Netflix and HTML5?

[827538]

Still disappointing that Apple didn’t come up with a solution for older Macs. I’m using Google Chrome with that specific HTML5 plugin enabled and can watch Netflix with a fraction of the resources compared to Safari and Silverlight. Sometimes I wonder whether Apple is even trying. I don’t particularly like Google, but I really appreciate their support of older Macs and the Mac platform in general.

It's to do with the CPU's supporting native decryption and decoding of the video and audio. Also HTML5 is not a plugin! That's the whole point of it, it's essentially native web format so we can do away with the inefficiency and insecurity of rubbish like Flash and Silverlight.
I guarantee Chrome on older Mac's will not be running HTML5 video decoding natively, sure they can do it, but it won't be as effortless and efficient as newer CPU's and that's probably why Apple didn't support it - so misinformed users don't go 'why am I not seeing battery life gains when using HTML5 on my C2D Mac'.
Don't get me wrong, using HTML5 will be more efficient than Flash no matter the hardware.
Just I know Intel's newer architectures are designed with this sort of support for decryption and decoding built in, while older architectures like Conroe and Kentsfield came before HTML5 really took hold.

Either way Flash and Silverlight can't die soon enough, HTML5 is the future and Safari was the first to support Netflix HTML5 so props to them for that. Just wish Firefox would hurry up but I understand their hesitation for supporting HTML5 DRM but it's a fair compromise in my opinion. But it will happen eventually as it's just a far more elegant and efficient solution than plugins like Silverlight.

 

[KALLT]

It's to do with the CPU's supporting native decryption and decoding of the video and audio. Also HTML5 is not a plugin! That's the whole point of it, it's essentially native web format so we can do away with the inefficiency and insecurity of rubbish like Flash and Silverlight.
I guarantee Chrome on older Mac's will not be running HTML5 video decoding natively, sure they can do it, but it won't be as effortless and efficient as newer CPU's and that's probably why Apple didn't support it - so misinformed users don't go 'why am I not seeing battery life gains when using HTML5 on my C2D Mac'.
Don't get me wrong, using HTML5 will be more efficient than Flash no matter the hardware.
Just I know Intel's newer architectures are designed with this sort of support for decryption and decoding built in, while older architectures like Conroe and Kentsfield came before HTML5 really took hold.

Either way Flash and Silverlight can't die soon enough, HTML5 is the future and Safari was the first to support Netflix HTML5 so props to them for that. Just wish Firefox would hurry up but I understand their hesitation for supporting HTML5 DRM but it's a fair compromise in my opinion. But it will happen eventually as it's just a far more elegant and efficient solution than plugins like Silverlight.

I never said that HTML5 is a plugin (though I realise my wording was a bit confusing). Newer versions of Chrome use a plugin (Widevine) to decode Netflix’ HTML5 video natively without external plugins like Silverlight. The hardware doesn’t seem to prevent Google from offering a solution that avoids Silverlight, with a performance that is actually quite good, much better than Safari with Silverlight. Apple could have equally offered something like that, but they refused to do so. I realise that the benefits are still greater for hardware-based decoding, but this decision means that everyone else is still stuck with the poorly-optimised and officially abandoned Silverlight, whereas Google makes an effort to move ahead.

Moreover, DRM-protected HTML5 content is actually one step back. It requires specific proprietary plugins to allow for the decoding of the video, which is far away from the initial goal to dispense with such plugins altogether in favour of uniform media standards. Even though Safari does now decrypt Netflix video natively, that still had to be implemented with software, despite the fact that the actual decryption is done by the CPU. Essentially, we have simply replaced Silverlight with another program, though it is much better optimised of course.

 

[827538]

I never said that HTML5 is a plugin (though I realise my wording was a bit confusing). Newer versions of Chrome use a plugin (Widevine) to decode Netflix’ HTML5 video natively without external plugins like Silverlight. The hardware doesn’t seem to prevent Google from offering a solution that avoids Silverlight, with a performance that is actually quite good, much better than Safari with Silverlight. Apple could have equally offered something like that, but they refused to do so. I realise that the benefits are still greater for hardware-based decoding, but this decision means that everyone else is still stuck with the poorly-optimised and officially abandoned Silverlight, whereas Google makes an effort to move ahead.

Perhaps in a warped way it's the right thing to do. Widevine while clearly a far superior solution than Silverlight is still a non-native solution in order to support non-native hardware decoding. If Safari incorporated something like this it means it's including legacy code and support that newer systems don't need. By simply saying only hardware that natively supports this stuff we can really move with the times.

C2D is an old architecture, I still remember building a monster system with a QX6850 (Core 2 Quad Core Extreme) for when Crysis launched. That was way back when I was still in high school. I think Apple is doing the right thing. There's nothing stopping users from using Chrome. Or the other option is to upgrade to a newer system, I realise not everyone has the money but at some point you have to stop supporting legacy hardware or we would never get anywhere. It's the same reason they don't release iOS updates for old iPhones.

 

[KALLT]

If Safari incorporated something like this it means it's including legacy code and support that newer systems don't need. By simply saying only hardware that natively supports this stuff we can really move with the times.

I doubt that this is of much concern, I’m sure they would have been able to find a neat solution for this. It is rather Apple’s typical behaviour to limit the extent of certain features to modern hardware alone, even though it would have been possible to create similar features with workarounds as well. AirDrop and Siri are two examples that were not impossible to make on older devices, but were left out intentionally to focus on the underlying technology alone.

Still, I had hoped that Apple would show a bit more flexibility here, as they have been pushing for HTML5 so hard and refusing to pre-install Flash and Java for some time now. I would love to get rid of Silverlight, but I just couldn't without Chrome. For that reason alone I keep Chrome around, because it does support most of these technologies natively and even has its own solution for Netflix, which is probably the most resource-efficient solution on older Macs now. Things like these make me lose faith in OS X a little. It all works great, for as long as you have the latest hardware. Even though my MacBook still works very well, I have to put up with unoptimised software all the time, just because Apple decides to focus on newer hardware.

 

[cynics]

Netflix and HTML5?

Frustrating you can't airplay netflix html5 from safari. You either need to turn silverlight back on or use HTML5 in chrome.



Anyone know a way around this? Apple is making it extremely difficult for me to stick with there software. This is just another new way they found to push me toward Google.

 

[827538]

I doubt that this is of much concern, I’m sure they would have been able to find a neat solution for this. It is rather Apple’s typical behaviour to limit the extent of certain features to modern hardware alone, even though it would have been possible to create similar features with workarounds as well. AirDrop and Siri are two examples that were not impossible to make on older devices, but were left out intentionally to focus on the underlying technology alone.

Still, I had hoped that Apple would show a bit more flexibility here, as they have been pushing for HTML5 so hard and refusing to pre-install Flash and Java for some time now. I would love to get rid of Silverlight, but I just couldn't without Chrome. For that reason alone I keep Chrome around, because it does support most of these technologies natively and even has its own solution for Netflix, which is probably the most resource-efficient solution on older Macs now. Things like these make me lose faith in OS X a little. It all works great, for as long as you have the latest hardware. Even though my MacBook still works very well, I have to put up with unoptimised software all the time, just because Apple decides to focus on newer hardware.

Maybe it's time to upgrade? There's usually some pretty sweet deals on refurbs. Personally I'm in the camp that never usually has anything older than 2 years so I'm all for this strategy but I understand it leaves some people behind.

 

[jimsowden]

No, Chrome does not have a silverlight extension builtin.

Oh really? Explain this.

 

[revanmj]

Oh really? Explain this.

It plays the movie using HTML5? You should have show context menu of the movie to prove that this is Silverlight, not HTML5.

And as far as I know there are two locations where plugins such as Flash, Silverlight, Google Hangouts, etc. can be placed

 

[Wheelie4]

Netflix movies place for me in Safari 8.0 on Yosemite without Silverlight installed.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Oh really? Explain this.

Chrome is using html5

 

[benji888]

Netflix has been running perfectly in HTML5 on Safari for me since the Public Beta. It makes such a difference, my Mac goes from roasting hot and poor battery life on Silverlight in Mavericks to the fans either being off or inaudible and the laptop running perfectly cool. Also youtube now runs in HTML5 as default which is great.

What Mac do you have?

 

[827538]

What Mac do you have?

Check my sig, Late 2013 Retina Macbook Pro (That's the one with the latest Haswell CPU).

 

[benji888]

Check my sig, Late 2013 Retina Macbook Pro (That's the one with the latest Haswell CPU).

In reading about this issue: "This movie can be played only on displays that support HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)" this would indicate to me that newer Macs, such as yours, includes HDCP decryption, which, must be a hardware item, not only in the newer Macs, but, in display controllers, as some had this error come up with USB connected monitors...this could explain why I can't get Netflix's 1080p content. HDCP decryption must be what is in my blu-ray player, which does play Netflix 1080p content. (I found this on 11/3/14's post here: http://xlr8yourmac.com)

So, while I can play HTML5 YouTube videos, they likely do not have HDCP encryption, while Netflix HTML5 HD video most likely does have HDCP encryption, which only newer Macs have. The only question is how much newer? ...OK, one more question: why couldn't I add HDCP to any Mac? It is completely capable of playing HD HTML5 vid, as already shown, using much less resources than SD flash video. Plus, I can play 1080p iTunes video, which brings more confusion to my mind. ...HDCP must only be implemented for streaming content, not downloads?

 

[benji888]

I never said that HTML5 is a plugin (though I realise my wording was a bit confusing). Newer versions of Chrome use a plugin (Widevine) to decode Netflix’ HTML5 video natively without external plugins like Silverlight. The hardware doesn’t seem to prevent Google from offering a solution that avoids Silverlight, with a performance that is actually quite good, much better than Safari with Silverlight. Apple could have equally offered something like that, but they refused to do so. I realise that the benefits are still greater for hardware-based decoding, but this decision means that everyone else is still stuck with the poorly-optimised and officially abandoned Silverlight, whereas Google makes an effort to move ahead.

Moreover, DRM-protected HTML5 content is actually one step back. It requires specific proprietary plugins to allow for the decoding of the video, which is far away from the initial goal to dispense with such plugins altogether in favour of uniform media standards. Even though Safari does now decrypt Netflix video natively, that still had to be implemented with software, despite the fact that the actual decryption is done by the CPU. Essentially, we have simply replaced Silverlight with another program, though it is much better optimised of course.

Whatever Chrome is doing to play Netflix, it is tricking it into thinking the silverlight plug-in is installed, because, for me, with my not-new mid 2010 MBP, it plays exactly the same as if I had silverlight installed. I no longer have Chrome, so I can't give you screenshots, but, I guarantee you, it was not playing HTML5 Netflix 1080p video.

Netflix movies place for me in Safari 8.0 on Yosemite without Silverlight installed.

That is because you have a newer iMac, I'm pretty sure it has to do with HDCP encryption w/HD video streaming, something only newer Macs are able to decrypt. Set-top boxes have this decryption built-in. ...It's those of us with slightly older Macs that it doesn't work with.

Chrome is using html5

Maybe for browsing and YouTube videos, but, not so sure you can make a blanket statement like that. Chrome uses emulation for some things, and it did not play Netflix 1080p, which means, it did NOT play HTML5 netflix video.

I dumped Chrome after testing it out, it did nothing better than Safari 8 for me, in fact, as far as HTML5 goes, Safari 8 is fastest. I despise google, so no Chrome for me. (I have a gmail, I watch YT videos, but, they force you into google plus and do other things i don't like, some behind my back.)

 

[benji888]

To all:

After taking the time to read up on HDCP, I do think the real issue has to do with recent HDCP specs. While unibody MBPs appear to have HDCP compliance, in reading the wikipedia reference, I am guessing that it has little to do with Apple hardware, but, rather, only the video interface, as that is the point where HDCP compliance comes in. It would appear (to me, my guess) they began HDCP 2.0 compliance with unibody MacBooks, however, today’s issues seem to stem from HDCP 2.1 & up, (summer 2011), which, I am theorizing, so, those with early 2011 Macs (sandy bridge), I wonder if they work, or if it’s only late 2011 models?

In any case, I am guessing there is a difference between the pre-Thunderbolt mini display port spec and the display port spec after Thunderbolt was implemented. It uses the same connector, but, likely a newer HDCP compliance is there.

Also, set-top boxes, such as Apple TV or Roku, and blu-ray players have HDCP compliance built-in, and most of these were built after the HDCP spec in question.

Again, I seriously doubt the issue is with Apple processor or graphics hardware capability, but, must be in which HDCP revision the video output hardware has, whether it’s outputting to the built-in display or though an external port. I think any Apple machine with Thunderbolt (and HDMI) connections, with built-in displays or the proper adapters & HDCP compliant displays will work, have a recent enough revision of HDCP. (Can’t use a VGA monitor via adapter.)

This is why a proper display connected via USB adapters won’t work, as described here: https://discussions.apple.com/message/27016609#27016609

So, in conclusion: (Since neither Apple, nor Netflix seem to want to give us the reason specific machines work and others don't, my guess is this): if the problem was full HDCP non-compliance, you might get an error about not having HDCP display, rather, the issue, as described above, seems to be not having the latest HDCP compliant hardware in the display output, (to built-in display or external port), to support the latest HDCP encryption for (HTML5-based) 1080p/5.1DD+ streaming content. So, instead of getting an HDCP non-compliance error, it simply reverts to the need for flash or silverlight, depending on source (Hulu using flash). (see the table in the wikipedia link below), as your machine is HDCP compliant, but not to the latest spec.

If anyone has read some specs from Apple that detail what the real issue is on this, please link it here in this thread! THX!


References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection
"High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP), is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation[1] to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across connections. Types of connections include DisplayPort (DP), Digital Visual Interface (DVI), and High-Definition Multimedia Interface(HDMI), as well as less popular, or now defunct, protocols like Gigabit Video Interface (GVIF) and Unified Display Interface (UDI)."

…

"Encryption is done by a stream cipher. Each decoded pixel is encrypted by applying an XOR operation with a 24-bit number produced by a generator. The HDCP specifications ensure constant updating of keys after each encoded frame."

…

"There is also the problem that all Apple laptop products, presumably to reduce switch time, when confronted with an HDCP compliant device switches all output from the DVI / Mini DisplayPort / Thunderbolt connector port to HDCP compliant. This is a problem if you wish to record or use video conferencing facilities further down the chain, which are inherently forbidden by HDCP. This applies even if the output is not HDCP material, like a PowerPoint presentation."

(please see wikipedia for the table that shows HDCP updates, link above.)


http://www.digitalconnection.com/FAQ/HDTV_12.asp
"How does it work?

A simple answer is that an HDCP session will result in the exchange of keys between the source and display device. The source device will query the display to make sure that the equipment is HDCP compliant before video is shown. Non-HDCP devices such as PC's and older model DVI products will work with any DVI compliant display, but the HDCP compliant boxes will show an image only on HDCP compliant display.

Other products affected by HDCP are scalers, switchers, and splitters (distribution amps). While these devices do no authentication for key exchange, they must be able to transmit the presence of HDCP if the video is handled (processed) in any way. Due to the two different formats of digital connections, occasional inability for proper communications may result in loss of interoperability. The newer format, HDMI was designed to be backwards compatible with DVI and in most instances, the two signal types are easily adaptable, but older devices may not always work well with in-line devices like scalers or switchers. These problems can sometimes be fixed in "firmware' although that is not always the case. Incompatibility is often displays on-screen as a snowy image or an error message."


see also:

https://www.macrumors.com/2008/11/18/apple-incorporates-hdcp-copy-protection-in-new-laptops/

http://www.macworld.com/article/1157262/hdcp_errors.html

 

[SlCKB0Y]

it did NOT play HTML5 netflix video.

Funny, since I just played something on Netflix using Chrome/HTML5!

 

[benji888]

Funny, since I just played something on Netflix using Chrome/HTML5!

Now that I see what Macs you have, I suppose that is possible, for your Macs, but, HTML5 will run faster with Safari 8 (have you tried it/compared?). With newer Macs, you can run HTML 5 now with Yosemite & Safari 8. Also, even though Chrome, as you say, runs HTML5 netflix, does it give you 1080p & 5.1 DD+ audio?. ...I do not have a new enough Mac, this does not work on my Mac, for whatever reason, which I just tried to figure out in my last comment. Again, HTML5 YouTube videos play, netflix will not run on my Mac with HTML5, no matter what I try.

 

[emio]

I'm confused: Can my mac (Apple iMac i5 2.9GHz 21.5" (Late 2012)) doing Netflix with Safari and HTML5? Is somewhere a list which Macs are compatible?

 

[benji888]

I'm confused: Can my mac (Apple iMac i5 2.9GHz 21.5" (Late 2012)) doing Netflix with Safari and HTML5? Is somewhere a list which Macs are compatible?

No, there isn't, neither Apple nor Netflix seems to care enough to let us know.

However, I would assume yours will, I'm pretty sure it's new enough. Are you running Yosemite? With Yosemite & Safari 8, you'll get HTML5 video. For Netflix, go to your account settings and check "prefer HTML5 video".

The main advantage is that it will use less of your processor to produce video, and should get 1080p vid from Netflix.

My machine will play HTML5 YouTube videos, but, not Netflix.

 

[mastertmp21]

Okay so I'm not sure if it matters to anybody at this point but I'll throw my 2 cents in..

I have HTML5 working on my MBP Mid '09 Yosemite 10.10.1 working with Chrome version 39.0.2171.62 beta (64-bit) I researched getting it done on safari, but like most, I came up with nothing..

I followed the instructions here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/netflix/comments/2cti15/meta_html5_available_in_chrome_beta/

As far as proof that I am indeed using HTML5 while watching Netflix. The only way I can tell is because when I open up Chrome Task Manger, I see an entry for "Plug-in: Widevine Content Decryption Module" while watching Netflix.

I have no idea how to check on other websites, but if somebody would like to inform me of a method I would be happy to test for anybody.

It does really suck, i switched from Chrome to Safari on all my devices because of how resource efficient Safari was suppose to be vs everything else. For now I have Chrome only my Mac with the homepage being netflix. Chrome does use a lot less resources vs Safari and Silverlight.

Oh well lol, hope this helps somebody.

TLDR: HTML5 on Chrome working on old Mac with How-To

 

[emio]

Has Netflix updated the FAQ on his website? This is new to me:

Netflix.com HTML5 Player Features

This article describes features available when streaming video from the Netflix.com Player in your web browser.

Supported Browsers:

> Internet Explorer 11+ on Windows 8.1 and later
> Safari on Mac OSX 10.10+ (Yosemite)
Supported on early-2011 models or later with some Sandy Bridge and all Ivy Bridge/Haswell processors
> Google Chrome version 37+

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/20828?catId=en/133

Is this accurate?

 

[MonkeySee....]

Can someone help me..

I understand that I won't be able to get this to work on my 2010 iMac, thats fine. How on earth do I get Netflix to stop trying? I have silverlight installed but Netflix will refuse to use it and will try and push HTML5.

p.s I do not want Chrome installed on my Mac.

 

[cynics]

Can someone help me..

I understand that I won't be able to get this to work on my 2010 iMac, thats fine. How on earth do I get Netflix to stop trying? I have silverlight installed but Netflix will refuse to use it and will try and push HTML5.

p.s I do not want Chrome installed on my Mac.

I believe Netflix got rid of Silverlight now as there is no longer an option (prefer HTML5 setting). So I'd assume if your computer can't use Safari with HTML5 you will be forced to use Chrome (or any browser that supports it).

I still find it frustrating I can't use Safari to AirPlay Netflix anymore and as of now the only solution is using Chrome.

 

[MonkeySee....]

I believe Netflix got rid of Silverlight now as there is no longer an option (prefer HTML5 setting). So I'd assume if your computer can't use Safari with HTML5 you will be forced to use Chrome (or any browser that supports it).

I still find it frustrating I can't use Safari to AirPlay Netflix anymore and as of now the only solution is using Chrome.

how bizarre!

Cheers for letting me know.