MP 6,1 MP 6,1: External NVMe / Inject power into USB-C

[arw]

Hello! I'd like to use an external NVMe SSD as Photoshop scratch volume with my 2013 MP.
Is there an inexpensive way to make use of the Thunderbolt 2 ports (20 Gbit/s) instead of the significantly slower USB 3.0 ports (5 Gbit/s)?
I already own Apple's bi-directional USB-C to Thunderbolt 2 adapter and cables.

For reference, in an eGPU enclosure connected via Thunderbolt 2 > USB-C adapter, I get 1300 MB/s.
But I'd like to use a small USB-C NVMe enclosure. The problem is, the Thunderbolt 2 > USB-C route is data only without power.
Is there a way to externally power that (passive) USB-C enclosure?
- Either by a simple adapter that passes through the USB-C data pins but has an external USB power input to power the final device?
- Or is it enough to solder two wires to GND and VBUS of the enclosure and power it externally?

Thanks for any input!

(It's this 10 Gbit/s enclosure btw, which would double the transfer speeds compared to USB 3.0:
https://www.amazon.com/ORICO-NVMe-Enclosure-Gbps-Support/dp/B08G14NBCS)

 

[chabig]

In the USB-C world, things don't always work just because the plugs fit. You must understand that USB-C is the name of the physical port and connector. It is not a data transfer protocol. Even if you can plug two devices together, both must still use the same protocol (i.e., must speak the same language).

Apple's USB-C to Thunderbolt 2 adapter is for connecting two Thunderbolt devices that use different physical ports. It won't work for your scenario because the Orico enclosure you suggested is not a Thunderbolt device.

About the Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter - Apple Support

Connect a Mac that has a Thunderbolt 3 port to a device that uses a Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt 2 cable.

support.apple.com

You might try this other Orico adapter, which does support Thunderbolt 3. Connected in serial to your Apple adapter, I think it might work up to 20Gbps, but can't promise.

ORICO M.2 Enclosure for NVMe SSD, USB4.0 40Gbps Type-C to M Key B+M Key 2280 Aluminum External SSD Case Compatible with Thunderbolt 3/4 USB3.2/3.1/3.0/ Type-C-M2V01

ORICO M.2 Enclosure for NVMe SSD, USB4.0 40Gbps Type-C to M Key B+M Key 2280 Aluminum External SSD Case Compatible with Thunderbolt 3/4 USB3.2/3.1/3.0/ Type-C-M2V01

www.amazon.com

 

[arw]

Oops, thanks for pointing out my oversight. While I am aware of the technical differences in the USB-C connector world (most of the times at least 😅), I totally overlocked that in my setup, I need an actual Thunderbolt controller at the end.
I originally did take a look at the Thunderbolt enclosure you suggested. And while it fulfills the Thunderbolt requirement, I discarded it due to the lack of an external power supply - and its price.
Well, I will keep my eyes on the used market for Thunderbolt 3 enclosures or docks with external power supply.
As I have the eGPU enclosure to spare, I will take a look at its power consumption and use that in the meantime.
Thanks for sorting out my matter so quickly!

 

[TzunamiOSX]

The adapter does not support power to device. You will need a Thunderbolt Dock or a Thunderbolt device with his own power supply like the sabrent dual enclosure.

https://sabrent.com/products/ec-t3dn

 

[chabig]

I need an actual Thunderbolt controller at the end.

Exactly right. I wish I had been that clear!

I saw the price of the other adapter too. $100 vs $20 is a big difference. You said you want to speed up your Photoshop scratch volume. You'd get more bang for the buck by upgrading your entire computer. Even a used or refurbished M1 Mac is probably going to be much faster than what you've got.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Exactly right. I wish I had been that clear!

I saw the price of the other adapter too. $100 vs $20 is a big difference. You said you want to speed up your Photoshop scratch volume. You'd get more bang for the buck by upgrading your entire computer. Even a used or refurbished M1 Mac is probably going to be much faster than what you've got.

I have upgraded form MacPro 5,1 to a M1 Mac Mini and the speed up was not really noticeable at my work scenarios. I have upgraded again to Mac Studio M1 Ultra get a much better feeling.

Question: Why not using the internal SSD as scratch? With enough RAM the internal SSD is doing nothing. So nearly the full power can be used for PS.

 

[arw]

Thanks to both of you for your input.
Let me just say that I am mainly talking about hobby stuff which I can optimize better (reduce layers, decrease scaling values) and which doesn't justify a bigger internal SSD or more RAM. Let alone a Mac Studio.
The other SSD I have laying around from another project. As well as the eGPU enclosure.

You'd get more bang for the buck by upgrading your entire computer. Even a used or refurbished M1 Mac is probably going to be much faster than what you've got.

Compute speed is not the issue. Even with 32 GB of RAM, some large scaling operations occasionally fill my main SSD which I would have liked to divert to the larger and empty spare SSD.
And a Mac mini is still a couple of hundreds spent with an uncertain benefit or improvement for my use case.

You will need a Thunderbolt Dock or a Thunderbolt device with his own power supply like the sabrent dual enclosure.

While its retail price is more than I am willing to spend, it is good to know such a product does indeed exist.

Question: Why not using the internal SSD as scratch? With enough RAM the internal SSD is doing nothing. So nearly the full power can be used for PS.

Apparently for my extravagant workflow 32 GB is not enough as I had the internal SSD fill completely from time to time (120 GB free).
And I do not want to put the spare SSD in my Mac Pro as boot volume (with a Sintech adapter) because that's probably just calling for trouble (Kingston NV2 PCIe 4.0).

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Thanks to both of you for your input.
Let me just say that I am mainly talking about hobby stuff which I can optimize better (reduce layers, decrease scaling values) and which doesn't justify a bigger internal SSD or more RAM. Let alone a Mac Studio.
The other SSD I have laying around from another project. As well as the eGPU enclosure.


Compute speed is not the issue. Even with 32 GB of RAM, some large scaling operations occasionally fill my main SSD which I would have liked to divert to the larger and empty spare SSD.
And a Mac mini is still a couple of hundreds spent with an uncertain benefit or improvement for my use case.


While its retail price is more than I am willing to spend, it is good to know such a product does indeed exist.

Apparently for my extravagant workflow 32 GB is not enough as I had the internal SSD fill completely from time to time (120 GB free).
And I do not want to put the spare SSD in my Mac Pro as boot volume (with a Sintech adapter) because that's probably just calling for trouble (Kingston NV2 PCIe 4.0).

My Macs are also "hobby only". I bought a dock on the used market for 55 €. So you can get 10 Gbit/s (around 700 MB/s) with USB or 20 GBit/s (1500 MB/s) with a TB-Case.

 

[Karlsruhe]

I bought a dock on the used market for 55 €.

Could you tell us the product name of the dock?

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Could you tell us the product name of the dock?

Belkin Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro.

@Karlsruhe
Belkin und Elgato TB3 Docks sind oft für ca. 60 € bei Kleinanzeigen.de zu haben.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

And I do not want to put the spare SSD in my Mac Pro as boot volume (with a Sintech adapter) because that's probably just calling for trouble (Kingston NV2 PCIe 4.0).

I have a Kingston Fury Renegade 2 TB PCIe 4.0 with the short Sintech adapter inside my MacPro 6,1 and it is working very well.

 

[arw]

I have a Kingston Fury Renegade 2 TB PCIe 4.0 with the short Sintech adapter inside my MacPro 6,1 and it is working very well.

Thanks for the feedback but I have never read success stories with the NV2. It was pretty cheap anyway and not intended as boot volume for my main working machine.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/nvme-m2-speed-changing-between-800-1700-mb-s-mac-pro-5-1-windows-11-please-help.2424430/post-33078062

 

[steve123]

I've been trying to figure out a solution to this problem for a while now and have not identified the mythical "USB-C Power Injector". There appear to be some "experimental" devices out there but I haven't had a chance to try one out. There are quite a few cheap TB enclosures now using the ASMedia ASM2464PD controller. A guy I know said he purchased this enclosure for $31:

There might be an issue with the ASM2464PD since it is a TB4 controller. I recall the TB4 spec dropped backward compatibility with TB2 and so I am uncertain if a TB4 enclosure will work with the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter.

A while ago I tried an OWC dock with my INDMEM TB3 enclosure (w. JHL7440 controller) but I could not get the TB2 connection to enumerate at 20 Gbps. I recall I could achieve 10 Gbps and it seemed to only be using one PCIe lane.

So, I am stuck using a USB C to USB A adapter than only allows 5 Gbps.

I long to be able to achieve 20 Gbps. If you figure out a way to it to work please let us know.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

I've been trying to figure out a solution to this problem for a while now and have not identified the mythical "USB-C Power Injector". There appear to be some "experimental" devices out there but I haven't had a chance to try one out. There are quite a few cheap TB enclosures now using the ASMedia ASM2464PD controller. A guy I know said he purchased this enclosure for $31:

There might be an issue with the ASM2464PD since it is a TB4 controller. I recall the TB4 spec dropped backward compatibility with TB2 and so I am uncertain if a TB4 enclosure will work with the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter.

A while ago I tried an OWC dock with my INDMEM TB3 enclosure (w. JHL7440 controller) but I could not get the TB2 connection to enumerate at 20 Gbps. I recall I could achieve 10 Gbps and it seemed to only be using one PCIe lane.

So, I am stuck using a USB C to USB A adapter than only allows 5 Gbps.

I long to be able to achieve 20 Gbps. If you figure out a way to it to work please let us know.

Where did you connect your TB3 enclosure to the OWC Dock? Which OWC Dock was it?

I get around 1400 MB/s over my TB3 dock connected through the TB2 of my 6,1.

 

[arw]

(...) so I am uncertain if a TB4 enclosure will work with the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter.

As I have no TB4 devices, I cannot test anything in this regard.
The probable vendor of said enclosure (link) also offers a TB3 one (link) which should be priced even lower.
But at least for those enclosures it doesn't even matter as they have no external power supply.

And I still have no idea if it's enough to pipe 5V from a USB port or external PSU into the TB3 cable or if it also requires a negotiation on the CC pins.
But I honestly did not actively pursue it further as for my use case I found 5 Gbps USB 3.0 to be sufficient.

I long to be able to achieve 20 Gbps. If you figure out a way to it to work please let us know.

Well there are two proven ones:
- While it is possible to connect a TB3 enclosure via the Belkin Thunderbolt 3 Dock Pro, I quickly dismissed it as its idle power consumption was just insane and got pretty hot without anything connected to it.
- Actually, it was more effecient to plug the SSD into an M.2 NVMe to PCIe adapter and operate it in an eGPU enclosure (Sonnet TB3 eGFX Breakaway Box 550W).

 

[steve123]

Where did you connect your TB3 enclosure to the OWC Dock? Which OWC Dock was it?

I get around 1400 MB/s over my TB3 dock connected through the TB2 of my 6,1.

Sorry, not a dock, it was the "OWC Thunderbolt Hub" I used. The SSD was connected to a downstream port. I recall I tested with the MP connected to the upstream or a downstream port. There were issues getting the MP to recognize and enumerate the PCIe tunnel properly. I had problems getting consistent connection with I disconnected and reconnected without a reboot. I think I recall I checked the OWC support and they said it was only possible to get 10 Gbps at the time. I see now their website that it says it will connect at 20 Gbps. I wonder if somewhere along the way this issue was fixed?

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Sorry, not a dock, it was the "OWC Thunderbolt Hub" I used. The SSD was connected to a downstream port. I recall I tested with the MP connected to the upstream or a downstream port. There were issues getting the MP to recognize and enumerate the PCIe tunnel properly. I had problems getting consistent connection with I disconnected and reconnected without a reboot. I think I recall I checked the OWC support and they said it was only possible to get 10 Gbps at the time. I see now their website that it says it will connect at 20 Gbps. I wonder if somewhere along the way this issue was fixed?

Thunderbolt hub? This is a TB4 hub, right? If you don’t know, how many TB Ports are on the hub?
I have read, that TB4 does not support TB2. You need a TB3 Dock.

 

[rlsx]

Hello! I'd like to use an external NVMe SSD as Photoshop scratch volume with my 2013 MP.
Is there an inexpensive way to make use of the Thunderbolt 2 ports (20 Gbit/s) instead of the significantly slower USB 3.0 ports (5 Gbit/s)?

See the following post, in a similar thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thunderbolt-2-ssd.2409809/?post=33479939#post-33479939
There is a no-name Thunderbolt 2 NVME enclosure.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

And only 8XX MB/s of the possible 1400 MB/s of TB2

See the following post, in a similar thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thunderbolt-2-ssd.2409809/?post=33479939#post-33479939
There is a no-name Thunderbolt 2 NVME enclosure.

And only 8XX MB/s of the possible 1400 MB/s of TB2

 

[FilthyMcNasty]

I've achieved better than/equal to internal NVME speeds using a WD Black D50 dock which came supplied with an internal NVME, using Apple's Thunderbolt 2>3 adaptor.

Can't run Blackmagic disk speed atm as it's full - but approx 2000MB/s R/W IIRC. Very pleased with it and came with a 5 year warranty.

It's not dirt cheap but keep an eye on the camels the price dips - I paid under £200 in 2022 which seems decent as it's a nice dock with a bunch of useful ports (including uprating the MP6,1's own USB ports!) and 5 year WD warranty.. it's a product that seem to have been overlooked by desktop users as it was designed for a niche laptop gamer market :

WD_Black 2TB D50 Game Dock NVMe SSD, RGB with Thunderbolt 3 Connectivity, Up to 3,000 MB/s - WDBA3U0020BBK-NESN

WD_Black 2TB D50 Game Dock NVMe SSD, RGB with Thunderbolt 3 Connectivity, Up to 3,000 MB/s - WDBA3U0020BBK-NESN

www.amazon.co.uk

If you find a used unit you can install your own NVME stick - guides on Youtube

 

[TzunamiOSX]

I've achieved better than/equal to internal NVME speeds using a WD Black D50 dock which came supplied with an internal NVME, using Apple's Thunderbolt 2>3 adaptor.

Can't run Blackmagic disk speed atm as it's full - but approx 2000MB/s R/W IIRC. Very pleased with it and came with a 5 year warranty.

It's not dirt cheap but keep an eye on the camels the price dips - I paid under £200 in 2022 which seems decent as it's a nice dock with a bunch of useful ports (including uprating the MP6,1's own USB ports!) and 5 year WD warranty.. it's a product that seem to have been overlooked by desktop users as it was designed for a niche laptop gamer market :

WD_Black 2TB D50 Game Dock NVMe SSD, RGB with Thunderbolt 3 Connectivity, Up to 3,000 MB/s - WDBA3U0020BBK-NESN

WD_Black 2TB D50 Game Dock NVMe SSD, RGB with Thunderbolt 3 Connectivity, Up to 3,000 MB/s - WDBA3U0020BBK-NESN

www.amazon.co.uk

If you find a used unit you can install your own NVME stick - guides on Youtube

Ahm, 2000 MB/s ist more than 500 MB/s over the maximum you can get with Thunderbolt 2.

Edit: Oh you mean the speed when connected to TB3.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Perhaps is the Acasis 8-in-1 a better solution and less expensive solution. But I’m not sure that it works on TB2.

Acasis 8-in-1 40Gbps M.2 NVMe Thunderbolt 3/4 SSD Enclosure & Dock

ACASIS 8-in-1 Thunderbolt 3/4 SSD Enclosure & Dock 1 x Thunderbolt 4 (40Gb/s,8K@60Hz)2 x HDMI 2.0(4K@60Hz)1 x USB-C (10Gb/s)2 x USB-A (10Gb/s)1 x PD (100W)1 x M.2 (NVMe SSD) Need multitasking? This product's multi-screen output is perfect for you! The 8-in-1 Thunderbolt SSD Enclosure & Dock...

www.acasis.com

 

[FilthyMcNasty]

Ahm, 2000 MB/s ist more than 500 MB/s over the maximum you can get with Thunderbolt 2.

Edit: Oh you mean the speed when connected to TB3.

I mean connected to a Thunderbolt 2 port with a TB2/3 adaptor

Thunderbolt 2 can be a bottleneck but it supports 20 Gbit/s or 2500 MB/s

The Blackmagic utility produced ~2000 MB/s R/W for the D50 internal NVME. I've got the screenshot somewhere maybe I can dig it out or run that again

MP6,1 compatible NVME Thunderbolt enclosures required to achieve these speeds ARE expensive hence my recommendation as the D50 offers other benefits besides that : it additionally provides *10Gb* USB 3 and USB-C ports, vs the native MP6,1 ports 5 Gb, among the various other in/outs

It gave my machine a new lease of life

PS : Don't forgot the all important RGB lighting!

 

[tsialex]

I mean connected to a Thunderbolt 2 port with a TB2/3 adaptor

Thunderbolt 2 can be a bottleneck but it supports 20 Gbit/s or 2500 MB/s

TB2 = 20Gb/s = ~1450MB/s real life. Remember that a TB2 connection also reserves bandwidth for 4K video even if you do not connect video signal to it.

 

[FilthyMcNasty]

TB2 = 20Gb/s = ~1450MB/s real life. Remember that a TB2 connection also reserves bandwidth for 4K video even if you do not connect video signal to it.

Ok I can't explain it then - I didn't know that about 4K (and I trust you are correct) but I'm also confident on installation I saw higher speeds

Can a newly-formatted drive report inaccurate results?

I'll re-run my Blackmagic test