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Need advise regarding the Mac Pro
- Thread starter Apple-Guy
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Thanks, at the risk of being trolly ...... at this point if it's anything other than the PSU it will become a piece of closet art.
That sounds bad
.That sounds about right. Given that 3ds max is Windows only, I don't see as much of a benefit with a Mac Pro. Keep in mind that building it isn't quite the same as playing it. He may be navigating with unbaked textures and higher poly counts that may later be rolled into normal maps. He also said he'd prefer 7 years. There's no way I'd ever suggest anyone base their purchasing decisions on such a requirement.
My 2008 MP is transcoding RED footage to prores right now and has been for the last 2 weeks. Night and day, I've been lucky and never had a problem with this machine.
That means this Mac has been running almost 4.5 years WITHOUT problems and hardly any chrashes. So I think you should be able to get 5 years out of a Mac Pro, depending on what you use it for though. I'm happy that a computer I bought so long ago can handle 4K footage from my RED EPIC (altough not full resolution)
But, I'm really hoping they come out with an upgrade soon as I wouldn't mind a bit of speed increase and TB.
That means this Mac has been running almost 4.5 years WITHOUT problems and hardly any chrashes. So I think you should be able to get 5 years out of a Mac Pro, depending on what you use it for though. I'm happy that a computer I bought so long ago can handle 4K footage from my RED EPIC (altough not full resolution)
But, I'm really hoping they come out with an upgrade soon as I wouldn't mind a bit of speed increase and TB.
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tThanks all for the feedback/input again
Just saw the main page of macrumors and saw that they might be updating the full mac line (or at least 4 of them) @ WWDC, this was my initial deadline and i'll definetly wait till after WWDC, i'll see what to do if they do not happen to announce a mac pro after that
as i said above, i will at least wait till after WWDC (15th of june IIRC) before i do anything, but i will look into buying a "temporary" PC if the mac pro isn't announced, i'll try to get hardware that'll go in the Mac as well (the SSD for example and possibly RAM as well, though i do not know wether mac ram can be used in windows and vice versa, i think so, but not sure)
It is beautiful isn't it ^^, though that is not the main reason why i'm getting a mac, i like OS X above windows regarding UI and user friendlyness (apart from terminal) sorry to hear yours broke just out of warranty, though if i'm getting a mac pro, i AM DEFINETLY getting apple care, can't take that risk
same thing happened to my MacBook Pro, broke just out of warranty (1 or 2 months ), still glad i went to get ti fixed rather than buying a windows pc with the money i payed for the repairs
Yes, i saw that memory from OWC and i must've looked over it or somehow misinterpreted, i don't remember, but thought that was "normal" RAM
and no, i do not want to burn my money
as for the SSD, i don't know how those Mac Pro Hard drive bays work, but is it just a normal hard drive inside a shell? opened up a G5 recently which still has the standalone hard drives connected with cables, but know that the mac pro uses a special docking mechanism, so i wonder if you need to buy an SSD specificly made for the Mac Pro's docking mechanisme?
I know that lots of the work i'll be doing will be in windows (as much as i hate it), however, i still prefer Mac OS over windows, yes 3DS max might be windows and yes lots of other socftware is as well, but i also mentioned that i'll be doing video editing/photoshop
and for tha ti prefer the OS X side, i've tried photoshop for windows as well as vegas pro for video editing, but it just isn't the same
as for rebooting between OS's to switch to applications, i know this is a pain and i do it on my MBP as well, sometimes just delay stuff ebcaus ei don't fel like rebooting, but i guess i can install parallels to circumvent that
ps love the fact you say "PeeCee" as well, my dad does it too and i don't know why, but it's funny to hear him say it when i read it xD
i know, more and more developers try to get their games to the mac, most often, they are ports done by other companies, but UDK recently released tools to port to the mac side, so i think it'll only get better
the game engines however, you're right about those, they'll likely never be ported to the mac side, since they contain millions of lines of code, the only chance for a mac game dev engine is when a new one is built from scratch
and Zbrush comes for mac as well, doesn't allow for fine details as in max, but it sure is great modeling software
the course is a 3-4 year course, so depending where i end up after that, i might not need the power to handle the development software from then, i'll probably just need a stable system whihc can still handle quite a lot from there-on-out
the reason for the 7 years, is because i'm just a student, working part time, i do not want ot buy a 4K comp if it isn't going to carry me all the way through, i can't afford that
and i think i know what you're thinking; get a PC then, as i said before, i prefer OS X any time, i've wasted too much time fixing problems in windows, but that might just be my luck...
^thank you for contributing that a mac can indeed last +4 years, which i hope mine will too (one can only hope), which model are you running when you say it cna no longer handle Full Reso footage and which resolution ar eyou working with?
Again, thanks all for the feedback and let's hope WWDC brings us news
Regards,
Apple-Guy
Just saw the main page of macrumors and saw that they might be updating the full mac line (or at least 4 of them) @ WWDC, this was my initial deadline and i'll definetly wait till after WWDC, i'll see what to do if they do not happen to announce a mac pro after that
as i said above, i will at least wait till after WWDC (15th of june IIRC) before i do anything, but i will look into buying a "temporary" PC if the mac pro isn't announced, i'll try to get hardware that'll go in the Mac as well (the SSD for example and possibly RAM as well, though i do not know wether mac ram can be used in windows and vice versa, i think so, but not sure)
My 2010 Mac Pro is at the Bar with hardware problems only 4 months out of warranty. I've built Windows machines from the motherboard up for years and never really had a hardware problem I couldn't cheaply solve - usually changed parts as upgrades before anything broke
This Mac Pro machine is beautiful and worked fine for almost a year and a half; but currently posts and shuts down so quick that there is no log or panic. I've swapped all memory (26GB down to 4GB) and done memory checks, switched between 5 drives and reloaded both SL and Lion. It now shuts down as soon as even the CD drive boots. I'd narrowed it down to PSU or Video but could still be one of the CPU's or main board. Geniuses are currently swapping parts (it isn't the video, memory, drive, or software) and I've gone back to my dependable windows machine.
The only reason I bought the Mac Pro was the hardware sure is beautiful ....
It is beautiful isn't it ^^, though that is not the main reason why i'm getting a mac, i like OS X above windows regarding UI and user friendlyness (apart from terminal) sorry to hear yours broke just out of warranty, though if i'm getting a mac pro, i AM DEFINETLY getting apple care, can't take that risk
same thing happened to my MacBook Pro, broke just out of warranty (1 or 2 months
), still glad i went to get ti fixed rather than buying a windows pc with the money i payed for the repairsYes, i saw that memory from OWC and i must've looked over it or somehow misinterpreted, i don't remember, but thought that was "normal" RAM
and no, i do not want to burn my money
as for the SSD, i don't know how those Mac Pro Hard drive bays work, but is it just a normal hard drive inside a shell? opened up a G5 recently which still has the standalone hard drives connected with cables, but know that the mac pro uses a special docking mechanism, so i wonder if you need to buy an SSD specificly made for the Mac Pro's docking mechanisme?
I know that lots of the work i'll be doing will be in windows (as much as i hate it), however, i still prefer Mac OS over windows, yes 3DS max might be windows and yes lots of other socftware is as well, but i also mentioned that i'll be doing video editing/photoshop
and for tha ti prefer the OS X side, i've tried photoshop for windows as well as vegas pro for video editing, but it just isn't the same
as for rebooting between OS's to switch to applications, i know this is a pain and i do it on my MBP as well, sometimes just delay stuff ebcaus ei don't fel like rebooting, but i guess i can install parallels to circumvent that
ps love the fact you say "PeeCee" as well, my dad does it too and i don't know why, but it's funny to hear him say it when i read it xD
i know, more and more developers try to get their games to the mac, most often, they are ports done by other companies, but UDK recently released tools to port to the mac side, so i think it'll only get better
the game engines however, you're right about those, they'll likely never be ported to the mac side, since they contain millions of lines of code, the only chance for a mac game dev engine is when a new one is built from scratch
and Zbrush comes for mac as well, doesn't allow for fine details as in max, but it sure is great modeling software
the course is a 3-4 year course, so depending where i end up after that, i might not need the power to handle the development software from then, i'll probably just need a stable system whihc can still handle quite a lot from there-on-out
That sounds bad
That sounds about right. Given that 3ds max is Windows only, I don't see as much of a benefit with a Mac Pro. Keep in mind that building it isn't quite the same as playing it. He may be navigating with unbaked textures and higher poly counts that may later be rolled into normal maps. He also said he'd prefer 7 years. There's no way I'd ever suggest anyone base their purchasing decisions on such a requirement.
the reason for the 7 years, is because i'm just a student, working part time, i do not want ot buy a 4K comp if it isn't going to carry me all the way through, i can't afford that
and i think i know what you're thinking; get a PC then, as i said before, i prefer OS X any time, i've wasted too much time fixing problems in windows, but that might just be my luck...
^thank you for contributing that a mac can indeed last +4 years, which i hope mine will too (one can only hope), which model are you running when you say it cna no longer handle Full Reso footage and which resolution ar eyou working with?
Again, thanks all for the feedback and let's hope WWDC brings us news
Regards,
Apple-Guy
It´s the MP in my sig. 2008 2.8 eight core, 10GB RAM (Only, wish I had more)
It handles full res of "normal" HD (1080P) just fine, but my RED camera shoots 4K and 5K resolution (4K is equivalent to 4 1080 images).
Premiere lets me set the playback resolution when editing, it means no transcoding before you start to edit (you do have to do it at the end though, but you can go right to work)
I can play back 1/8 or 1/4 resolution, depending on the format. Trancoding times are long, I could get a dedicated video card from RED (RED ROCKET) that would make transcoding go to realtime, but the bloody card costs $5000, and is 3 years old already. I´m hoping a new MP could speed things up to a little less cost
EDIT I see now I manage to write the MP has been running 4,5 years WITH OUR problems, should have been WITHOUT. Gotta love iPhone spell check
It handles full res of "normal" HD (1080P) just fine, but my RED camera shoots 4K and 5K resolution (4K is equivalent to 4 1080 images).
Premiere lets me set the playback resolution when editing, it means no transcoding before you start to edit (you do have to do it at the end though, but you can go right to work)
I can play back 1/8 or 1/4 resolution, depending on the format. Trancoding times are long, I could get a dedicated video card from RED (RED ROCKET) that would make transcoding go to realtime, but the bloody card costs $5000, and is 3 years old already. I´m hoping a new MP could speed things up to a little less cost
EDIT I see now I manage to write the MP has been running 4,5 years WITH OUR problems, should have been WITHOUT. Gotta love iPhone spell check
To be honest I'd stay away from them.
Back when the Mac Pro was released in 2010 it was a pretty good system, but the dual-processor models were the better value and price wise was within a few hundred of the competition, unlike the single-processor models which cost +$1k more than the competition.
My advice: wait for the WWDC event and see if it's refreshed. If so, proceed, likely with the dual-processor model as it's the best value, if not, either grab the new iMac or pickup a Dell workstation.
If you do opt for the current gen (or next gen) make sure you purchase the RAM from a third party like otherworldcomputing and NOT from Apple -- you'll literally pay five to ten fold what it's actually worth, and do the same for anything you can but the CPU/GPU.
Back when the Mac Pro was released in 2010 it was a pretty good system, but the dual-processor models were the better value and price wise was within a few hundred of the competition, unlike the single-processor models which cost +$1k more than the competition.
My advice: wait for the WWDC event and see if it's refreshed. If so, proceed, likely with the dual-processor model as it's the best value, if not, either grab the new iMac or pickup a Dell workstation.
If you do opt for the current gen (or next gen) make sure you purchase the RAM from a third party like otherworldcomputing and NOT from Apple -- you'll literally pay five to ten fold what it's actually worth, and do the same for anything you can but the CPU/GPU.
As much as I love Macs, many people will tell you that PC is the way to go for high end 3D. Just Google around and you'll find that this is more or less the consensus in those types of communities. Autodesk doesn't even make 3DS Max for Mac currently, so you would have to install a Windows partition anyway, which can get annoying if you get a cool idea that you want to play with and have to reboot into Windows. From what I understand, customizing a PC with workstation class parts (i.e. a motherboard with multiple processor sockets, ECC memory, etc.) can be tough. If you want to go ultra high end and have Mac Pro kind of money to spend, I would consider an HP or Dell workstation.
One thing to keep in mind is that Mac Pros are good Windows rigs as well. If the new Mac Pro prices look sane, there is no reason not to get a Mac Pro and boot camp it. A 6 or 8 core Mac Pro is easily going to be faster than an i7 for the work you're doing.
@dylan, i know most of the software is windows but i also plan on doing video editing which i prefer doing in mac (yes, i tried sony vegas, but prefer the simplicity of final cut pro)
@goMac yup, it's what i'm planning and knowing they just announced that the new mac pros will come next week (source; https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1380540/ )
i'm super excited
Regards,
Apple-Guy
@goMac yup, it's what i'm planning and knowing they just announced that the new mac pros will come next week (source; https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1380540/ )
i'm super excited
Regards,
Apple-Guy
The viewport in Maya/3DS Max renders 3D objects/animations VERY differently from a game engine. Where one might prefer a consumer grade card for performance, the other might prefer a workstation card. Also, no game takes advantage of Quadros. Quadros are for optimized applications. Games are not optimized for anything. Again, where a game might render a high poly count really well on a consumer card, it could come to a complete halt with a high poly count in Maya. However, the Quadro 4000 will be able to easily handle textured models with high poly counts. Check out this video. Something like that cannot be accomplished on a consumer card.
For the original poster:
So yes, you might be OK with a consumer card since it sounds like you will be creating more for games than anything else. And games do not require nearly as high poly counts since everything needs to be rendered in real time through a game engine. But, consider the fact that most of the time in games you model in high res, then bake out your normals. So for a character, you would first model in high res at a high poly count, then bake out that info to a normal map for a low res version. So the end result may be low res, but you would not be working with low poly counts at all time.
With that being said, my suggestion would be to get a Quadro 4000 if you are set on staying on OS X and not going custom built desktop.
Seeing that the new model numbers were just leaked a little while ago, I'd wait.
And for those of you reading this, don't you dare start a new thread about new Mac Pros FINALLY, given the new model numbers that were just release. The forum police are closing EVERY thread someone tries to make about it and directing them to the one news story to post in.
And for those of you reading this, don't you dare start a new thread about new Mac Pros FINALLY, given the new model numbers that were just release. The forum police are closing EVERY thread someone tries to make about it and directing them to the one news story to post in.
Temporary Computer
Apple Guy,
if you get to the point where you got to buy a temporary computer, try reading forums with people using Mac Mini Server for Final Cut Pro, i know some people here will criticise the idea but they are used without problems and when a new Mac Pro is released either you will find another use for the Mini Server or it will sell for alot of money unlike a used windows box
Apple Guy,
if you get to the point where you got to buy a temporary computer, try reading forums with people using Mac Mini Server for Final Cut Pro, i know some people here will criticise the idea but they are used without problems and when a new Mac Pro is released either you will find another use for the Mini Server or it will sell for alot of money unlike a used windows box
@vngasuk noting that new mac pro's will be released next week (probably), i don't think i'll go with a temporary computer ^^, but thanks for the advise
oh and how long do you think it take for OWC to update their RAM for the Mac Pro? another week?
Regards,
Apple-Guy
oh and how long do you think it take for OWC to update their RAM for the Mac Pro? another week?
Regards,
Apple-Guy
@vngasuk noting that new mac pro's will be released next week (probably), i don't think i'll go with a temporary computer ^^, but thanks for the advise
oh and how long do you think it take for OWC to update their RAM for the Mac Pro? another week?
Regards,
Apple-Guy
Why would you need to wait for OWC? There are hundreds of suppliers in Europe that will be able to supply you the correct RAM since it's the same stuff that's being used in current servers and workstations, as long as you match the specs that Apple wants. I don't think it would be wise to buy from OWC considering that you're in Belgium. I've ordered stuff from OWC before and with the tax, duties and shipping the cost ended up the same as if I had bought locally (I am in the UK).
@vngasuk noting that new mac pro's will be released next week (probably), i don't think i'll go with a temporary computer ^^, but thanks for the advise
oh and how long do you think it take for OWC to update their RAM for the Mac Pro? another week?
Regards,
Apple-Guy
Back when the 2010 came out, I don't even think it took a week for them to update their website for new RAM.
forgot about tax... you might just be right, will have to check if there aren't any local dealers, will see
Even better
though as theseb said, i'll have to see with the tax and all thatRegards,
Apple-Guy
Did you start with one of the AMD cards when you bought your current rig? I'm always reading varying information on this. The autodesk forums and one of the others turns up a number of discussions on how well the nitrous viewport in max benefits from the Quadro cards. Here's another. It seems like the topic comes up frequently. My issue with the Quadro 4000 under OSX is that it doesn't support OpenCL, and it's not a universal improvement among OpenGL based applications (not talking about games in any way). You're right about modeling high poly first. I don't know how far most of those guys go before they start to bake it down. I mean I don't know if they're setting up entire scenes in medium poly settings before they begin with maps. It's important to remember we're talking about a student here who is unlikely to start off on anything too heavy. I think he'd be better off waiting for an update, then getting something that would last just through college rather than spend so much that he feels compelled to keep it forever.
I think we talked about this in detail once where I was saying that the Quadro cards aren't always well supported in OSX. I don't do character work, but if I was going to try it, I'd be really careful with topology to prevent choking my system with extra subdivision levels. I dislike the way things sculpt when they're not optimized, as you can run into some really weird behavior. In the OP's case he'd be using Max quite a lot under Windows, and if I recall correctly it has nice topology tools built in (unlike maya). I'm not that familiar with Max, so feel free to correct me. Since zbrush was mentioned, it doesn't rely much on the graphics card as it's not an OpenGL based application. It would be different if he said Mudbox.
Pretty much agreed with all of what you said.
The main point I was trying to get at is that a Quadro 4000 is going to be so much better in Autodesk and Adobe apps than an Apple 5870. And because of optimization, I would bet money that it will still perform better than a 7970 in professional apps. Games are a different story and are of really no interest to me.
I also know that just buying a $150 Quadro 600 will easily outperform a 5870 in professional apps. Again, just because of optimization.
But one thing to consider, like you mentioned, it that support on OS X is lacking from NVIDIA. With that being said, support from NVIDIA for Autodesk apps seem to be pretty good. Not as good as on Windows, but still not horrible. So if the main focus is going to be high poly modeling, a Quadro would be way better in my opinion.
And yes, a student may not be doing any crazy high poly work. But animating in the Maya viewport on a 5870 is atrocious. So if he does anything above extremely basic animating in an Autodesk app, I would not be able to suggest a consumer card.
Also, the Mercury Playback Engine in AE and Premiere is in love with CUDA. So NVIDIA would also be the way to go there.