More evidence ATV is fast becoming abandonware

[Tilpots]

DISH's coverage area in US-only, no? And can you ever see Steve Jobs approving something that requires an ugly satellite dish?!

Few more satellites could make it global... And if Steve Jobs made it a dish, it'd be tiny and oh, so beautiful. Everybody'd want one. I think satellite dishes are the Tennessee state flower, so that's got to give it some "looks" cred, right?

 

[spice weasel]

Bah. You can't even tell 720p from 1080p in most living room setups. And your 1080p camcorder is heavily compressed anyway.

Resolution belongs in the same category as megapixels and thread count - over-rated marketing pitches.

Get a Tivo HD if you want a nice DVR.

ATVs problems are almost entirely price and content related.

Putting aside the debate over whether there is a discernible difference between 720p and 1080p for most viewers, there is also the fps ceiling on the ATV. The ATV can't handle 720p/30fps, meaning that all progressive HD camcorder content needs to be scaled down. Now we're not talking about 720 vs 1080, but 540 vs 1080.

The bottom line is that while different people would like an updated ATV to do different things, it should at the very least be able to handle 1080p/30fps. It's not like this is some unattainable hardware goal.

Oh, and please Apple, give us a better remote. God I hate that damn thing.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Few more satellites could make it global... And if Steve Jobs made it a dish, it'd be tiny and oh, so beautiful. Everybody'd want one. I think satellite dishes are the Tennessee state flower, so that's got to give it some "looks" cred, right?

While I doubt it would happen, Apple certainly has the cash to make a play for both DISH and TIVO (and then some). DISH would give Apple a high-bandwith point-to-point platform (bypassing constrained bandwith pipes) that could do many things beyond serving up television. TIVO patents would be a nice acquisition for their patent portfolio, and DVR functionality is another oft-requested enhancement for TV (and Apple has patented a few DVR-related innovations in the last decade).

Some say they don't want to add DVR capabilities to a new Apple TV as it would cannibalize the iTunes model. But, Apple keeps saying they have iTunes to sell hardware, not iTunes content. If they don't make much from the sales of iTunes content, why should they care much about people getting some content "for free" via DVR? Besides, Elgato solutions are readily available for anyone who wants DVR "for free" content anyway.

Apple has also embraced subscription models for the iPhone & TV, and I'm sure they've developed a great appreciation for the profit-leveraging power of using subscription accounting vs. cash accounting. Adding DISH subscriptions AND TIVO subscriptions would be a nice way to reduce their tax bill via deferred liability (via subscription accounting).

All in all, this "what if" would be a "wow" event, in a number of ways that reach far beyond just what an ultimate TV platform could be. Both the cable and communications industries would probably freak.

If Jobs came out on stage today and said, "One more thing..." and proceeded to roll out the news that Apple is buying either or both companies and the new TV would blend the best of the technologies in a nice Apple way, I can just picture cable & communications monopolists needing an immediate change of pants.

 

[jaw04005]

Look around at the plethora of hardware priced well below TV that can output 1080p.

The Apple TV can output 1080p. There's a big difference between outputting 1080p and being able to play back 1080p content.

Nevertheless, I can easily SEE the difference between 720p and 1080p as I referenced in my post (so apparently I am not the "You" to which you refer). The 720p version of the same video vs. hooking the camcorder directly to the TV and playing it native (1080p) is clearly inferior. Pretty much anyone can see it in this kind of head-to-head.

You do realize that could just as easily be your HDTV's built-in scaler? So, it's an anecdotal argument.

For example, I have a friend who will argue to he's blue in the face that 1080i "looks better" on his 720p HDTV than 720p. Yet, I know 1080i is not inherently better than 720p from a technological standpoint. What he likes is the over-processed scaling effect that tends to sharpen the image when his HDTV scales down the 1080i signal to 1366x768. But you couldn't explain that to him. He's sees at as a one-sided issue, 1080 is larger than 720 so it's automatically better.

There's a lot of that similar logic going on about 1080p.

It's an interesting debate, scientifically, though. HDTV Magazine did an interview with Mark Schubin about this very issue.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/07/in_the_eye_of_t.php

Either way, my point is mute. They should add 1080p play back support just to shut you guys up.

Putting aside the debate over whether there is a discernible difference between 720p and 1080p for most viewers, there is also the fps ceiling on the ATV. The ATV can't handle 720p/30fps, meaning that all progressive HD camcorder content needs to be scaled down. Now we're not talking about 720 vs 1080, but 540 vs 1080.

Actually, it can handle 720p, 30 FPS as Dynaflash likes the point out. It's just the iTunes won't let it. If you manually copy the content over (avoiding iTunes' artificial limitation) it plays fine.

I think the 24/25 FPS limitation is there so Apple wouldn't have to encode movies at 24 FPS and TV Shows at 30 FPS on the iTunes store. Or maybe 30 FPS really pushes the GPU, I dunno. Either way, that needs to be lifted.

 

[NightStorm]

Nightstorm, you might want to think about the idea of storing 2 sets of content for the 2 TVs. For example, if you have a lot of HD content, and you "max it out" for the 720p TV in your bedroom, that content won't look as good on that future living room set, capable of higher resolution. Upscaling from a lower resolution master can't create as good of a picture. On the other hand, if you render your content for the future (living room 1080p) set, downscaling those videos to 720p from a higher/highest quality render is generally no problem (looks fantastic on both sets).

Of course, relative to the current TV hardware, this is all for nothing, as it can't handle full bandwith 720p or 1080i/p (though 720p output can look better than DVD even compressed as it is for the current TV limitations). But, should Apple finally roll out 1080p-capable TV (or should you use a Mac Mini or many other current hardware options capable of outputting 1080p), you may find it simpler to simply render your video for max resolution and then downscale to lesser resolution devices.

Downscaling from a great source yields a fantastic picture at any lower resolution. However upscaling from a lower-resolution source yields a less-than-optimal picture at higher resolution. More simply, if you scale down a big jpg, it will still look great as the picture size shrinks. But if you scale up a small jpp to a bigger size, the jaggies appear. Same basic concept applies (though it is better disguised in moving pictures).

TVs upscale all the time... all major broadcasters in the US use either 720p or 1080i. The newer generation of upscaling chips do it very well.

As you alluded to, to support a 1080p AppleTV along with my current 720p one (which would move to the bedroom) with the best picture on each, I'd need to create 2 HD versions. Of course, this would be on top of the iPhone-compatible version I also create, so I'd end up with three copies of the same movie. Because I can't imagine trying to manage this very efficiently, I've already decided that I'll keep my 720p encodes for casual viewing, and go back to the Bluray/HDDVD originals if I want 1080p.

 

[MikeDTyke]

As much as i'd love an TV update i'm loath to say it's unlikely to happen tomorrow (irk, EDIT, TODAY).

Sure we might get some new content deals and a firmware update with some minor enhancements, in the similar vein that we've gotten over the last 2 years. But what everyone here seems to be looking for is a little further out.

TV as it stands is too expensive to build for 's taste. Their profit margin is much tighter than any other product. This is due to the Intel processor and ATI GPU coupled with a laptop class HD.

For it to compete it needs move to iPhone class hardware, which is an order cheaper being an embedded SoC. Only problem is that up until now this chipset couldn't do HD decoding. The samsung chip in the 3G (S) can do 720p decodes. But then why redesign the whole thing just to deliver the exact same specs, unless your only purpose is to save costs?

I believe the rumours about PA Semi building 2 processors for Apple are true. One is a low end chip for mobile phones/iPods, the other is in a new class sitting between the standard ARM and ATOM processors. ie. a device that has a standby usage like an ARM but a peak throughput like a dual core ATOM.

Such a chip would be useful for devices like tablets/netbooks, but also by virtue of reducing chip count and basic cost compared to the intel solution you end up with a much more embedded solution.

Based on the fact that Apple is currently sitting on a number of awesome UI patents for TV interfaces and remotes and the fact that the current platform seems to be at a dead end (hardware wise). I think they'll just keep things ticking over until the new platform is ready. As the PA Semi deal was completed last summer and the shortest lead time is about 18 months from start to working silicon, i suspect we won't see the next gen embedded platform from Apple til early next year.

NGEP, i likes the sound of that.... must use in more posts.

 

[ftaok]

I'm a very vocal supporter of AppleTV including a DVR. But only for OTA content. Forget the cable companies, because they are the iTunes competition. Spend your $ with them or with Apple, spending on both, though, is ridiculous. However, the major network OTA stuff is being beamed into our homes for free. Let us record that and then buy our cable content from iTunes.

If Elgato, TiVo and even Microsoft can make DVR hardware and software, then Apple can too. Apple will then have the benefit of offering supplemental content thru iTMS, something they have perfected. Sure, you can get a mini and then buy Elgato's offering, but it's overkill and expensive.

Adding DVR capabilities to the aTV would increase the unit price for something that few people will use. Limiting it to OTA will further marginalize it's usefulness.

Personally, I'd rather the aTV get a couple of useable USB ports and have Apple issue an SDK for the aTV OS. That way, companies like El Gato and Hauppauge can bundle their DVR software with a hybrid type tuner for USB. Doing it this way would encourage a healthy developer following for the aTV.

If Apple wants to get into the DVR game, they could write their own software, etc. However, I doubt they want to get into the headaches that accompany TV Listings. They'd have to deal with Rovi to get the TVGOS listings or do it themselves. Big hassle.

 

[Macwick]

I guess. Although, I don’t think the vocal minority that keeps demanding 1080p support is wanting it to watch their kids in full 1080p glory.

The main reason I’m indifferent to 1080p is simply because I don’t think most people care. They’re perfectly content with watching SD in stretch-o-vision or over-compressed 720p and 1080i on their cable or satellite systems.

But point taken. I think they should add it just to fill that checkbox.

It's not just 'watching their kids in full 1080p glory'. I have a 1080i 30fps camcorder. In order to watch the footage on Apple TV, I have to downconvert it to 720p and 24fps. It is the frames per second that really sucks - the movies look like Charlie Chaplain movies - they are very jumpy and hard on the eyes. I would be happy with 720p/30fps....

 

[Flynnstone]

Bah. You can't even tell 720p from 1080p in most living room setups. And your 1080p camcorder is heavily compressed anyway.

Resolution belongs in the same category as megapixels and thread count - over-rated marketing pitches.

Get a Tivo HD if you want a nice DVR.

ATVs problems are almost entirely price and content related.

That may be true, but ...
If you have a 1080P TV and you think Apple will come out with a 1080P AppleTV, then you wait. Well thats what I'm waiting for.

 

[dmm219]

well well...new build of iTunes...not even a MENTION of ATV.

Face it folks, ATV, in its current form...is now dead.

Again, they may have something brand new in the pipeline, that will replace the ATV in the future...but the current configuration is now dead.

Hopefully, in a year or two, we will have a brand new Apple TV 2, that is better in every way, and probably operates entirely different from the current (failed) ATV model.

 

[fpnc]

...Face it folks, ATV, in its current form...is now dead...

It isn't dead, it's just in an infrequent software update cycle. As I and MikeDTyke noted, the Apple TV is by far the lowest margin hardware product that Apple makes. Thus, you can't really expect them to remain busy at improving the hardware when they have so many other products that are making tons of margin and money. Besides, as I noted in my original post the Apple TV hardware is still perfectly adequate for its intended purpose -- which is principally to display iTunes content. It's also still relatively competitive as a media extender when you consider that some of its features are still unique or rare in the marketplace.

I'm not saying that the Apple TV is a state-of-the-art, best-in-class product, but it's at least okay and then some. My only current wish is that it could display 720p at 30fps, that would make it far easier to use as a display device for HD cameras.

 

[dynaflash]

lol. nothing but iTunes and iPods were going to get updated at this event. Its not like it's a big surprise. Even the vaunted tablet was not going to get introduced here. Maybe the atv is dead, maybe not. Only time will tell. Personally I very much doubt it. Too much invested at this point.

 

[hitekalex]

Again, they may have something brand new in the pipeline, that will replace the ATV in the future...but the current configuration is now dead

And your point is what? Current configuration of anything is always "dead", relative to the upcoming new versions.

Apple released v2.4 firmware for ATV little over 2 months ago. So I don't know why you're being so dramatic about it not getting any updates at today's iTunes/iPod event.

 

[Buzz Bumble]

Though there had been speculation that a possible refresh or price drop of the Apple TV could occur at the Sept. 9 event, one report said industry watchers should not expect an appearance by the hardware at Apple's media-centric keynote.

The only "speculation" was by people who know nothing (mostly "journalists"). It's a "music event", so was always going to be only about iPods and iTunes. Despite what that same story claimed further up, the ATV is not an iPod.

 

[Tilpots]

The only good thing I'm taing away from today's event is that the iPod's finally got an FM receiver. That gives me hope that an OTA video tuner is in the realm of possibilities.

BTW, the AppleTV is an iPod, at least that's how Apple classifies it. Look at their site and where it's listed; under the iPod+iTunes tab. So for there not to be even a mention of it today during an iPod and iTunes event, certainly says a lot about what they think of their own product.

 

[zedsdead]

I am actually happy. The iTunes Extra and iTunes LP seem a perfect fit for the Apple TV. Apple needs to vastly expand the HD Purchases in addition to this.

 

[BORIStheBLADE]

I'm glad they put a camera on a ipod... SO needed that.

Its not like everybody's phones dont have them..