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This too! What do you think about people in the camp of "We need Apple to revert to its roots" but for the sake of nostalgia? Because I find myself at odds especially during WWDC season when I get excited for Apple MAYBE just MAYBE showing a bigger indicator that any day now they're going to make a radical shift back to how they were before, whether it's in their UI design, their focus on quality and stability etc but then I stop and I think, wait, there I go again mourning and yearning for the past (The Apple of Steve Jobs) to somehow magically make a return... I hope I'm making sense 😅
Sorry if this has already been said and I missed it. I'm coming late to this convo.

I think part of the nostalgia people talk about isn’t actually nostalgia for skeuomorphism or the “old Apple vibe” so much as nostalgia for having a tyrant (more or less) who could just say “No.” Jobs obviously wasn’t prefect, and he definitely made mistakes, but he also had centralized authority and the willingness to correct course instead of doubling down. And, it had a tendency to get it right it really important ways. That alone is rare.

When Microsoft Stores started popping up near Apple Stores, I was an Apple employee. We’d joke about how different the philosophies were and compare it to the company as a whole. The Apple Store layout existed because Steve and Ron Johnson were deciding what was best for the customer (it's still a for profit, what's good for the customer is good for the company). The Microsoft Store felt more like each internal division got floor space based on its contribution to profit margins — Xbox gets X percent, Office gets Y percent, etc. I really wouldnt have been surprised to find tapped of quarterly square footage changes.

Apply that same method to software and it still tracks. A big reason quality has slipped is that no one inside Apple seems empowered to just say “No.” No one wants to disappoint a customer group or kill a feature for the sake of a cleaner, more cohesive experience. Instead they try to be everything to everyone.

I was a big Shake user back in the early 2000s. It killed me when they axed it, especially because it was so much better than competitors at the time. But the decision made sense (to Steve I guess, not to me), they were willing to disappoint a very dedicated group to focus on other priorities. I’m not convinced they’d do that today. Modern Apple would ship justify it not having to be rock solid, as long as it existed, so we'd get “Shake X” with a "modern" UI and half the depth, the way Final Cut Pro today barely resembles the rock-solid, reliably boring tool it used to be.

And to be fair, not all of this is self inflicted. Regulatory pressures matter. I’m not trying to start an “EU bad / DOJ bad” thread, but some required accommodations absolutely compromises the experience. Still, a lot of this comes from Apple deciding to compete on their competitors’ terms. They’ve started chasing specs instead of experience.

Back in the day, the whole “megahertz myth” argument boiled down to a simple question, "if your faster CPU feels slower, who cares about the number?" Apple didn’t try explaining pipeline depth, cache behavior, OS integration, or compiler optimizations to regular customers. They just said, “Which one works better?” Now the tone feels more like the PC world Apple used to mock, “Your specs are amazing, so if you’re unhappy, maybe you’re the problem?”
 
Interesting post @LowKeyed . Seems like it boils down to focus. Steve Jobs impersonated that idea. I agree sometimes it was frustrating but it was worth it. But Apple today is so huge. And maybe computers have matured to the point where there just aren’t as many areas to innovate anymore?
 
Sorry if this has already been said and I missed it. I'm coming late to this convo.

I think part of the nostalgia people talk about isn’t actually nostalgia for skeuomorphism or the “old Apple vibe” so much as nostalgia for having a tyrant (more or less) who could just say “No.” Jobs obviously wasn’t prefect, and he definitely made mistakes, but he also had centralized authority and the willingness to correct course instead of doubling down. And, it had a tendency to get it right it really important ways. That alone is rare.

When Microsoft Stores started popping up near Apple Stores, I was an Apple employee. We’d joke about how different the philosophies were and compare it to the company as a whole. The Apple Store layout existed because Steve and Ron Johnson were deciding what was best for the customer (it's still a for profit, what's good for the customer is good for the company). The Microsoft Store felt more like each internal division got floor space based on its contribution to profit margins — Xbox gets X percent, Office gets Y percent, etc. I really wouldnt have been surprised to find tapped of quarterly square footage changes.

Apply that same method to software and it still tracks. A big reason quality has slipped is that no one inside Apple seems empowered to just say “No.” No one wants to disappoint a customer group or kill a feature for the sake of a cleaner, more cohesive experience. Instead they try to be everything to everyone.

I was a big Shake user back in the early 2000s. It killed me when they axed it, especially because it was so much better than competitors at the time. But the decision made sense (to Steve I guess, not to me), they were willing to disappoint a very dedicated group to focus on other priorities. I’m not convinced they’d do that today. Modern Apple would ship justify it not having to be rock solid, as long as it existed, so we'd get “Shake X” with a "modern" UI and half the depth, the way Final Cut Pro today barely resembles the rock-solid, reliably boring tool it used to be.

And to be fair, not all of this is self inflicted. Regulatory pressures matter. I’m not trying to start an “EU bad / DOJ bad” thread, but some required accommodations absolutely compromises the experience. Still, a lot of this comes from Apple deciding to compete on their competitors’ terms. They’ve started chasing specs instead of experience.

Back in the day, the whole “megahertz myth” argument boiled down to a simple question, "if your faster CPU feels slower, who cares about the number?" Apple didn’t try explaining pipeline depth, cache behavior, OS integration, or compiler optimizations to regular customers. They just said, “Which one works better?” Now the tone feels more like the PC world Apple used to mock, “Your specs are amazing, so if you’re unhappy, maybe you’re the problem?”
What about the software programmers and maintainers who work for wages and are always on the lookout for their first opportunity to earn better pay somewhere else?
 
Great post. Only thing I didn’t get is why numbering the OS to the next year indicates a positive change. Could you elaborate on that?

Several factors .

1. The ‘future’ year really isn’t all that future. It lines up with Apple Fiscal Year which starts in October ( ends September is end of year. ). So lifetime first year is Q5 ‘25 (year) , Q1 ‘26 , Q2 ‘26 , Q3 ‘26. Three of those four are 26 so makes for more sense to label 26 than 25 . It is indicator of when it was most current OS and that is most of 2026. In January, if ask question why is this OS26 the answer is relatively obvious. ( it is the current OS to use in 2026. )

2. Pragmatically the operating system releases are only supported for about 3-4 years. Initial year ( full coverage ) , n+1 ( some bug fixes, security ) , n+2 ( security fixes) , and maybe n+3 ( relatively easy but egregious security fix ). The more out of sync your OS number now to current’s number the more likely if it going to fall off the support list. No need to track codename mapping to year. No need to have decoder ring to map OS to a specific year . Years mapping very cleanly into years is much cleaner.

The OS is empheral. Apple isn’t going to support it for a decade. Once the next version comes this one is on a countdown clock for support.

3. The OS lines are different but based on the same foundation and many of the shared new features . So Mail of macOS 3 , iOS 5 , and iPadOS 1 is a mishmash of numbers. If the numbers are all the same then easier to expect they were made to integrate better.

Not every Apple user has multiple products in the product line up , but enough do for this to be significant.
 
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Several factors .

1. The ‘future’ year really isn’t all that future. It lines up with Apple Fiscal Year which starts in October ( ends September is end of year. ). So lifetime first year is Q5 ‘25 (year) , Q1 ‘26 , Q2 ‘26 , Q3 ‘26. Three of those four are 26 so makes for more sense to label 26 than 25 . It is indicator of when it was most current OS and that is most of 2026. In January, if ask question why is this OS26 the answer is relatively obvious. ( it is the current OS to use in 2026. )

2. Pragmatically the operating system releases are only supported for about 3-4 years. Initial year ( full coverage ) , n+1 ( some bug fixes, security ) , n+2 ( security fixes) , and maybe n+3 ( relatively easy but egregious security fix ). The more out of sync your OS number now to current’s number the more likely if it going to fall off the support list. No need to track codename mapping to year. No need to have decoder ring to map OS to a specific year . Years mapping very cleanly into years is much cleaner.

The OS is empheral. Apple isn’t going to support it for a decade. Once the next version comes this one is on a countdown clock for support.

3. The OS lines are different but based on the same foundation and many of the shared new features . So Mail of macOS 3 , iOS 5 , and iPadOS 1 is a mishmash of numbers. If the numbers are all the same then easier to expect they were made to integrate better.

Not every Apple user has multiple products in the product line up , but enough do for this to be significant.
I’m not sure if you didn’t understand my question or if I don’t understand your answer. Yes using number 26 simplifies things, but why does simplifying the OS number hint that Apple’s software quality will improve? This outcome is what OP suggests under the header “The Version 26 Hint”.
 
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I think part of the nostalgia people talk about isn’t actually nostalgia for skeuomorphism or the “old Apple vibe” so much as nostalgia for having a tyrant (more or less) who could just say “No.” Jobs obviously wasn’t prefect, and he definitely made mistakes, but he also had centralized authority and the willingness to correct course instead of doubling down. And, it had a tendency to get it right it really important ways. That alone is rare.

Large screen iMac with Apple Silicon . ‘No’ . ( some occasional German hand waving, but official Apple has been pretty clear)

Affordable SE priced iPhone . ‘No’ .

Mac Pro with removable RAM and dGPU on generic, legacy PCI-e form factor . ‘No’

Bootcamp to Windows on Arm. ‘No’

Thicker luggable workstation laptop. ‘No’

Gamer AppleTV ( game console competitor ). ‘No’


Apply that same method to software and it still tracks. A big reason quality has slipped is that no one inside Apple seems empowered to just say “No.” No one wants to disappoint a customer group or kill a feature for the sake of a cleaner, more cohesive experience. Instead they try to be everything to everyone.

The Apple user base in 2005 is no where near Apple user base size in 2025. Even if narrow down to just Mac sub segment . More than several millions larger.

Apple isn’t border but the user base is broader also. Apple is still pretty far way from trying to loop in ‘everyone’ .

Apple has nuked 32 bits apps ( to make transition to Apple Silicon easier ) .

Apple has said ‘No’ to a variety of GPL 3 projects ( SAMBA )

Apple has a much larger services business ( subscription music , TV content via Apple TV. That stuff is more ‘everyone’ target more so because it isn’t Apple hardware required. And makes no business to solely tie it to Apple hardware)



I was a big Shake user back in the early 2000s. It killed me when they axed it, especially because it was so much better than competitors at the time. But the decision made sense (to Steve I guess, not to me), they were willing to disappoint a very dedicated group to focus on other priorities. I’m not convinced they’d do that today. Modern Apple would ship justify it not having to be rock solid, as long as it existed, so we'd get “Shake X” with a "modern" UI and half the depth, the way Final Cut Pro today barely resembles the rock-solid, reliably boring tool it used to be.

Probably not. Apple bought Shake even though its core was very not macOS oriented. In part didn’t have a choice because Mac ecosystem at the time time was small and relatively weak . Doubtful Apple would buy any software at this point that had zero ports to the Apple ecosystem at all ( e.g., buy a super hard core Android only app. Or some hyper high end X86-64 + Nvidia ,Linux only app. They wouldn’t have it to shut it down .

Apple isn’t a good fit with selling relatively high priced software. Very high prices implies ‘enterprise’ like support and that just isn’t Apple’s strong suit. Apple has folded some higher priced software software into lower prices alternatives they also has . ( collapsing 2-3 software products into one targeted at a lower price point is a ‘No’)

Apple has done some acqui-hire to get talent where have just thrown product/service away ( which is a ‘No’ )


Apple is probably likely to keep apps which ‘Sherlocked’ some vendor(s) . Kind of embarrassing to wipe out a vendor and then couple years later say “whoops, never mind, I don’t want to do this”. Apple’s Sherlock rate hasn’t gone up much, but 20+ years of pulling that tigger is going to rack up an ever larger body count over time even if just do one per year ( or even every other year).


Back in the day, the whole “megahertz myth” argument boiled down to a simple question, "if your faster CPU feels slower, who cares about the number?" Apple didn’t try explaining pipeline depth, cache behavior, OS integration, or compiler optimizations to regular customers. They just said, “Which one works better?” Now the tone feels more like the PC world Apple used to mock, “Your specs are amazing, so if you’re unhappy, maybe you’re the problem?”

In terms of specs I don’t think Apple is trying to assign the user as the problem. Much of the friction there is form versus function. ‘It needs to have a standard slot where I can put my card/DIMM into the socket’. ( which at its core is a ‘form’ ) versus this is really fast ( and doesn’t stick to legacy conventions ; just faster function with focus on efficient )
 
I’m not sure if you didn’t understand my question or if I don’t understand your answer. Yes using number 26 simplifies things, but why does simplifying the OS number hint that Apple’s software quality will improve? This outcome is what OP suggests under the header “The Version 26 Hint”.

Easier for customers to understand is a positive change for customers. It should be a positive change for Apple also since don’t have to take as much time explaining the decoder ring mapping to as many customers in store sales and tech support and in technical support over phones/chat. All that decoder ring explaintion time is time and effort to nowhere. If don’t change it is just as F’ed up the next year as it was the last. It just burns resources down the toilet every year.


Possibly Apple could spend more time feeding back info from support to better fixes. Maybe not( Apple Support is more oriented to making the customer happy/content than in actually solving root cause problems )
 
One other thing, written from the perspective of a hardware guy (albeit not in the computer field; instead telecom which is more software than you might like these days.)

My observation is that deep in the software thinking spot, at least for management, there's the idea that you can always change things in simple updates that are downloadable. So, more features get shoved in and less testing is done before release, just because it's possible. Not because it's a good idea, but because it's possible. Downloadable software is disposable and there are no inventory costs for ones and zeros. There's no lead time for actual delivery of tangible stuff. That changes the thinking.

Hardware guys generally HAVE to get things right from the start. Why? Field recalls are painful and expensive. They're especially painful for the executives and bean counters because it affects the actual bottom line in a clear way. Want to bring fear into the guy's faces? Use the words "forklift upgrade". Customers hate that. That hate often comes with financial penalties of some kind. Because of the transitive property of hardware, everybody in the chain gets to share that pain. So, you tend to focus more on getting it right. Or, on looking for a new job.

When upgrades were delivered through physical objects like CD's, other disks, and USB thumb drives, that was more like hardware. The cost associated with pulling that all back, scrapping the obsolete stock, and so on was painful and awful. So, there was almost inherently more of an emphasis to get it right. With millions of discs being made and sent out, you couldn't very well change much at the last minute. With downloads, you can.
Yes. Ever since the primary way to obtain software went online, all product quality has declined in general. Now, there are very few “showstopper” level bug. They are now “well get that issue fixed in the .1 drop.”

This same thing applies to games as well. I honestly don’t follow many games closely, however the game Mortal Kombat Legacy Kollection that was released October 31 this year contained many bugs that negatively affected gameplay and expectations that buyers held. They are releasing updates addressing the issues, but historically a product would never been released like that. I don’t own the game but have seen the negative reviews it has overwhelmingly received.

The excitement that one experienced picking up the new copy of OS X in the store has certainly been lost. Along with the live WWDC keynotes, too.

I have tested for Microsoft since Windows Memphis (Windows 98) and every 9x and NT build since. Now anyone can become an “Insider” in the Canary builds much like
anyone can be a developer with Apple now. I started testing for Apple during 10.7, and was of course a paid developer, and things were significantly different then.

As I watch reviews on iOS betas, the “bugs” that people complain about now are so frivolous in nature, it demonstrates the state of the current technology landscape. Some people complain about “a wallpaper bug,” etc. that doesn’t affect the functionality or feature at all. The same goes for people complaining about “lag” and “micro stuttering.” Of course if there are performance issues with a build overall it needs to be reported and addressed, however I think most people complaining are the ones that OP mentioned that want to be “cool.”

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
 
To put the nail in the coffin, since ios26 my iPhone 15 pro max now takes 3-6 minutes to xonnect to a public wifi hotspot. Before that q0-5 sec. I am buying an iPhone XS max to use imstead.

Quality, user experience, stabilit - Apple apparently doesn't know tje meaning of those words. But, oh my, we've glt to have liquid glass, whatever in the h that is
 
It’s not too difficult to share a saved album, click in > select all > share.
I guess either nobody thought of it or the use case is so small they never engineered it.

Music has gone the same as as Photos, it’s favourite or it’s not, except Music uses a star.

Keyword and tagging is super easy, just flick up and use the caption.

RAW : I can’t speak to this, that’s not my bag.
I don’t want to pollute this thread with a bit off-topic answer, although they exemplify a few of the points OP was making:
- I meant to make an already made album (I.e. holiday) and later make it shareable so someone else can add photos. Change a regular album to a shared album (ie holiday with friends).
- does not mean it is the most convenient. Lightroom, Photomator use 5 star ratings for photos. Gives you the opportunity to rate similar photos for example.
- you can only add captions on iOS. Not keywords. Why? Seems like sloppy oversight. The theme of this topic.
- they have all the money in the world. A bit better raw support would be appreciated.
I am just hoping that Apple buying Photomator will result in a much better Photos experience or a separate Aperture like app. “A Mac is for creatives/creators” you hear often, but their Photos app leaves a lot to be desired.
 
I am not interested at all of the company Apple today!
- It all totally died with Jobs!
- The last nail in the coffin was when the design team left Apple.
- I don't watch Apple's keynotes, or presentation of products anymore.
- Soon I don't know any name's of those who works there at all 👍🏼

- I still like and need my Mac's, iPad mini's and iPhone mini.

As there's no new iPhone mini, we'll se what I do when it doesn't serve me anymore?
I don't hate the air or the e phones, so I might buy a new iPhone later, we'll see?

All other Apple products such as Homepod's etc I've sold of.
I didn't like them at all - was not for me at all. I chose other brands.

Apple software, I only use those macOS, iPadOs, iPhoneOs - nothing else regularly.
I use AppleTV a few months/year.
 
Easier for customers to understand is a positive change for customers. It should be a positive change for Apple also since don’t have to take as much time explaining the decoder ring mapping to as many customers in store sales and tech support and in technical support over phones/chat. All that decoder ring explaintion time is time and effort to nowhere. If don’t change it is just as F’ed up the next year as it was the last. It just burns resources down the toilet every year.


Possibly Apple could spend more time feeding back info from support to better fixes. Maybe not( Apple Support is more oriented to making the customer happy/content than in actually solving root cause problems )
So you’re saying:
OS is now named after the year -> Support has an easier time explaining the OS-per-year number -> Support has more time left -> Support uses that time to pass on more feedback to QC?

I just mostly wondered what OP meant by that. Hoping for an answer from them.
 
I believe the quality started slipping soon after Jobs passed and then Forstall got kicked out. They were the ones who gave a hoot about the user experience. Then soon after Apple Silicon arrived and the rate at which new hardware was pushed out increased thereby lowering the amount of time developers had to get work done. Instead of every 18 months it was now every 12 sometimes less. So software lost its two main QA guys then the output cycle got ramped up so naturally quality is going to drop. It is now falling off a cliff.
This is why I outright refuse to use an apple product produced after mid 2012. Everything after is completele garbage. Once they removed the sueprdrive, USB ports, and ethernet port apple went straight downhill. WHats even worse is the OS releases after Mountain Lion. Once they changed the OS names from Big Cats to whack Locations, made them yearly poor cheap/free releases, changed the icons to bland desings, and removed the aqua UI it tanked downhill.

Im still using Snow Leopard daily and have been since 2009 and likely will the rest of my life. I haven't gotten tired of it once in over 16 years. Its still the fastest best looking OS release ever and has ZERO BLOAT unless modern Mac OS'....

My 2009 Mac Pro quad boots into Leopard Server, SNow Leopard, Lion & Mountain Lion. I outright refuse to use any operating system that isnt a Big Cat.

Once Steve passed apple went under. I don't consider any apple product made after mid 2012 an authentic apple product- rather a cheap ripoff.
 
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If you’re a developer and have seen how easy it is to build with Swift compared to Objective C then you’d wish this thread disappear forever. It’s bizarre.

The frameworks are better than ever and you can even mix Swift with C++ to bring in more libraries such as OpenCV.
 
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The software works just fine for me, even on beta builds in the public beta program.

I don’t experience crashes, springboards, or cases of unintended results with built in software that apple creates.

I have issues with other apps not written by folks that work for Apple, for that I don’t blame Apple.

My only apple software problem is Apple Maps. It has in the past recommended unpaved roads; and the time to arrival is always way off. It assumes travel at 11-14MpH over the posted limit.
 
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I stayed away from Linux for two years, and that turned out to be a mistake. I gradually forgot how enjoyable tinkering was. A few days ago, I returned to Linux, trying hard to remind myself of the experience. I explored various distros, file managers, and command line systems, among other things.

As I mentioned earlier, the Apple software developers and maintainers are unknown to users. All we hear is that Apple produces this and that, but there’s no identifiable human responsible for addressing reported bugs—Apple supposedly handles those issues. At least, that’s what we’re led to believe. There’s no dedicated bug reporting system; only the Feedback Assistant exists. I’m not sure where the "Assistant" part comes in, though.

Below is a screenshot that shows how one of the well-known Linux distros' App Centre looks. You can see who the software developers and maintainers are. When you click on any icon, it takes you to that person's GitHub page, where you can report a bug or simply discuss matters. I believe that this should be the standard for Apple as well.

Screenshot From 2025-11-27 22-20-14.png
 
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I stayed away from Linux for two years, and that turned out to be a mistake. I gradually forgot how enjoyable tinkering was. A few days ago, I returned to Linux, trying hard to remind myself of the experience. I explored various distros, file managers, and command line systems, among other things.

As I mentioned earlier, the Apple software developers and maintainers are unknown to users. All we hear is that Apple produces this and that, but there’s no identifiable human responsible for addressing reported bugs—Apple supposedly handles those issues. At least, that’s what we’re led to believe. There’s no dedicated bug reporting system; only the Feedback Assistant exists. I’m not sure where the "Assistant" part comes in, though.

Below is a screenshot that shows how one of the well-known Linux distros' App Centre looks. You can see who the software developers and maintainers are. When you click on any icon, it takes you to that person's GitHub page, where you can report a bug or simply discuss matters. I believe that this should be the standard for Apple as well.

View attachment 2582968
I used to love tinkering back in the day. In the years after I finished high school I would dual boot Windows XP and whichever flavour of Linux I was mucking about with, and BeOS too now that I come to think of it. Eventually, I gave up on it, because it was all just busywork for nothing. For me, Linux was just tinkering for the sake of it, whenever I needed to use my computer to actually DO anything, I'd reboot to Windows, or later, move to my Mac. Now I pretty much only use macOS and love it. It does what I need it to, and I sill play around with command line tools when I want to.
 
Apple software has not gotten worse in a vacuum.

Modern software everywhere is getting worse in a lot of ways.

How much of the problems with macos/ios are caused by the same issues plaguing everyone: increase in scope, and increasing complexity causes issues to compound in a non-linear fashion.

the number of lines of code in modern software is so enormous its impossible for any one individual to fully comprehend.
 
What about the software programmers and maintainers who work for wages and are always on the lookout for their first opportunity to earn better pay somewhere else?
Building a strong company culture and finding employees who are working for more than simply wages is part of the solution to that. The other part is paying competitively and offering good benefits.
 
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