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EugW

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Jun 18, 2017
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The Studio's case is built for the Ultra and yet Apple leaves the Mini case half empty with the plain M1. The M1 Pro could easily fit inside there. [ That configuration won't win any "even quieter" objective , but in many server contexts that is far from a priority. ]
I know this has been partially addressed in the previous post, but nonetheless I would just like to point out to the other readers that the Mac mini is actually a larger volume form factor than the 14" MacBook Pro, mainly because the Mac mini is much, much thicker in comparison. Yet the MBP has a keyboard, trackpad, top case, screen with backlight, speakers, and battery, and can support up to the M1 Max... and people say it is quiet with most usage.

In that context, it seems obvious that the Mac mini housing could easily support the M2 Pro, and remain quiet with general usage, only becoming louder with heavy lifting.

The one difference to consider here is that the power supply of the Mac mini is inside it. Even then the Mac mini could accommodate that and an M2 Pro, considering that right now the M1 Mac mini with internal supply is mostly just empty space. It's also possible (although probably not preferred) that a Mac mini could be made with an external power supply.

Will Apple release such a beast? I dunno, but from a technical point of view this is a low hanging fruit for them, easy to do.
 
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staypuftforums

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Jun 27, 2021
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I swear, if they jack up the price on the new mini while leaving the M1 version for sale at the current price I’m going to throw the hissiest of fits.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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I know this has been partially addressed in the previous post, but nonetheless I would just like to point out to the other readers that the Mac mini is actually a larger volume form factor than the 14" MacBook Pro, mainly because the Mac mini is much, much thicker in comparison. ...

The one difference to consider here is that the power supply of the Mac mini is inside it. Even then the Mac mini could accommodate that and an M2 Pro, considering that right now the M1 Mac mini with internal supply is mostly just empty space. It's also possible (although probably not preferred) that a Mac mini could be made with an external power supply.

The M2 Pro is likely not worse a TDP hurdle than the 2018 era Intel CPU that is in there now ( 65W nominal to 90+W burst ) . The chassis and fan were designed for desktop Intel chip from 4 years ago. If fit inside of that then , things will be just fine. Worked before, it will work now. ( nominal M1 Pro is around 40W and peak consumption in roughly the 69W range. M2 Pro isn't likely to show a huge jump at nominal and the peak probably won't stretch more than 10W up , if that far. )

The 14" chassis is thinner but it also has two fans. The Mini's single fan having to force air through a 90 degree turn doesn't help much either. The laptop chassis is likely quieter over a wider operating range ( two fans spinning slower than just one, incrementally larger fan ). If wanted to make the Mini quieter then yes could take the power supply out. But for service rack placements that is only a space consumption 'ballon squeeze'. Now have bigger power cabling outside. ( minor upside is that power supply replacement is easier/faster ).



Will Apple release such a beast? I dunno, but from a technical point of view this is a low hanging fruit for them, easy to do.

There were rumors that Apple was trying to "paint themselves into a corner" with the Mini update. They were testing concept of thinner Mini chassis. That likely would 'blow up' the M2 Pro, but make the "thinnest design" politburo happier selling just M2's.

New rumors are that they are keeping the classic Mini chassis for the M2 Mini. If so , that opens the door for further this "easy to do" solution. (can share the same 'shell'/power supply/etc. and just have different backplates and main logicboards (and maybe a different paint job) . That gets the Mini Pro better economies of scale on the non SoC component costs. Should allow Apple to hold the line on the Mini price also (no pass through on inflation cost if getting bill of materials cheaper. ) ) .
 
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Kimmo

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2011
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Apple Silicon-based Mac Pro - also HAS to be announced to keep with their 2-year transition
I hope you're right, but after waiting to see this version of the Mac Pro since 2013 I guess I can be patient a little while longer. :)

2013? Yes. When the 6,1 Mac Pro was announced I knew it wasn't for me. I wasn't alone, and along with many 5,1 owners I upgraded my machine (storage, memory and GPU) and soldiered on.

In 2017, Apple acknowledged that the reasons for eschewing the 6,1 were pretty good after all and told us they were working on something to make things right.

When the 2019 Mac Pro was announced I loved it and started to save my pennies to buy one.

Unfortunately, Apple announced the transition to Apple Silicon just six months after the 7,1 became available. That raised a host of issues about support for the 2019 Intel model going forward, so I called another time out and did a few more upgrades on my 5,1.

"Announce" and "replace" are not necessarily the same thing.


Apple has painted themselves into a corner with that "only one more to go, talk about that later" tease back in March. At some point Apple is going to have to talk about it later. Not necessarily ship but at least 'talk'.

Pretty good chance it is a "sneak peak" for the Mac Pro. We'll show you this now but it will be 4-8 months before you can actually order one. The Mac Pro 2019 would not be replaced by that, because the new one isn't shipping for a decently long time. But folks would know about the upcoming "orderly" transition between old and 'new' Mac Pro.


Note also though Apple gave themselves a huge 'out' with that "only one more to go" quip. That the Mini was already "transitioned" . So in the 'done' column. If they don't replace the last Intel Mini in 2022 , it doesn't matter because the Mini was already done. Lame? Yes. But it is a viable "dog ate my homework" excuse.


[ No , the Mac Studio isn't a viable replacement for Mini in dense computation rack contexts. It is 3x as big and not 3x as much computation (on CPU ) side. So it is a backslide too. What is missing a Mx Pro in the current classic Mini chassis. Period. ]





The M2 Mini isn't the problematical transition device. The M2 is still too much of backslide off the Intel Mini to be a viable replacement. The max RAM went up to 24GB . Which is still less than half of what the Intel Mini does. Half!! Anyone who has a workload RAM footprint of 32GB the M2 is still a *fail*. It is still a crippled backslide on video out also.

What is missing is a M2 Pro Mini. Probably still somewhat of a backslide from the old Intel 64GB, but not a comical less than half backslide. And the video out is not crippled. And the TB port count isn't kneecapped.

Yes no M2 Mini in 2022 would be lame excuse for product management, but that isn't an egg-on-the face transition blown moment. "Going to transition to Apple Silicon in about two years" promise absolutely squat about the pace of future Apple Silcon SoCs. Lots of folks presumed they were going to get iPhone A-series frequency updates, but Apple blew that out of the water last Fall. Only self delusion if still laboring under that now at this point.





If Apple announces in October that it is coming in "Spring 2023" and this is what it looks like and "let's watch a demo of it working", then that is probably good enough. Yeah technically they didn't finish in 2022 , but in the same two year period there was a world wide pandemic. That a smaller subset came in a Quarter or so late is not really the end of the world.

The much bigger hole that Apple would dig would be to say nothing. It would turn into a crisis like back in 2017 when lots of chatter was building that Apple was going to maybe hit 2,000 days of no Mac Pro updates. WTF are they doing? And then got the "we are going to do something" pow-wow meeting in April 2017. Same thing here. They would "have to" come out and do some "dog ate my homework" song and dance about how it was just going to take much longer than they thought. ( and if it is more than 6 months out that would be all you get. ). Most folks are going to interpret that "Later" comment in March 2022 to be "later in 2022". ( there was already a bunch of folks that whipped themselves into a frenzy that 'later' was WWDC 2022... which was not really well grounded. But again adds to their failed expectation management communication impact. )


Around April 2018 , Apple did a session where they said "not this year". That put folks off of trying to impact wild stuff detached from reality ( new MP at WWDC 2018 ). They would need to come back this Fall with something like "Much later ... as in sometime in 2023".

Personally I think they had queued up exactly what they had done in 2013 and 2019. Wanted to do sneak peak in June ( WWDC 2022). "stuff happened" and things slid into 2023. Not extremely far into 2023, but enough so that if they needed to stick to the "say nothing before a six month lead time" rule, that they had to move the "sneak peak" to Fall 2022. Decent chance October. If there is something seriously wrong then maybe Dec 2022 (and sliding much , much deeper into 2023). If very badly wrong then "recast it with a very broad 2023.

Very good chance the next Mac Pro is not going to make all current Mac Pro customers happy. Some are going to have a negative reaction whenever they do the announcement. If the new one is pretty far off the MP 2019 in slot count , 3rd party GPU support , ability to "raw iron" boot Widows , DIMM slots , etc then selling the current MP longer is, in the end, going to make those folks happier over the interim. Trying to rush a new Mac Pro to market when it isn't ready is only goes a bigger dust up with that customer base. For the narrower subset of folks they are targeting though it needs to be rock solid offering. There is already going to be a group of angry folks. Don't want to feed more folks to the mob that has going to gather around the product.
Regarding the timing issue, I think this is spot on.

If Apple goes quiet on the Mac Pro after all the history and recent hints, that would be a mistake.

I have a hard time figuring out who the Mac Pro is for at this point.

It used to be that you bought it because you wanted to cram in tons of RAM, needed full blown discrete GPUs, expandability and higher performancance, something that no other Apple product offered. There was always this huge gap for people who didn't need server grade motherboards, terabytes of RAM etc but needed something better than a Mac Mini but less than a Mac Pro. The iMac was not it. So they reluctantly bought the Mac Pros.

Now the Mac Studio is finally filling that gap so the Mac Pro to me sounds even more of a niche audience product. Since it cannot accept GPUs from AMD or Nvidia, RAM is unlikely to be replaceable then what is left?
You might be right about severe upgradability limitations in the Apple Silicon Mac Pro, but I hope you're wrong.

At this point I'm just waiting to see. Johny Srouji strikes me as one smart guy and I hope he surprises us in a good way.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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I have a hard time figuring out who the Mac Pro is for at this point.

It used to be that you bought it because you wanted to cram in tons of RAM, needed full blown discrete GPUs, expandability and higher performancance, something that no other Apple product offered. There was always this huge gap for people who didn't need server grade motherboards, terabytes of RAM etc but needed something better than a Mac Mini but less than a Mac Pro. The iMac was not it. So they reluctantly bought the Mac Pros.

Now the Mac Studio is finally filling that gap so the Mac Pro to me sounds even more of a niche audience product. Since it cannot accept GPUs from AMD or Nvidia, RAM is unlikely to be replaceable then what is left?
There are two ways they can easily distinguish it from the Studio:
1) PCIe expansions slots. The 2019 MacPro has eight of these, and they are very popular among users.
2) Expandable internal SSD. The Studio's SSD is not soldered, but isn't expandable. They could allow that in the AS Mac Pro.

The RAM and GPU will be much trickier, and I have no idea what they'll do for those; hopefully they have some interesting solutions in mind.
 
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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
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I don't know what use PCI-e slots would be for an Apple Silicon Mac... Since there are no drivers for video cards, what will people plug in to the slots?
The Afterburner card is also useless now, since an even more powerful accelerator is baked into the SoC.
 
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theorist9

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May 28, 2015
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I don't know what use PCI-e slots would be for an Apple Silicon Mac... Since there are no drivers for video cards, what will people plug in to the slots?
All sorts of stuff:

1663108809817.png


1663108813160.png


Source: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210408

Example:

1663108838624.png

Source:
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
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theorist9

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May 28, 2015
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They work on Apple Silicon Macs?

Video cards in eGPU enclosures don't work because Intel macOS drivers don't work with them. I doubt there will be working drivers for these even more obscure cards.

With the eGPU example, you've picked a type external device specifically known not to work with AS Macs, because of the nature of AS architecture, so I wouldn't generalize that to all the others listed, including RAID cards, audio cards, etc. With the audio cards, for instance, I'd imagine it's just a matter of the 3rd parties updating their drivers to be compatible with AS.

PCIe expansion is an important part of the benefit afforded by the the 2019 Mac Pro, and Apple surely understands this. So my conjecture is that Apple is working with PCIe card mfrs. to ensure there will be a selection of AS-compatible cards when they release the AS Mac Pro. Otherwise, that removes one of the key features that would distinguish the Mac Pro from the Studio.
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
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New York City, NY
With the eGPU example, you've picked a type external device specifically known not to work with AS Macs, because of the nature of AS architecture, so I wouldn't generalize that to all the others listed, including RAID cards, audio cards, etc. With the audio cards, for instance, I'd imagine it's just a matter of the 3rd parties updating their drivers to be compatible with AS.

PCIe expansion is an important part of the benefit afforded by the the 2019 Mac Pro, and Apple surely understands this. So my conjecture is that Apple is working with PCIe card mfrs. to ensure there will be a selection of AS-compatible cards when they release the AS Mac Pro. Otherwise, that removes one of the key features that would distinguish the Mac Pro from the Studio.

No. I picked eGPU because I never saw anyone try any other PCI-e cards with Apple Silicon Macs.

I know the benefits of PCI-e on Intel based Macs but I don't know what use they are for Apple Silicon Macs if there are no drivers.

From December 2013 until December 2019, Apple did not sell any Macs with PCI-e slots.
 
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theorist9

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May 28, 2015
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No. I picked eGPU because I never saw anyone try any other PCI-e cards with Apple Silicon Macs.
I wasn't commenting on your motivation for mentioning eGPU cards, I was commenting on their known inability to work with AS. Thus my statement remains accurate: "you've picked a type external device specifically known not to work with AS Macs, because of the nature of AS architecture." (irrespective of your reasons)

I know the benefits of PCI-e on Intel based Macs but I don't know what use they are for Apple Silicon Macs if there are no drivers.
Agreed, and I addressed that here:

PCIe expansion is an important part of the benefit afforded by the the 2019 Mac Pro, and Apple surely understands this. So my conjecture is that Apple is working with PCIe card mfrs. to ensure there will be a selection of AS-compatible cards when they release the AS Mac Pro. Otherwise, that removes one of the key features that would distinguish the Mac Pro from the Studio.

From December 2013 until December 2019, Apple did not sell any Macs with PCI-e slots.
Yes, and Apple themselves admitted they made a mistake in designing a Mac Pro that didn't have that modularity/expandability, which is why they corrected it with the 2019 Mac Pro. I don't know what Apple will do, but I'll be surprised if they go backwards on this by either not offering PCIe or something that provides equivalent expandability.
 

pastrychef

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Sep 15, 2006
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I wasn't commenting on your motivation for mentioning eGPU cards, I was commenting on their known inability to work with AS. Thus my statement remains accurate: "you've picked a type external device specifically known not to work with AS Macs, because of the nature of AS architecture." (irrespective of your reasons)


Agreed, and I addressed that here:




Yes, and Apple themselves admitted they made a mistake in designing a Mac Pro that didn't have that modularity/expandability, which is why they corrected it with the 2019 Mac Pro. I don't know what Apple will do, but I'll be surprised if they go backwards on this by either not offering PCIe or something that provides equivalent expandability.

Assuming that the next Mac Pro has similar pricing as the current MacPro7,1, it'll probably be a pretty low volume product in terms of sales. Assuming further that only a fraction of those who buy the Mac Pro will want to load it up with all manner of PCI-e cards, it's going to be a very small niche market for such cards. I don't know how much effort Apple would put in to working with 3rd parties to develop drivers.

In my opinion, Apple's modus operandi has always been working towards building "closed boxes" where nothing is upgradable after purchase. PCI-e slots are the antithesis of this. The current MacPro7,1 was made to appease "pros" who demanded more and Apple Silicon Macs were not ready yet. They even went out of their way to make the Afterburner card for these users. Now, even those are obsolete and not needed. There has never been a better opportunity for Apple to completely kill off PCI-e slots for Macs.
 

theorist9

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Assuming that the next Mac Pro has similar pricing as the current MacPro7,1, it'll probably be a pretty low volume product in terms of sales. Assuming further that only a fraction of those who buy the Mac Pro will want to load it up with all manner of PCI-e cards, it's going to be a very small niche market for such cards. I don't know how much effort Apple would put in to working with 3rd parties to develop drivers.

In my opinion, Apple's modus operandi has always been working towards building "closed boxes" where nothing is upgradable after purchase. PCI-e slots are the antithesis of this. The current MacPro7,1 was made to appease "pros" who demanded more and Apple Silicon Macs were not ready yet. They even went out of their way to make the Afterburner card for these users. Now, even those are obsolete and not needed. There has never been a better opportunity for Apple to completely kill off PCI-e slots for Macs.
Let's revisit this when the AS Mac Pro is released and we can see what they do.
 

Kimmo

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2011
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In my opinion, Apple's modus operandi has always been working towards building "closed boxes" where nothing is upgradable after purchase. PCI-e slots are the antithesis of this. The current MacPro7,1 was made to appease "pros" who demanded more and Apple Silicon Macs were not ready yet. They even went out of their way to make the Afterburner card for these users. Now, even those are obsolete and not needed. There has never been a better opportunity for Apple to completely kill off PCI-e slots for Macs.
Looking at the Mac Pro product line, I think it's fair to say that Apple's modus operandi has been a mixed bag.

Interestingly, the successful products have been open boxes. The product that missed the mark (the 6,1) did so, in large part, because it was a closed box. Apple acknowledged this in 2017.

You might be right, and the closed system fever may have infected Apple again. It wouldn't be the first time.

But, if Apple models its new Mac Pro on the closed box failure that was the 6,1 (instead of the successful products in the Mac Pro lineage) that will be highly ironic, and highly disappointing.
 
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pastrychef

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Looking at the Mac Pro product line, I think it's fair to say that Apple's modus operandi has been a mixed bag.

Interestingly, the successful products have been open boxes. The product that missed the mark (the 6,1) did so, in large part, because it was a closed box. Apple acknowledged this in 2017.

You might be right, and the closed system fever may have infected Apple again. It wouldn't be the first time.

But, if Apple models its new Mac Pro on the closed box failure that was the 6,1 (instead of the successful products in the Mac Pro lineage) that will be highly ironic, and highly disappointing.

Well, even if they put PCI-e slots in the next Mac Pro, what will they be good for? Without drivers for anything, they are useless, so why put them in?
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
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Well, even if they put PCI-e slots in the next Mac Pro, what will they be good for? Without drivers for anything, they are useless, so why put them in?
Did Apple say drivers can’t be made for external hardware on Apple silicon Macs?
 

kasakka

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Oct 25, 2008
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Did Apple say drivers can’t be made for external hardware on Apple silicon Macs?
Of course not but most likely the drivers made for Intel Macs would not work on AS Macs and then Apple would have to go out of their way to collaborate with various vendors to get them to make new drivers in anticipation of an AS Mac Pro. Maybe that is exactly what they have done but I still find it a hard sell for just PCIe expandability and more flexible internal storage.

I could see Apple spinning it into another "server" Mac that goes into a rack or something. I could see there being power usage benefits in that sector that might make it more worth it than having it sitting under a desk.
 

galad

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2022
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Every Mac can already use PCI-e cards via Thunderbolt. Hardware vendors don't need to wait for a Mac Pro with internal slots to test their hardware.
GPU are a special case, but everything else can work and can be tested already.
 

pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
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Every Mac can already use PCI-e cards via Thunderbolt. Hardware vendors don't need to wait for a Mac Pro with internal slots to test their hardware.
GPU are a special case, but everything else can work and can be tested already.

True.

Companies can also just make and sell Thunderbolt devices (which every single Apple Silicon Mac has) instead of PCI-e cards which only the Mac Pro may have.
 

Bodhitree

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Apr 5, 2021
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Well, even if they put PCI-e slots in the next Mac Pro, what will they be good for? Without drivers for anything, they are useless, so why put them in?

The whole point of expandability is to be able to use a variety of expansion cards, and you’re right that without ARM drivers they won’t be able to be used even if the hardware is compatible. This is one of the pain points of moving a whole ecosystem to a new architecture.

Perhaps Rosetta 2 might ease some of the pain — you’d at least be able to run x86-64 code, but it seems unlikely to me that you would be able to extend that to communicating with the PCI-e bus in a new architecture.

It will be interesting to see what Apple choose to do with the Mac Pro.
 
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