“MOST EXCITING digital photography news this year”

[tony-in-japan]

Read what is happening..

Not happening. Any serious SLR user would already have invested in "full size" lenses and equipment for Nikon and Canons.

Sensors in most digital cameras are already a small sensor, compred to 35mm film.

Nikon already have DX lenses that are designed for the small sensors.

It will end up like that small film format which failed. It's just a gimmick, some people will buy it, but professionals won't. By the way one benefit of a full size camera is that heavier camera = less likely to shake

I am sorry, but have you actually been reading what the m4/3rds is all about and who it is aimed for?

The target audience is not professionals interested in FF sensors and heavy bodies. It is more designed for consumers stepping up from P&S and prosumer users who want compact, light but with high-quality IQ.

I can also envision professionals interested in a back-up compact interested in this 4/3rds system too. It doesn’t intend to replace traditional DSLRs, but can complement them.

 

[ChrisA]

A cheap M8?

So they are talking about a Leica M8 but sold at a much lower price point?

http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m8/

This new class of camera sounds almost exactly like an M8 but with a new lens mount and no optical viewfinders although nothing would preclude a rangefinder style viewfinder.

 

[ChrisA]

This would be the "perfect" underwater camera for diving. Under water is inherently low light and the larger sensor will help but it is not so easy to see through the viewfinder of an SLR when you have to look through both the housing window and a dive mask. Also being compact is very nice because the housing is smaller so it has less air inside which means less lead used to make it sink. A big-sensor, compact camera will be ideal for this use.

 

[Westside guy]

It'll be interesting to watch this play out. We all carry our own preconceptions into this, and assume there's a boatload of people out there that share our wants/needs. That may or may not be the case.

Me (and my preconceptions)? After thinking about it a little, I'm wondering if it'll make much of a splash in the end. The OP quoted the first line of the DP announcement, but not the second - and I'm starting to think that's the really important part of it: "it's fair to say that this "extension / addition" to the Four Thirds standard is finally able to deliver on the original promise of that format" (emphasis mine). Basically the point of the statement is that Olympus hasn't, up until now, delivered on what they claimed they were going to offer with 4/3.

Nikon and Canon sales have been booming - and it's not the higher end cameras that have driven this. Olympus has already got smaller, lighter cameras than Nikon and Canon; but they haven't been able to chip away at the Big Two's market share. People are already switching from point-and-shoots to dSLRs. P&S sales are not projecting well.

In the end, I'm not sure m4/3 is going to find much more than a niche market - the folks that already own (or are looking at) 4/3 dSLRs. But yeah, I don't have any better idea than anyone else - so we'll just have to play it out.

 

[hector]

Surely this sort of camera is for the people who are stuck between the D40 and the G9? Those who want great image quality but don't want to have to lug around a big camera, and aren't particularly fussed about changing lenses.

I know loads of people who would be potential buyers of a really compact camera like this...

 

[miloblithe]

So they are talking about a Leica M8 but sold at a much lower price point?

http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m8/

This new class of camera sounds almost exactly like an M8 but with a new lens mount and no optical viewfinders although nothing would preclude a rangefinder style viewfinder.

Exactly what I thought, and a sub-$1000 rangefinder sounds awesome. Or maybe even sub-$500! I mean, how much is the least expensive Olympus right now?

 

[Westside guy]

Surely this sort of camera is for the people who are stuck between the D40 and the G9? Those who want great image quality but don't want to have to lug around a big camera, and aren't particularly fussed about changing lenses.

I know loads of people who would be potential buyers of a really compact camera like this...

Right, but doesn't Olympus already have that market? The question (in my opinion) really is - how many of those "loads of people" will buy this new Olympus camera but wouldn't have bought (or don't already own) an existing Olympus camera?

 

[miloblithe]

Right, but doesn't Olympus already have that market? The question (in my opinion) really is - how many of those "loads of people" will buy this new Olympus camera but wouldn't have bought (or don't already own) an existing Olympus camera?

Not really, but I think it's a small market. Enthusiasts who understand that the 1/1.6" sensor in a point and shoot cannot compare to a 4/3 or APS-C sensor are going to be interested in this kind of camera for its portability, assuming it's small enough. The Olympus E-420 really is not much smaller than APS-C cameras.

The E-420 is 5.1 x 3.6 x 2.1 inches.
The 450D is 5.1 x 3.9 x 2.4 inches.

sure it's smaller and lighter, but not significantly so. It's the same class of camera.

The DP1 on the other hand is 4.3 x 2.4 x 1.2 inches. Completely different scale.

If micro 4/3 is close to the DP1 than the E-420, it's a real alternative to a point and shoot. The E-420 is just a very slightly smaller SLR, and the minimal size advantage isn't really worth the hit to IQ.

 

[bousozoku]

This is as close a balance between genius and madness as anyone has thought to try.

I suspect it will cut a wide path through the current SLR-like market, by offering image quality that those cannot deliver, while offering familiar Live View feel to those who just want a pocket-able camera.

Olympus have better things in R&D for the current Four-Thirds format (if they'll just get them out the door, please) and this will just dip further into the 93 % of the market that doesn't have or doesn't want an SLR as big and heavy as the E-420.

 

[compuwar]

This is as close a balance between genius and madness as anyone has thought to try.

I suspect it will cut a wide path through the current SLR-like market, by offering image quality that those cannot deliver, while offering familiar Live View feel to those who just want a pocket-able camera.

I suspect not.
It looks to me that marketing aimed it squarely at folks who bought the E420- I think they're going to eat their own segment as much as anything.

1. Most of the folks outside the E420 crowd don't want to have to choose which lens to buy, let alone shoot.
2. The APS-C and APS-H crowd have a stop's better IQ- that's shooting in half as much light at the same quality, so any "answer" from the P&S division of any of the other companies is going to do well just using a sensor from teh dSLR division- no big resource hog to churn one out if you're Sony, Nikon or Canon if the Oly looks like it'll get any momentum or just to ensure it doesn't.
3. A lot of that segment just wants a better cell phone camera, and most of it doesn't dump the currrent P&S for new tech, they wait for the current one to die unless they're trading up to a bridge or dSLR.

Olympus have better things in R&D for the current Four-Thirds format (if they'll just get them out the door, please) and this will just dip further into the 93 % of the market that doesn't have or doesn't want an SLR as big and heavy as the E-420.

But if the primary argument for 4/3rds is smaller/lighter, then why would someone going for it want a bigger/heavier camera? We've already seen the bigger/smaller lens issues with FX and DX and the Canon equivalents- how many people here say "I want to just buy DX lenses because they're smaller/lighter?"

If you buy into micro 4/3, you'll get micro 4/3 lenses- they won't be compatible with 4/3 systems- if you don't want an E420, then an APS-C P&S seems like a much better solution.

I think this only works if nobody with a bigger sensor decides to do the same thing- otherwise the low-light side-by-side comparisons aren't going to be good.

I also don't see how this really helps normal 4/3 lens sales to achieve good volumes, since anyone going m4/3 is more likely to buy m4/3 lenses and not muck with an adapter.

The person upgrading from m4/3 to a larger body has to buy new lenses no matter what, and that's a brand switch point. That's not a strategic advantage.

 

[ChrisA]

The DP1 on the other hand is 4.3 x 2.4 x 1.2 inches. Completely different scale.

That's correct. The DP1 is about the same size as a traditional Leica range finder camera. The one they've been making for 50+ years. These camera are 35mm full frame and use interchangeable lenses but lack the mirror box and prism of an SLR. So with a 4/3 or APS-C size sensor the new camera could slightly smaller than a Leica but by only a few millimeters.

But what everyone here forgets is that that biggest thing you loose whaen you remove the penta prism and mirror box is cost. The mirror box, prism and focal plane shutter are big expensive mechanical devices. So these new camera will sell at a price point well below an entry level SLR. To most buyers price is the single most importent feature and the think they look for first. These should sell well.

Mirror boxes are expensive devices to make because they need to have very high level of mechanical precision. The optical path length from the lens to the sensor (or film) has to be exactly the same as the path length from lens to focus screen to within thousandths of an inch. Older camera used to use hair thin bras shims to make this adjustment. The mirror not only has to flip up and out of the way but return to the exact same place every time to within thousandths of an inch. It's hard to make a device that can do this tens or hundreds of thousands of times without fail.

 

[compuwar]

I have the E-420 and I wonder would I have bought this if I knew about the m4/3rds? Probably not.

This is why I think it may be a bad move for 4/3rds fans- if 75% of the 4/3rds market in the future becomes the m-4/3rds market, where does that leave 4/3rds?

While I agree with some of his points, the reality is that micro4/3rds will soon be something concrete, but micro-APS cameras? Nobody knows if this is even in Canon/Nikon’s pipeline (and if so, would they dedicate good R&D to its evolution?). Isn’t their battle on the FF front their priority?

No, their priority is gaining and keeping market share and margins- this may offset the margins piece some, but also as Thom talks about a rumored Coolpix, he's talking the P&S division, not the SLR division at Nikon- different resources, though with an APS-C sensor, they may get loaned some SLR resources, it's not a big deal- it won't impact their dSLR operations to do it, and I'd suspect the same is true of Canon or Sony. The only major difference is going to be lenses, as they would likely need to tool up a new line for the larger image circle.

I think Oly/Pana have the advantage also in that:

1. Olympus already has experience making smaller/lighter high-quality lenses. I think this will be their ace. The popularity of their recent Pancake and fantastic zooms (e.g. Zuiko 12-60mm) reveals what kind of lenses we can expect in the future.

Both Canon and Nikon make lots of small lenses inside and outside of the photographic world- I wouldn't rely on this as a strategic differentiator, most still images today come from those two giants- steppers, binoculars and riflescopes are all samall high-quality optics.

2. Panasonic is an electronic giant with expertise with LCD (Viera technology) and video (which will no doubt become part of the tech of m4/3rds cameras.) Imagine, recording video with DSLR standard lenses!? Very exciting.

Nikon has the best back-of-camera LCDs currently on the market. Canon's had SLR lens mount video for a whole bunch of years. All the world needs is more jumpy, poorly-lit single-chip video with bad sound!

 

[tony-in-japan]

Everyone should want 4/3rds to succeed...

The OP quoted the first line of the DP announcement, but not the second - and I'm starting to think that's the really important part of it: "it's fair to say that this "extension / addition" to the Four Thirds standard is finally able to deliver on the original promise of that format" (emphasis mine). Basically the point of the statement is that Olympus hasn't, up until now, delivered on what they claimed they were going to offer with 4/3.

To be fair to Olympus, at the time of the release of the existing 4/3rds, was the technology available to be able to create a compact Electronic Viewfinder with Interchangeable Lens camera? Even now in 2008, EVF technology or Live View is disappointing to most, so maybe 2008 is the ideal time for the birth of m4/3rds with the technology now available. Plus with Panasonic onboard, I am sure their expertise will be paramount for the evolution of non-OVF solutions.

People are already switching from point-and-shoots to dSLRs. P&S sales are not projecting well.

And what is the reason consumers are switching? Because they have no other option to get better IQ than to step-up to DSLR which is where m4/3rds comes into play. Consumers can still have compact and light without sacrificing DSLR quality.

It is something that should be congratulated and supported by consumers interested in the evolution of photographic technology, especially those loyal to other brands. Otherwise, what you are supporting is the continuation of the megapixel game of squeezing more into the same size sensor. If m4/3rds does fail, then you have no excuse if the status quo remains and you didn’t support this new gateway of opportunity, because Canon and Nikon will most likely continue to churn out similar compacts (the new flagship Compact Nikon is an example of this continuing trend). They will not need to create something different and innovative while they are soaking up the profits and there is no alternative on the market. It will be interesting to see if Canon’s G10 will come with a DSLR size sensor or will continue the trend... 16 megapixels anyone?

 

[tony-in-japan]

Non-Olympus users interested?

I know loads of people who would be potential buyers of a really compact camera like this...

Well, I was interested in how many non-Olympus users would support this new system, so I started a thread on Dpreview. It seems this new system is generally receiving positive interest with many keeping a curious eye on developments:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1018&thread=28850263

 

[Abstract]

Not really, but I think it's a small market. Enthusiasts who understand that the 1/1.6" sensor in a point and shoot cannot compare to a 4/3 or APS-C sensor are going to be interested in this kind of camera for its portability, assuming it's small enough.

If it's only slightly bigger (or perhaps even smaller) than a DP1, I think a lot of pros and casual users would buy one. A lot of people seem interested, although whether interest = sales is another matter. I think an m4/3 camera would sell really well, but a lot of its success will depend on whether it's as "fast" to use as a DSLR. It can't have shutter lag like a p&s. Otherwise, I'd rather stick to my Fuji F31.

The Olympus E-420 really is not much smaller than APS-C cameras.

The E-420 is 5.1 x 3.6 x 2.1 inches.
The 450D is 5.1 x 3.9 x 2.4 inches.

sure it's smaller and lighter, but not significantly so. It's the same class of camera.

Depends on how you measure the camera. If you go and hold them, or try to put them into a jacket pocket, there's a pretty big real-world difference in feel. I did this using the Nikon D40x and E-420, the D40x being smaller than the 450D (if I remember correctly). The E420, with no real hand-grip and small stature, is 8 mm shorter and 8 mm thinner. In practicality, that's a huge difference, even if it doesn't seem like a lot. Attach the Olympus 25 mm pancake lens, and the difference is even greater.

Even as a Nikon user, I don't think I'd buy a D40x + Sigma 30 mm lens (or any small Nikon lens you can think of.....I can't think of one) if I wanted a small, practical DSLR setup. I'd get the setup that Tony-in-Japan has.

To give you another example, I went from a small Canon IXUS of some sort (forget the model.....IXUS 40 or something), and upgraded to a Fuji F31fd after the announcement of the F40. I think my old Canon was 0.2" (5 mm) thinner than my F31fd. The difference sounded miniscule, and I hate picky people. Anyway, turns out I was VERY wrong about the 0.2". Great camera, but not a great size. I could have purchased the F40, which was as thin as my IXUS, but I was being a photography snob at the time and wanted manual controls.

I also don't see how this really helps normal 4/3 lens sales to achieve good volumes, since anyone going m4/3 is more likely to buy m4/3 lenses and not muck with an adapter.

The person upgrading from m4/3 to a larger body has to buy new lenses no matter what, and that's a brand switch point. That's not a strategic advantage.

That's true. I don't see how Olympus can convince m4/3 users to use an adapter, although an m4/3 user who likes having only 1 camera may buy small, compact m4/3 lenses for general street photography, but buy 4/3rd lenses when larger telephoto range is required. After all, an m4/3rd camera with a "large" m4/3rd lens defeats its reason for existing. The point of the m4/3rd is to remain compact, and if you're going to get a 300 mm equiv. lens anyway, it may as well be a 4/3rds version, seeing as how an m4/3rds version of a 300 zoom lens (or prime) + the m4/3 camera isn't going to be pocketable regardless of hard you try to jam it into a pocket.
But I agree with you. I really don't know how Oly

 

[Westside guy]

... But I agree with you. I really don't know how Oly

Abstract, you're a master of suspense!!! The anticipation is killing me!!!

 

[tony-in-japan]

An international gathering of Olympus users...

Abstract, you're a master of suspense!!! The anticipation is killing me!!!

He is not called ‘Abstract’ for nothing you know!

Well, I heard on the grapevine that there will be an international gathering of Olympus users with a special surprise for those particularly interested in the m4/3rds system. Some have mentioned it might be a prototype of the m4/3rds camera they could have a play with! Could be here sooner than a newly designed Macbook Pro...

Three wishes would make my year:

iPhone 3G (already came true! (after a 1 year wait!) )
A newly-designed Macbook Pro to replace my PBG4 (still tapping my feet...)
A new m4/3rds camera with a selection of lovely sleek primes...

 

[srf4real]

I'll take two µ4/3 weather sealed bodies, a µ12-100mm f/2.0 and a micro 100-400mm f/4 weather sealed lens, specifically designed to match image circle to digital sensor area... with Olympus quality optics for an equivalent reach of 24-800mm in full frame terms, all at a weight and size that makes that brick of a camera and bazooka of a lens the other 'pro' is lugging around be the "this is what cameras used to look like before Olympus and Panasonic innovated new technology again" example... oh yeah don't forget your wheelbarrow Canon dude!

Olympus already has a lens that is less than 5 inches long reaching 600mm equivalent with outstanding IQ for it's low price, but it's not too fast. (70-300mm f/4-5.6) I will keep my eye on this tid bit.

My biggest concern is with the EVF... time delay is not good for action photography. Probably a half second delay, at least between what you see and what you get.

 

[Everythingisnt]

Ha. Just finished reading this on digg this morning. Looks pretty neat, I hope it brings more into the digital rangefinder field– the selection is pretty lacking and pretty expensive right now.

What he said.

 

[tony-in-japan]

More goodies...

A generous member from Dpreview kindly translated a recent interview from Japanese to English with Mr Ogawa Haruo (who is head of Olympus Imaging’s SLR division and was originally a technician and spent 20 years occupied in research).

It is quite interesting especially if you want to know more about the upcoming micro 4/3rds system. Probably the next best news after the original press release/Japanese presentation.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&thread=28933263

Regards,
Tony

 

[Col127]

sounds phenomenal can't wait to see what comes out from this!

Phil Askey, Editor of the popular photography website Dpreview.com, wrote the following:

“This is without doubt the most exciting digital photography announcement this year.”

With Canon and Nikon (and Sony) battling it out on the professional FF front with their heavy and large bodies/lenses, there will soon be a great option for those more interested in compact, portable and light photography while upholding DSLR image quality.

There are some of us who are tired of the compact P&S megapixel game which is increasingly offering consumers more MPs in the same small sensor size -- meaning decreasing image quality on photos. What many consumers want is good IQ in a compact form. The Sigma DP1 was close. The E-420 with pancake was close too. The upcoming Lumix LX3 looks interesting, but still has a similar sensor size to compacts.

The welcome news of a new, upcoming system that gets rid of the mirror-reflex design of traditional DSLRs and instead will use an Electronic Viewfinder with Interchangable Lenses capability will be released by a joint-venture between Olympus (great optical company) and Panasonic (electronics giant) called micro-Four-Thirds.

This is great news for compact and prosumer lovers. A camera with a sensor area four times more than on a P&S camera, that will be compact and light with the DSLR’s capability to use interchangeable high-quality zoom or prime lenses is what the excitement is all about (and Olympus makes some of the best lenses in the industry). Check out the news/interest on the forums on Dpreview.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501microfourthirds.asp

I am definitely excited. If I can get image quality anywhere near I can get on my current E-420 with Pancake, then I will be a happy man. For all those doubting the IQ you can get from Olympus 4/3rds sensors, please check out my Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26154011@N07/

 

[tony-in-japan]

The teasing begins....

Is this a fake or real Panasonic micro 4/3rds body???

Up to you to decide!

Personally, even though they are CGI visuals, there is something about them that is ‘pro’ looking -- with the design curves, type layout/style and errr... okay, I am just having an intuitive guess. Or maybe I’m being naive!

I guess, others from Mac Rumors will be better at judging the authenticity of ‘mock up visuals’ than me

Anybody else on their opinion?

 

[srf4real]

Olympus is way too careful to allow that image to leak, I'm sure it's a fake... it does resemble my Panasonic L1, though, only thinner and tinier. Definitely something to look forward to! That same website has 'leaked' info about a tweener Oly body with really appealing specs... again I don't put much weight in their source... kind of like the National Enquirer here in the U. S. - doing anything to make headlines whether it is fact or fiction.

When they 'leaked' images of the E-3 a few months before its release, their mock-ups were way off from the actual camera.

 

[jv17]

sounds good to me though..

 

[tony-in-japan]

Okay, I have found out more...

Those CGI visuals of a Panasonic micro 4/3rds body were created from an enthusiastic Japanese guy just having fun. Pretty good though in my opinion. If you look on the back, the jog-dial looks very, very similar to the dial of the Canon G9!

Here are some more of his mocks...

Someone should give him a job! I like his attachable EVF! Now, if it could only rotate on an axis, or even be detachable and wireless!! That would open up possibilities of shooting (and self-portraits!)