Multiple Soundtrack Issues With AppleTV

[dynaflash]

I've made over 30 free pinball games (VPM Visual Pinball) for the PC with plenty of option menus and I try to be patient with users that don't understand how to set things up, not tell them they're stupid or trying to do something that wasn't intended.

Are you honestly comparing a video pinball game to a video encoder ? Wow. No one said you were stupid. But frankly you come off imho as very ... well ungrateful and as well (at least in this case) speak of what you know not.

The alternate audio track names can break the automatic AC3 track detection in the atv. Since it was deemed that the support risks of doing that to users outweighed the advantage until a more foolproof method (read apple is not overly forthcoming with this information ) as well as the extra screen real estate it takes up and given that at the time it was not supported by any of the iPods unless the name was typed in exactly as per apples atv language list ... we decided not to include it in HB..

However, HB is not just an atv encoder. As of this post there are 2.03 million downloads of HB 0.9.3 over four platforms and three official gui's. So, in the overall scope of HB's feature set it is a mathematical certainty that ATV users are a small minority, further those that would use alternate audio track names (say to add a third track for commentaries, etc.) would be an even smaller subset ... that coupled with the uncertainty of what was then a totally new feature in atv 2.3 we felt dicated prudency so, it was determined the risk outweighed the advantage.

You say "supposedly supports the atv" ? afaik, HB supports the atv's feature set more than any other encoder out there, paid or not (including apples own quicktime pro). Thanks to eddyg (who spent a HUGE amount of time reverse engineering the atv's intro movie to figure out how apple was not only stuffing an AC3 track into an mp4 but also how the atoms worked out so the atv could enable it if hooked up to a surround capable source) I think HB is *still* the only non apple encoder that does it right. Mind you, this is something only found on the apple tv as apple doesn't even support the feauture on any of their other products, including macs.

As far as deinterlace vs. decomb, decomb is not the default primarily because the filter's author wants to make sure its completely stable. Until that dev decides it's ready, it will not be the default (btw, the same dev that developed variable framerate encoding). yes, decomb often produces better looking output than deinterlace depending on your source since (as a programmer and obvious video wizard you already know) many dvd's have a pretty decent range of framerates all during the same title, as well as a combination of interlaced and progressive frames (sometimes with telecining thrown in just for good measure). Running a standard deinterlacer will deinterlace every frame, including the progressive ones which as you know reduces quality.

Changing titles will change the audio track provided the new title has the same named audio track available. But as you also should know, many if not most dvd's have different tracks available depending on the title, maybe the same language but might be 2.0 4.0 etc. etc.

I could go on and on but will refrain. Maybe a better encoder (paid or not) hasn't come along because it's not as easy nor quick to implement as you might suggest. Just a thought. In the end, realize that everyone that works on HandBrake does it for free, on their free time and of their own volition. Most in the evenings after working their day jobs and take time away from other things they could be doing (families, friends, etc.). So, dev's work on the things that interest them. There is frankly little interest in doing so for something they are not interested in. There is no monetary compensation nor incentive to spend many hours implementing something because someone whines about needing it. As well, sometimes frankly the right developer hasn't come along with the skill set to implement a feature. Why do you think it took so long for HB to be able to read non-dvd sources ? The dev's and testers at HB are probably its most prolific users and we all wanted to be able to use it on non dvd sources for a long time. Finally we were blessed by the contribution of time and talent from one of the best dev's I have ever come across who felt he wanted to help and did so (those of you that follow hb development know who I am talking about).

In the end, its just a pissing contest I spose, but frankly its the attitude portrayed in the posts above that give open source developers pause at wanting to even contribute to a project. Which imho is bad for everyone that would like to be able to use free, quality software.

For your perusal:

http://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/IsIsnt

http://www.cod3r.com/2007/06/open-source-attitudes/

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Are you honestly comparing a video pinball game to a video encoder ? Wow. No one said you were stupid. But frankly you come off imho as very ... well ungrateful and as well (at least in this case) speak of what you know not.

No, I'm not "comparing" making games to making a video encoder. To be honest, whatever time you spent working on Handbrake simply PALES in comparison to SEVEN YEARS of making commercial quality pinball recreations (in addition to working a full time job; I spent many 12-16 hour days during the week plus weekends working), all of which I give away for FREE (any of which entails tons of photoshop work, 3d modeling and programming). So get off your high horse about Handbrake being free and people like 'me' discouraging people like 'you.' I've been there and done that and frankly it's not me that's the problem. There is no nice way to point out problems or deficiencies in software and I'm not a diplomat. I don't caress egos; I get to the point. The fact that you are doing it for free is great, but you are hardly alone there. I've not only provided features and fixed bugs users have reported to me, but I've even recreated entire tables at request. Yes, I've felt massive urges to go on ego trips and I'm sure more than a few have called me some serious names over the years and I've called them "ingrates" also, but that's MY deficiency. The mere fact you seem to imply that making video games is EASIER than working on a video encoder just shows how far your ego goes. Yes, games and encoders are two separate things, but supporting a user base is no different.

The alternate audio track names can break the automatic AC3 track detection in the atv. Since it was deemed that the support risks of doing that to users outweighed the advantage until a more foolproof method (read apple is not overly forthcoming with this information ) as well as the extra screen real estate it takes up and given that at the time it was not supported by any of the iPods unless the name was typed in exactly as per apples atv language list ... we decided not to include it in HB..

This is where I would say an "option" to use it even if requiring a warning to the user is better than no functionality at all. Even offering a query option similar to the Windows version is better than nothing. If screen real estate is an issue, pop up a window instead. Honestly, excuses don't interest me. Like one of my favorite movie characters says, No problems, only solutions.

However, HB is not just an atv encoder. As of this post there are 2.03 million downloads of HB 0.9.3 over four platforms and three official gui's. So, in the overall scope of HB's feature set it is a mathematical certainty that ATV users are a small minority, further those that would use alternate audio track names (say to add a third track for commentaries, etc.) would be an even smaller subset ... that coupled with the uncertainty of what was

Uh huh. I'm not sure if you are patting yourself on the back there or trying to justify a missing feature.

then a totally new feature in atv 2.3 we felt dicated prudency so, it was determined the risk outweighed the advantage.

Odd how it seems to work so well in the Windows version. It hasn't failed yet. Even Muxo has worked 100% so far for me (for patching OS X generated files that are missing the needed audio tags).

But more importantly, this idea that Handbrake supports AppleTV better than any other product YET doesn't integrate the ability to support multiple soundtracks (other than 5.1 + single stereo) only screams one thing; it lacks an important feature. Watching you try to justify your decisions to leave a feature out doesn't interest me because it doesn't do what I need it to do in order to fully utilize my AppleTV encodes. Sure, I can blame it on Apple for not letting me select another "stereo" track despite the similar names (you CAN do it in iTunes so clearly it SHOULD be possible), but who says I haven't sent feedback to Apple as well? Like I said, I'm only interested in solutions. Excuses don't help fix problems. Solutions help fix problems.

As far as deinterlace vs. decomb, decomb is not the default primarily because the filter's author wants to make sure its completely stable. Until that dev decides it's ready, it will not be the default (btw, the same dev that developed variable framerate encoding). yes, decomb often produces better looking output than deinterlace depending on your source since (as a

The difference in quality is not subtle. I'd say it's the difference between amateur and professional. Even iTunes videos often have shimmery issues from deinterlacing and often lack quality. Here you can have both. Until I tried this option, I didn't think it was worth encoding my entire DVD library because the DVDs looked so much better on a good progressive player. I haven't seen a single case yet other than pure progressive where it didn't improve the output. Stable? I haven't seen anything thus far in dozens of encodes to suggest otherwise. I'm in the middle of reencoding all my music videos and concerts because the difference is worth the effort. However, if it had been the default or if preview had shown it did something, I probably would have saved myself 2-3 days of re-encoding. I'm only glad I haven't encoded more than I have or it would truly be a miserable situation.

You want my thanks? You have it. I always appreciate freeware. In fact, it's why I like to give away software, music, etc. for free as well. I'm all for Linux becoming the dominant OS in the future because I don't like corporate greed. BUT as much as I like The Gimp, for example, it does not and cannot replace Photoshop for my needs. Thus when I say I'd be willing to pay for an encoder that can do what Handbrake can do plus the deficiencies I've been talking about, that's what I mean. If it does what I need it to do, then it's worth it. Me understanding limitations because something is free and said authors aren't under obligation to do anything simply doesn't solve any problems. Would a PayPal donation bring about useful changes? In other words, what does it take to see issues addressed with open source software?

I think incentive and lack of centralized control is why after a dozen plus years since first trying Linux, it STILL can't compete with Windows and Mac OS X for market share or even get me to use it full time. There isn't enough incentive or desire to make Linux unified. Everyone simply does what they feel like doing instead of what needs done to make it what it needs to be in order to properly compete. So while Open Source and Freeware is great, maybe sometimes there needs to be more incentive. After 7 years and 34+ commercial pinball recreations, I know I got tired of it.

 

[bucksaddle]

But more importantly, this idea that Handbrake supports AppleTV better than any other product YET doesn't integrate the ability to support multiple soundtracks (other than 5.1 + single stereo) only screams one thing; it lacks an important feature.

Well, I'm using Dynaflash's patch to enable me to name tracks for commentary's and it works a treat on the Apple TV. However, i will state this:
Quite clearly HandBrake does allow you to use multiple tracks on one encode, last time i checked there were 4 drop-downs on the Audio tab and this enables me to select the German Track, the French Track as well as my English one's and i can switch between them on the ATV. I wouldn't call that "lacking an important feature". I could also select an alternative English track as well if i wanted, but because the ATV cannot recognise this is HandBrake's problem, how?
I also believe that this is how the ATV is meant to work (one language per track - although it does use 2 for Stereo / Surround). Currently i have seen no proof or evidence from Apple that they are providing commentary tracks on their encodes, and until that day happens the ATV is perhaps not "supposed" to be accepting different soundtracks using the same language.
I give Kudos to the HB guy's for even bothering to figure out how to circumnavigate this "lacking feature" in the ATV without any documentation or knowledge base from Apple

This is where I would say an "option" to use it even if requiring a warning to the user is better than no functionality at all.

There is an option to use it. As mentioned above there is an unsupported patch available.
I think we should look back at the title of this thread: "Multiple Soundtrack issues with the Apple TV"

 

[Alrescha]

...frankly its the attitude portrayed in the posts above that give open source developers pause at wanting to even contribute to a project. Which imho is bad for everyone that would like to be able to use free, quality software.

This bears repeating.

Or, to use a very old saying, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".

A.

 

[dynaflash]

*sighs* after deleting a lengthy reply. I would part with this consideration:

Every dev I know of in an open source project is also a user of another open source project. So, which side of the fence you are on depends on which software you are using. So, we obviously experience it both ways. Not one OSS dev I know of would even considering demanding (and yes, imo you came off as demanding whether by intent or not) a feature from a dev in another project. Asking is one thing, but otherwise arguing and insulting to try to get your way will typically get you no where quick imho.

Some time back we (handbrake devs with atv's) used alot of vbv parameters in our encodes as it was the only way x264 would produce a file with great quality without spiking bitrate which choked the atv causing dropped frames.

However at the time, single pass vbv did not work correctly in x264 and we were big on using cq encoding which of course is single pass. While some hb devs are pretty close to the x264 project none are active developers in it. So, out of curiosity I went and asked Loren Merrit at x264 if he had any plans to fix single pass vbv in x264. Very politely as I was in their house and we used their library which benefits HB and all of its users. Anyway his response to my request:

" No. Not anytime soon as I have no need for it".

I politely thanked him for his time and moved on. Was he being flippant or " on a high horse " ? Not in the least. x264 has such a huge feature set and many uses that I could see they were working on other issues they deemed more important. Its on their time and I and all x264 users get to benefit. Who am I do demand anything of him?

Of course, as it happened a great developer familiar with x264 had in interest in single pass vbv and the time available and worked with them by submitting patches, getting approval for its integration to their codebase (read: without ***** up any of the rest of x264's features) and it was committed. Done deal.

Even dev's are ultimately users and most of us try to act accordingly.

Note: for the record, I implemented the very feature you want because like you I am interested in it. It was submitted as a patch and I posed my reasoning for adding it to the macgui. However, a majority of the other hb dev's decided it should not go into HB 0.9.3 for the reasons I illustrated earlier, so it didn't. Fair enough. Thats how OSS works (at least at the HB project). I play by the rules no different than anyone.

Yes, I will probably try to get it in again later. I am done with this subject. I truly am sorry you are so dissatisfied with HB and hopefully another oss project or paid software will come along that fits your needs better.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Quite clearly HandBrake does allow you to use multiple tracks on one encode, last time i checked there were 4 drop-downs on the Audio tab and this enables me to select the German Track, the French Track as well as my English one's and i can switch between them on the ATV. I wouldn't call that "lacking an important feature". I could also select an alternative English track as well if i wanted, but because the ATV cannot recognise this is HandBrake's problem, how?

I also believe that this is how the ATV is meant to work (one language per track - although it does use 2 for Stereo / Surround). Currently i have seen no proof or evidence from Apple that they are providing commentary tracks on their encodes, and until that day happens the ATV is perhaps not "supposed" to be accepting different soundtracks using the same language.
I give Kudos to the HB guy's for even bothering to figure out how to circumnavigate this "lacking feature" in the ATV without any documentation or knowledge base from Apple

I don't think Apple really wants you encoding for AppleTV period. They want you to BUY from the iTunes store or else AppleTV would support more common standards to begin with. AppleTV is NOT about encoding all your DVDs (shady legal grounds to begin with there) to play off your AppleTV but rather about renting and buying material from Apple to play on it. As useful as AppleTV is (and can be with some hacking), it's basically a storefront/player for the iTunes store. I mean notice how they put most of the main menu options at the top for the iTunes store while "My Music" is usually at the BOTTOM of the list. Notice how there is a search option for the iTunes store, but NO search option for your own music library (unless you buy an additional iPod Touch to control it). So yes, if we're going to talk about what Apple WANTS you to do, then no one should be using Handbrake at all.

This bears repeating.

Or, to use a very old saying, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".

Repeat it all you want. That doesn't solve any problems. I've already said I'd be willing to pay for an encoder that does everything I want it to do so why make money an issue? When I released free games to the pinball community, it never stopped them from complaining or asking for new features or pointing out areas that could be improved. If reporting problems is an 'insult' (or more like not petting egos from my perspective) then the open community isn't the answer. I'd rather pay and get professional acting programmers who can take a little criticism or suggestions or feature requests than get something for 'free' that comes with loads of baggage attached. It's nothing personal, after all.

In fact, when I posted this thread I didn't know one of the programmers would even be on here and given the replies, I'd have preferred he wasn't on here since I wasn't looking for arguments, but answers/solutions. I found quite a few thanks to some helpful people. And as I said, thanks to Dynaflash and the other programmers for their tireless efforts, but I'd appreciate those efforts even more if they didn't come with an attitude any time someone asks a question, complains about a problem or suggests a feature. Yes, we know it's not our program and we know we're getting it for free but for some of us free versus not-free isn't the issue. Like I said, I'd rather you guys started charging and took a professional attitude than wig out every time someone suggests something could be better/simpler/whatever.

Thanks again to those that helped me figure out what I was doing wrong across platforms, etc. Those replies were really helpful. The rest on here is pointless posturing.