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I didn't mean instead of thermal paste, I meant to protect pre-applied thermal paste, so installation for factory line workers is as simple as; remove protective layer, screw into place. Likewise for repair shops and tinkerers, except that they'd have to remove any existing paste from the heatsink first.
oh.. right. i new what you meant.. sort of like a bandaid which has ointment pre applied..

And so is everyone else that makes CPU and GPU coolers, liquid cooling systems etc. These all use thermal paste to ensure the best possible contact; assuming that Apple has developed a way to avoid this is just a leap too far at this point as there's no evidence to support it yet, and the overwhelming trend suggests they'll use thermal paste just like everybody else. There really is no reason to keep going in circles on that issue:
  • Does everyone else use thermal paste? Yes.
  • Is there any evidence supporting the claim that Apple doesn't need to do the same? No.

nah.. everyone else doesn't currently use paste all the time.. for instance, aiden was talking about dell's 1time use thermal pads a couple weeks ago:
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/18406465/


There are two flaws with this line of thinking:
  • Apple doesn't want end users doing anything like this at all;

  • i didn't necessarily mean 'people' as end users only.. i meant all people including repair techs.. just seems like a bad idea to have anyone messing with thermal paste on a vertical element.. not to mention the cleaning compound which will also need to be used in the case of servicing a gpu/cpu with thermal paste on there.. (even worse in the case of a cpu as it's deeper inside the computer)


    I don't think anyone is saying that they don't want thermal paste replaced if it can be; if something better becomes available I'd expect the humble paste's days to be numbered. But so far there is zero evidence to suggest that Apple has developed such a technique. Not saying it's not possible either, but right now it's highly unlikely; if we start assuming such things then we might as well not be discussing the new Mac Pro at all, as it could just as easily be using a solid gold PSU, or custom Xeon chips that deliver more PCIe lines than stock Intel ones.

    it's not just taking a wild stab at it and saying 'i bet no thermal paste because apple are wizards' (or whatever)

    there's obviously a secondary plate of material in between the gpu/cpu and the thermal core.. you can either ignore it and claim 'there's no evidence of the nmp etetc' or do a little research to try to figure out what it is..

    it appears to be a graphite heat spreader.. google it


    there are lots of pdfs and research papers etc available through that search as well as evidence of large corps who already have graphite spreaders and/or films in their products.. such as panosonic:
    http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/15/panasonic-make-a-10-micron-thick-carbon-phone-heatsink/

    intel research:
    http://qats.com/cms/2010/05/03/inte...n-ats-thermal-management-technology-analysis/


    i won't post all related links but here's a telling video:



    http://www.camnano.com


    dunno, there's a huge difference between the statements "nobody else is doing such&such" and "i don't know of anybody else doing such&such" ..i mean, have you even looked?


    That happened because the thread had devolved into nothing but a circular back and forth of you saying "I assume X" and other people pointing out the assumption is too flimsy to bother discussing, and instead of it just being dropped to move on, it just went round and round, like what is happening now.
    personally, i think it happens because of other reasonings but i digress..


    In the case of this thread this arguing is drawing us too far off topic; the discussion is supposed to be about whether Apple has gone too far by adding two professional GPUs as standard when many users would be fine with more modest consumer options.
    oh.. right.. you mean like every other thread here? it's a public internet forum.. things happen - topics change.. i didn't change it. the dude posting 'you can't replace gpus' changed it.. not a big deal.

    Serviceability has nothing to do with that discussion, as it'd be foolish to by a new Mac Pro with workstation GPUs with a view to swapping them for something cheap but incrementally better, as it just wouldn't make economic sense for a third party to offer the parts, and Apple is very unlikely to do it.
    if it weren't for the fact that 3rd party manufactures already sell plenty of apple parts and profit off them.. i'd tend to believe you.

    It may be possible to buy D300's or D500's now with a view to upgrading to one of the better GPU pairs in future via parts sites, but that is also something of a stretch at the moment as we don't know if other parts may require changing as well, such as the PSU since 460W seems a bit too low for a pair of W9000's plus a 130W CPU.
    i just wonder how much of a 1000w psu's energy gets translated directly to heat (waste).. how much of it sits idle.. and how much of it's simply an overrating.. anybody else know?
 
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if it weren't for the fact that 3rd party manufactures already sell plenty of apple parts and profit off them.. i'd tend to believe you.
The only example you've given are Lightning products, which have a market of millions of potential buyers which isn't really comparable as these can be produced in volume for profit. 3rd party manufacturers make SSD blades for Mac laptops and iMacs because they're relatively common Macs, even so these products aren't exactly inexpensive, as the profit margins are a lot lower than selling to the iOS crowd.

But the Mac Pro is a different beast; the SSD may well get 3rd party manufacturers, especially if it turns out to be the same connection used in other future macs, and because it may be possible to manufacture it the same basic way as for laptop blades, just with the different connector.

But the GPUs? The number of extra GPUs produced with Mac compatibility for the workstation Mac Pros is tiny, and many people in fact rely on regular PC cards with some kind of known compatibility, or that can be flashed to add compatibility. But at least with the traditional workstation Mac Pros we're talking about GPUs that are fundamentally the same as their PC counterparts, usually just with altered output ports and/or Mac specific drivers/firmware, i.e - comparatively easy to change pieces, which makes them affordable to produce (even so, Mac specific GPUs have always costed more).

For the new Mac Pro it's a fully custom graphics card form factor, with custom cooling and a custom connector. That's a massive barrier to entry for a company to leap across before they can even consider producing a card for the new Mac Pro. And what products do you envision? Workstation class GPUs might be able to fund development since they typically have huge markup anyway, but then you'd be looking at multi-thousand dollar upgrade for an already expensive computer, to get an upgrade you could probably get just as easily by buying a new Mac Pro for largely the same cost. Let's face it, the move to all Thunderbolt makes it a lot more clear that Apple wants you buying a new machine, and in fact it'll be easy to do that once you've moved everything to Thunderbolt peripherals anyway.

It just doesn't make economic sense for a 3rd party to invest so much in the development of a custom card for the small audience of Mac Pro enthusiasts that want to upgrade their existing Mac Pro, and it makes little sense for Apple to offer upgrades either. This means it's likely we won't see any possibility of upgrades except by buying the next D-series card up from what you already have, but even that's not necessarily viable except perhaps with a D300 to D500 upgrade.

i just wonder how much of a 1000w psu's energy gets translated directly to heat (waste).. how much of it sits idle.. and how much of it's simply an overrating.. anybody else know?
Sure, but by the same token, how many 460w PSU's can drive two high end GPUs plus a 130w CPU? The stock W9000's have a maximum power draw of 375w; we can shave off some for the reduced clock rate of the D700's, and some more for very aggressive binning, but even with a generous reduction to 200w each, to run two of those you're looking at a severely throttled CPU.

If that's the case I'm not personally bothered, as I don't know many workloads where you need both the GPU(s) and CPU to be maxxed out at the same time, but we don't know if that's what Apple is doing since the tech specs only mention the stock power supply for the basic models; we don't know if build-to-order automatically adds a more powerful PSU or not.

It is in fact one of the many things we don't know, but it's another reason why upgrades may not be easy, and are certainly less likely. Either we have a PSU that limits the maximum performance of the system, in which case upgrades are even further limited to only cards that can be made to run more efficiently within the same power restrictions (unlikely to exist IMO as I don't think we'll see enough improvement on that front, not within the next couple of generations of Mac Pro at least by which point there'll be no reason to produce the card).

Either that or the more powerful configurations come with a more powerful PSU, in which case the cost of an upgrade is enough higher, and the work required to do it even more complex, as we have no evidence of direct access to the PSU.

Anyway, this is just more of the same that got the other thread locked. The long and short of it is that while replacements are definitely possible, upgrades may be possible, but it is far beyond the realm of what can normally be expected of users, and definitely beyond popping a new PCIe card into a workstation Mac Pro both in terms of possible choices (i.e - Apple or nothing) and complexity of installation.
 
The only example you've given are Lightning products, which have a market of millions of potential buyers which isn't really comparable as these can be produced in volume for profit. 3rd party manufacturers make SSD blades for Mac laptops and iMacs because they're relatively common Macs, even so these products aren't exactly inexpensive, as the profit margins are a lot lower than selling to the iOS crowd.

But the Mac Pro is a different beast; the SSD may well get 3rd party manufacturers, especially if it turns out to be the same connection used in other future macs, and because it may be possible to manufacture it the same basic way as for laptop blades, just with the different connector.

But the GPUs? The number of extra GPUs produced with Mac compatibility for the workstation Mac Pros is tiny, and many people in fact rely on regular PC cards with some kind of known compatibility, or that can be flashed to add compatibility. But at least with the traditional workstation Mac Pros we're talking about GPUs that are fundamentally the same as their PC counterparts, usually just with altered output ports and/or Mac specific drivers/firmware, i.e - comparatively easy to change pieces, which makes them affordable to produce (even so, Mac specific GPUs have always costed more).

For the new Mac Pro it's a fully custom graphics card form factor, with custom cooling and a custom connector. That's a massive barrier to entry for a company to leap across before they can even consider producing a card for the new Mac Pro. And what products do you envision? Workstation class GPUs might be able to fund development since they typically have huge markup anyway, but then you'd be looking at multi-thousand dollar upgrade for an already expensive computer, to get an upgrade you could probably get just as easily by buying a new Mac Pro for largely the same cost. Let's face it, the move to all Thunderbolt makes it a lot more clear that Apple wants you buying a new machine, and in fact it'll be easy to do that once you've moved everything to Thunderbolt peripherals anyway.

It just doesn't make economic sense for a 3rd party to invest so much in the development of a custom card for the small audience of Mac Pro enthusiasts that want to upgrade their existing Mac Pro, and it makes little sense for Apple to offer upgrades either. This means it's likely we won't see any possibility of upgrades except by buying the next D-series card up from what you already have, but even that's not necessarily viable except perhaps with a D300 to D500 upgrade.


Sure, but by the same token, how many 460w PSU's can drive two high end GPUs plus a 130w CPU? The stock W9000's have a maximum power draw of 375w; we can shave off some for the reduced clock rate of the D700's, and some more for very aggressive binning, but even with a generous reduction to 200w each, to run two of those you're looking at a severely throttled CPU.

If that's the case I'm not personally bothered, as I don't know many workloads where you need both the GPU(s) and CPU to be maxxed out at the same time, but we don't know if that's what Apple is doing since the tech specs only mention the stock power supply for the basic models; we don't know if build-to-order automatically adds a more powerful PSU or not.

It is in fact one of the many things we don't know, but it's another reason why upgrades may not be easy, and are certainly less likely. Either we have a PSU that limits the maximum performance of the system, in which case upgrades are even further limited to only cards that can be made to run more efficiently within the same power restrictions (unlikely to exist IMO as I don't think we'll see enough improvement on that front, not within the next couple of generations of Mac Pro at least by which point there'll be no reason to produce the card).

Either that or the more powerful configurations come with a more powerful PSU, in which case the cost of an upgrade is enough higher, and the work required to do it even more complex, as we have no evidence of direct access to the PSU.

Anyway, this is just more of the same that got the other thread locked. The long and short of it is that while replacements are definitely possible, upgrades may be possible, but it is far beyond the realm of what can normally be expected of users, and definitely beyond popping a new PCIe card into a workstation Mac Pro both in terms of possible choices (i.e - Apple or nothing) and complexity of installation.

see.. this is one of the reasons why things go in circles.. i thought we were talking about thermal paste.. you made a big post on it then i responded with a big post as well.. i made two quickie comments at the end which weren't about paste and those are what people are responding to??

as if the topic of thermal paste has magically disappeared and it's now shifted back to something i've already wrote my thoughts on a few pages back.

so i can re-address that now if i choose but it's meaningless in the big picture.. so we can keep going on the loop until thermal paste is brought up again and i'll be 'wth, i already detailed out the case a few weeks ago.'

#
 
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I am not aware of BTO options on either of those that allow an 8 or 12 core CPU.

Yeah but chances are if you have a reduced GPU requirement, then you don't need to push as much CPU to match that. Besides, the quad cores in the iMac/Mini aren't exactly pushovers.
 
this is what half the complaints are about already. music engineers (or whatever they are called, idk, people who cant make legit music) etc are being made to pay for $1k of graphics they will never use

aw, shame, is your "real music" threatened by progress?

That boat sailed with the invention of synthesis over half a century ago. Enjoy your vast collection of Nickelback though, someone has to :rolleyes:
 
Yeah but chances are if you have a reduced GPU requirement, then you don't need to push as much CPU to match that. Besides, the quad cores in the iMac/Mini aren't exactly pushovers.

There is also the multi-tasking aspect to go along with the multithreading one. So even if this application I use can only use one core, I might want to use another 7 things that also use only one core. Or you might have something that will heavily use 4 cores, but you want a responsive computer for other simple stuff like maybe safari/Office.
 
nah.. everyone else doesn't currently use paste all the time.. for instance, aiden was talking about dell's 1time use thermal pads a couple weeks ago:
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/18406465/

That was a result of Dell being cheap and using a pad to facilitate manufacturing and repairs as the TDP requirements are not comparable to a server grade CPU. If you're taking the care to build a high-end computer, applying thermal paste is a trivial cost compared to the benefits. No thermal pad can compare to thermal paste, ever. Thermal paste exists to fill microscopic air pockets; it is actually less conductive than direct metal-metal contact. That's why you use only a tiny, tiny amount and spread it extremely thin. The more and thicker it is, the worse its performance will be. Thermal pads are vastly inferior and won't cut it for a desktop processor, let alone those in the nMP.

So yes, actually, everyone else does use thermal paste pretty much all the time.

----------

i didn't necessarily mean 'people' as end users only.. i meant all people including repair techs.. just seems like a bad idea to have anyone messing with thermal paste on a vertical element.. not to mention the cleaning compound which will also need to be used in the case of servicing a gpu/cpu with thermal paste on there.. (even worse in the case of a cpu as it's deeper inside the computer)

Lolwut? This is incredibly easy to do for even those with zero computer building experience given proper instruction. I routinely read threads here of people who have no prior skills taking apart their MacBooks or what have you and re-applying paste following guides like ifixit. Enthusiasts and builders do this so regularly its mindless.

You really think trained repair techs will have any trouble with this at all? As for the "cleaning compound" to remove old paste: rubbing alcohol and a cloth. Ta-da!

----------

Anyway, this is just more of the same that got the other thread locked. The long and short of it is that while replacements are definitely possible, upgrades may be possible, but it is far beyond the realm of what can normally be expected of users, and definitely beyond popping a new PCIe card into a workstation Mac Pro both in terms of possible choices (i.e - Apple or nothing) and complexity of installation.

Forget this guy, he's just trolling us. You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make him drink it.
 
Definitely a conspicuous fist full of name dropping which means nothing but the point being that not all music engineers are wannabe musicians. In fact, many successful "musicians" are actually *****ty musicians. You will not find a successful engineer who is a *****ty engineer.

I am still a code monkey for a living and while I've supported myself completely off music in the past, I am definitely not a successful musician (or engineer).

But, if you buy my album, I will be $6 more successful. :D

...or just listen for free on my soundcloud page...
 
see.. this is one of the reasons why things go in circles.. i thought we were talking about thermal paste.. you made a big post on it then i responded with a big post as well.. i made two quickie comments at the end which weren't about paste and those are what people are responding to??
To put it another way; you keep introducing new assumptions on top of other assumptions.

Besides which, the topic of thermal paste has been covered about as well it possibly can be, and has certainly been covered far more than it should have been; there is simply too much precedent for the use of thermal paste to reasonably assume that anything is being done differently, and even if it is it's not relevant, as it doesn't change the fact that the GPUs in the Mac Pro are unlikely to be properly user-serviceable. It is a far cry from just slapping in a PCIe card into workstation Mac Pros, which were designed to be user upgradeable; any possibility of that in the new Mac Pro is based on too many assumptions right now, so it shouldn't need to be covered as much as it has been.

With this in mind, to say that the new Mac Pro GPUs are not upgradeable is entirely reasonable in the context of this thread. It means that when you buy a new Mac Pro, you buy it with what you need now, or what you think you will need over its lifetime, this is one of the reasons that Apple really needs to be able to offer fairly competitive pricing on the basic models (which they actually are doing*), and with the future in mind a pair of GPUs may actually be a smart move, though it's not going to benefit everyone. Anyone that doesn't have OpenCL or otherwise GPU accelerated software available now or in the near future will be wasting a lot of money on GPUs they don't really need, but for people that do have GPU/OpenCL capable apps now or soon, two GPUs isn't overkill at all, except in the sense that they will make a huge difference to those apps, but even so may not yet be able to be fully utilised.

*To return to pricing, Apple's offering is actually very competitively priced in terms of components, but it depends on how you value the flexibility that you're losing. Though I do sympathise with people who wouldn't have minded an even cheaper GPU option, as I would really like to swap what I have now for the 6-core new Mac Pro, but I'm not sure if I'll really get the most out of the GPUs it includes. Unless OpenCL really takes off soon I'd mostly push them with gaming, and that's certainly not using them to their fully value (though it'd make me feel a bit better about having them ;)).
 
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OP here...

QUOTE]
OP here...

My dear bickering thread children... just keep in mind that in Darfur, refugees fleeing from their machete wielding aggressors have custom Mac Pros built specifically for Darfurians by Apple which have four Quadro K6000 cards installed standard (via extra-dimensional loading so they take up no space).

And why should you feel sorry for them?

Because as they flee from the hasty hoards of psychotic slashers, it is VERY difficult to push their triple 4K display workstations around on casters over rocky terrain, PARTICULARLY if one of their feet has been hacked off.
 
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