsive with what they had. So "punishing" them for that isn't going to win Apple friends in the supplier world.

If Intel gives cross business discounts then Apple buying cell radios from Intel in a massive uptick should get them more discounts.

The Mac Pro isn't solely about x86 core counts wars. This "bump" of Threadripper is lighting up cores that were 'dark' before. Get a core count increase, but probably with a tradeoff in base clock (and perhaps Turbo ). The TDP is up. It is somewhat a "replay" of what has happened more than few times with AMD GPUs to Apple along the way. ( performance through more heat). That's one of the problems that current Mac Pro had with parts evolution.

Jumping to AMD would make some sense if both Mac Pro and iMac jumped, the thunderbolt foundation was at least as solid as Intel solution, and Intel's plan for 10nm -> future nm looked like they still didn't know what the root/core problems were and AMD's looks like they have they stuff together. It wouldn't be so much a punishment of Intel, but jumping onto a more stable path forward.


( Personally, I think Intel can make 10nm at volume. It is about as much the profit margin they'd get as the technology that is the problem. They wouldn't go broke doing it but they wouldn't have the margins their major stockholders want . Kind of a "bridge too far" without making the jump to extreme UV. )

A Mac Pro that is a derivative evolution off central core of the iMac Pro logic design would be safer and faster to spin up that going full scale complete tangent to rest of Mac line up. ( they could get it up and booting more quickly. )
 
Not only does thread ripper have more cores, it has more bandwidth, more lanes. They also got their fab game set. They have simply out played Intel. I dont know if Apple would need to change the line on all machines. But I for one would prefer AMD. It's the better architecture right now. Bandwidth in particular, for a new mac pro, would be really important in the number of supported lanes (I think it's 64 lanes on the thread ripper).
 
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