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bobdolee

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Feb 18, 2004
8
0
There has been no evidence of degradation of someone's Mac's SSD that renders all this crap about no TRIM support. Even if degradation happens it would take a considerably long time of hard use. People need to stop spreading FUD unless you have concrete evidence of a Mac SSD degrading and in need of TRIM.

Sure filling up the drive could be a confounder in regards to caching and other forms of use slowing down the system, but I have definitely seen the ability to reset my SSD as a plus and restoring peak speeds.

Anandtech has some concrete evidence of the effects of no TRIM. If you want to see real objective graphs. Trust me, I have no incentive to spread FUD. http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300/8

Notice that when TRIM is enabled, it actually helps a great deal.
To be fair though, even an SSD at its worse performance is still going to be faster than a hard drive; so, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Still would you want to have a drive that continually decreased in performance forever? Or would you rather have a way to keep it in its most optimal state?
If you are cool with not having the ability to ever get back to out of the box performance, then enjoy your new computers! No seriously, I wish I could buy one, but I'm still waiting on any definitive way to reflash and/or TRIM the SSD in it. Until then, my Intel X25M is plenty fast.

As far as I remember, according to what I read, Apple's developers were working on TRIM support, but for whatever reason, it hasn't been put into the OS yet. I can only assume 10.7 will have it. I'm too intimidated to email Steve Jobs about it, but I'd fully expect him to respond with something curt like: "not a big deal."
 

HLdan

macrumors 603
Aug 22, 2007
6,383
0
It's not the drive that degrades it's the drive's responsiveness, which has to be fixed then via formatting and re-copying everything. This has been noted. I agre with you that there's a lot of disproportional fud here. But it's real issue that ssds with no trim have to be manually cleaned up to get back the performance after a point.

Sorry I wasn't completely clear, I was referring to the drive's performance degrading. My main concern is this forum creating a disturbance before it even happens. Nobody should feel like they are screwed if they buy a Macbook Air or a Mac that has SSD's shipped from Apple because of no TRIM support. Until there's significant evidence about Macs in general it's nothing but FUD on this forum.
 

Full of Win

macrumors 68030
Nov 22, 2007
2,615
1
Ask Apple
Sorry I wasn't completely clear, I was referring to the drive's performance degrading. My main concern is this forum creating a disturbance before it even happens. Nobody should feel like they are screwed if they buy a Macbook Air or a Mac that has SSD's shipped from Apple because of no TRIM support. Until there's significant evidence it's nothing but FUD on this forum.

Exactly. Here is a little tip, the performance on your magnetic Hard Drive likewise degrades over time. We don't feel screwed over this, nor should we.
 

bouncer1

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2010
258
0
Sorry I wasn't completely clear, I was referring to the drive's performance degrading. My main concern is this forum creating a disturbance before it even happens. Nobody should feel like they are screwed if they buy a Macbook Air or a Mac that has SSD's shipped from Apple because of no TRIM support. Until there's significant evidence it's nothing but FUD on this forum.

For sure, I am completely with you on this one, these forums leave a lot to be desired in how they are moderated in terms of FUD.

As you say it's really important for people to be protected by FUD that causes them unnecessary worry (as if we don't have enough in our lives...).

For example I made that point in the 32 bit (not 64 bit) ilife main article where the where quoting some misinformed geek who was "terribly disappointing" for lack of 64 bits in ilife. Causing unnecessary concern to people here who don't have the time or interest to understand what's really going on. FUD and the way it's propagated on the web, and augmented, and amplified, is probably one of the biggest problems of this age...

Btw I did understand your original post, I was just offering the other perspective.
 

bobdolee

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Feb 18, 2004
8
0
For sure, I am completely with you on this one, these forums leave a lot to be desired in how they are moderated in terms of FUD.

As you say it's really important for people to be protected by FUD that causes them unnecessary worry (as if we don't have enough in our lives...).

For example I made that point in the 32 bit (not 64 bit) ilife main article where the where quoting some misinformed geek who was "terribly disappointing" for lack of 64 bits in ilife. Causing unnecessary concern to people here who don't have the time or interest to understand what's really going on. FUD and the way it's propagated on the web, and augmented, and amplified, is probably one of the biggest problems of this age...

Btw I did understand your original post, I was just offering the other perspective.

Yea... I hope this forum doesn't cause people to worry. I probably am not the best representative sample for SSD usage as I definitely am a power user.

Just to be clear, I assume lack of TRIM to be a nonissue for most of the people who buy the computer. I just wanted to know whether it was addressed in the Air's software, or if I should keep waiting.
 

bouncer1

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2010
258
0
Sure filling up the drive could be a confounder in regards to caching and other forms of use slowing down the system, but I have definitely seen the ability to reset my SSD as a plus and restoring peak speeds.

Anandtech has some concrete evidence of the effects of no TRIM. If you want to see real objective graphs. Trust me, I have no incentive to spread FUD. http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300/8

Notice that when TRIM is enabled, it actually helps a great deal.
To be fair though, even an SSD at its worse performance is still going to be faster than a hard drive; so, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Still would you want to have a drive that continually decreased in performance forever? Or would you rather have a way to keep it in its most optimal state?
If you are cool with not having the ability to ever get back to out of the box performance, then enjoy your new computers! No seriously, I wish I could buy one, but I'm still waiting on any definitive way to reflash and/or TRIM the SSD in it. Until then, my Intel X25M is plenty fast.

As far as I remember, according to what I read, Apple's developers were working on TRIM support, but for whatever reason, it hasn't been put into the OS yet. I can only assume 10.7 will have it. I'm too intimidated to email Steve Jobs about it, but I'd fully expect him to respond with something curt like: "not a big deal."

You are making some good points here.

Don't misquote Steve though.

He's gonna say "not that big a deal". :D

And I mean he's gonna be right. Btw, word to the wise, avoid anandtech.

Besides getting a hefty dose of intel's payroll by the looks of it, they always lose the forest for the trees.

I am not saying there's some good quality stuff over there, there's bound to be some in that whole overanalysis of everything, but that whole geeky overindulgence in detail and failure to see the larger picture can be the source of so much fud.

Btw let's also clarify something else.

Trim ISN'T the established industry standard that some make it out to be. Of course you have to have trim in windows when anyone can put any drive in as a minimum safeguard, but not all drives have the same trim implementations, and not all drives use trim for garbage gathering. There's nothing telling us apple are not implementing some of their own garbage gathering algos in these, and I am sure they have.

Otherwise we'd see huge performance degradations in things as the ipad and the iphone, yet we don't. So I am sure they are taking care of this to some extent behind the scenes. As soon as trim solidifies as a protocol they are going to support that too.

Let's keep things into perspective guys. Let's not get anal about such things. And I am saying this because I myself have the tendency to get that way, worked up, about minor issues of performance. And I regret all the time spent researching and tweaking later on, because rarely do they really matter. Sometimes they do, but not often.
 

joelypolly

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2003
521
249
Bay Area
You can always run "Erase Free Space" in disk util to zero all data. Also most new SSD controllers come with some sort of garbage collection these days.
 

idea_hamster

macrumors 65816
Jul 11, 2003
1,096
1
NYC, or thereabouts
You can always run "Erase Free Space" in disk util to zero all data.

FYI, that's the worst thing you can do for your SSD's performance.

The whole problem associated with TRIM/GC is the difference between writing data to an empty address (neither 1 nor 0) and writing to an previously written address (either 1 or 0). In the first instance, the datum just gets written; in the second, the controller must first erase the address and then write.

By zeroing your drive, you fill all the fast, unwritten locations with zeros.


There's nothing telling us apple are not implementing some of their own garbage gathering algos in these, and I am sure they have.

That's sort of the point of the thread -- there is nothing telling us that Apple is implementing GC either, so we are discussing it. While you may sure they have, I'm not seeing what you base that on.

Believe me -- I'd be very pleased to hear that this is the case. Then Apple could restart their claim that their SSDs make their computers faster as well as more reliable. Until they do that, I'm skeptical.
 

admanimal

macrumors 68040
Apr 22, 2005
3,531
2
The Anandtech review also points out that the performance of the new MBA SSDs after all of the bits have been set is one of the best for those without TRIM support.
 

kustardking

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2008
152
1
New York
According to this OSX doesn't need TRIM anyway...

Did you read the end of the article? It qualifies "doesn't need TRIM" by saying you don't need it because the 2008 flash technology in the Air is **seriously deficient** on the performance front compared to current tech. It's SO bad that it's maximum speed is the same as the dying nadir of non-gc/TRIM flash storage. So, people who make few demands of their computers will be just fine with the performance. However, for those asking much of their devices, understanding the performance parameters of each component is important.

So what that article actually confirms is that the flash in the Air is 'tarded. TRIM or not, it is the 100 IQ of flash. No highs, no lows, just plodding performance. Of COURSE it will feel more responsive than an HD, but is that why this thread was started? Anyone responding with "OS X doesn't need TRIM" or "it'll be better than an HD" or "I'm sure Apple is doing gc" needs to get off the Kool-Aid and consider that this thread was started to get FACTS, not assurances. Leave assurances to the marketing folks, they're paid to do it. We need facts to make smart decisions for our needs.

And this is the unfortunate intersection between tech and design. Apple has great industrial design, but is providing less and less for the prosumer/enthusiast. Does the term "enthusiast" make you angry? Then you should not be contributing to this thread. Glossy displays? Can't alter your device after purchase? You know what has those qualities? TVs. Apple is going 100% consumer, and as a creative person who also loves technology and esthetics, I'm bummed.

On that note, a company called Photofast is going to start selling after-market flash for the Air...

http://liliputing.com/2010/10/photofast-offers-ssd-upgrades-for-the-new-macbook-air.html

Now, at $1000 entry point for the Air, I do wish someone would make SLC flash. For my purposes, which is the same as for anyone needing consistent high speed random read/write, a $500-$1000 bump to SLC is a no-brainer.
 

NickFalk

macrumors 6502
Jun 9, 2004
347
1
Did you read the end of the article? It qualifies "doesn't need TRIM" by saying you don't need it because the 2008 flash technology in the Air is **seriously deficient** on the performance front compared to current tech. It's SO bad that it's maximum speed is the same as the dying nadir of non-gc/TRIM flash storage. So, people who make few demands of their computers will be just fine with the performance. However, for those asking much of their devices, understanding the performance parameters of each component is important.
Yes I did read the whole thing. As for people "asking much of their devices" they would probably not be in the market for an ultra portable Core2Duo machine anyway.

I got the 11'' myself and my subjective view is that it is at least vastly faster with read/write than my Mac Pro's 2x7200 RPM RAID. Now, it might very well be that other devices are even faster, but as most apps launch at the first bounce I can't really see the practical benefits in most cases. (Especially ones where the other "limitations" of these machines wouldn't be more of a problem anyway).
 

kustardking

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2008
152
1
New York
Yes I did read the whole thing. As for people "asking much of their devices" they would probably not be in the market for an ultra portable Core2Duo machine anyway.

I got the 11'' myself and my subjective view is that it is at least vastly faster with read/write than my Mac Pro's 2x7200 RPM RAID. Now, it might very well be that other devices are even faster, but as most apps launch at the first bounce I can't really see the practical benefits in most cases. (Especially ones where the other "limitations" of these machines wouldn't be more of a problem anyway).

OK, but note that your subjective view is based on maybe a week's experience. And, what are you doing on it?

I definitely didn't make one of my biggest disappointments clear: Apple is the BEST in industrial design for computers, but is becoming TERRIBLE in providing for the enthusiast (who wants that awesome design **as much** as wanting customizable performance).

Since you are putting out there some specs on your system, I'll also provide that I write mobile apps, use a desktop with an i7 920 and two X25E 64GB drives in RAID 0 for my OS, and two in RAID 0 for my work partition. This makes for not bothersomely long compiles. I use in conjunction a Lenovo X201T with an i7 640LM, X25E 64GB, and 8GB RAM that runs my test Ubuntu in VMWare, but also serves as a portable dev/test environment with CS5 when I can't stand being at my desk.

It is at those times of "travel" that I, subjectively AND objectively, notice that I am running in the slow lane. Now it is just barely tolerable. Not only because of the speed, but because the Thinkpad is fugly! As laptops go, it's not that bad, but I would really really really like to have an Air. *IF* I could get the Air running SLC (because of VMWare and scratch disks), I would be willing to tolerate a C2D. I hope Apple can get discrete graphics with the i-series CPUs for the next Air rev.

Before you posted that article, I would have said having gc/TRIM is sufficient, but now it's a no-go until Apple or otherwise can provide better flash storage. No access to good design - THAT's what makes me sad.
 

NickFalk

macrumors 6502
Jun 9, 2004
347
1
@Kustardking

You're of course quite right that I've only used the Air for a very limited time. I have been using it mainly for iPhone development and unlike my aging regular Macbook Core2Duo 2.4 this machine is small enough to use on the tube. I have not tried to push it to its limits in any sense, it runs Photoshop Elements just fine but I haven't installed Logic on it (which I guess would be pushing it).

To me this is in many ways the best computer I've had, mostly due to the small size and it being my first flash-memory machine.

I think I see where you're coming from but while I can see you have reasons for complaining about Apple it seems obvious that the kind of performance you're requesting can't really fit into an Air-size form factor... just yet.

Haven't Apple always been about benefits rather than specifications?
 

kustardking

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2008
152
1
New York
@Kustardking

You're of course quite right that I've only used the Air for a very limited time. I have been using it mainly for iPhone development and unlike my aging regular Macbook Core2Duo 2.4 this machine is small enough to use on the tube. I have not tried to push it to its limits in any sense, it runs Photoshop Elements just fine but I haven't installed Logic on it (which I guess would be pushing it).

To me this is in many ways the best computer I've had, mostly due to the small size and it being my first flash-memory machine.

I think I see where you're coming from but while I can see you have reasons for complaining about Apple it seems obvious that the kind of performance you're requesting can't really fit into an Air-size form factor... just yet.

Haven't Apple always been about benefits rather than specifications?

Yes, but in the past they have a least had a window ajar somewhere that let you do what "needed" to be done. For example, I haven't bought a new Macbook Pro since it lost the Expresscard slot. I had an Expresscard-to-external-full-sized-PCIE housing, from which I ran a RAID card. That made it a very usable desktop replacement. Yes, they kept the slot in the 17" machine, but that sucker is WAY big.

Now, forgive me for this association, but take this wikipedia excerpt on the "To Serve Man" episode from the Twilight Zone, and replace Kanamit with Apple, and the flying saucer as the Macbook Air. Are there any other Mr. Chambers in the room?...

Synopsis

The Kanamits, a race of aliens, land on Earth and promise to be helpful to the cause of humanity. Initially wary of the intentions of such a highly-advanced race, even the most skeptical humans are convinced when their code-breakers begin to translate one of the Kanamit books with the seemingly innocuous title, To Serve Man. The code-breaker staff is led by Mr. Michael Chambers.

Sharing their advanced technology, the aliens are quickly able to solve all of Earth's greatest woes, eradicating hunger, disease, and the need for warfare. They even morph deserts into big blooming fields. Soon, humans are volunteering for trips to the Kanamit's home planet, which is supposedly a paradise.

Everything takes a turn for the worse, however, when Pat, a code-breaker, discovers the Kanamits' true intentions. She shouts the agonized warning to Chambers, who is about to climb the Kanamit spaceship's boarding stairs: "Mr. Chambers, don't get on that ship! The book... To Serve Man. It... it's a cookbook!" Chambers tries to get away from the spaceship, but a Kanamit pushes him into it, and it promptly takes off for the aliens' home planet.

In the end, Mr. Chambers (who's been narrating the story in flashback) is aboard the Kanamit spaceship, heading for their planet and eventual consumption. The book, To Serve Man, is actually a cookbook, and all the aliens' gifts were subtle methods of causing humans to be put in peak condition, gain weight and become complacent, much like fattening pigs, chickens, or cows before they're shipped to a slaughterhouse. Chambers says to the audience, "How about you? You still on Earth, or on the ship with me? Really doesn't make very much difference, because sooner or later, we'll all of us be on the menu...all of us." The episode closes on him as he finally breaks his hunger strike.
 

FuNGi

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2010
1,122
33
California
Soylant green is Microsoft

@Kustardking

WTF are you alluding to in your twilight quote exactly? Are the Airs going to eat us? Or can they just not do what you need with your PCIE RAID nightmare? Also Jobs/Kanamit King isn't "pushing" anybody onto the AIR. He's not promising an express slot where there is none after all.
 

bouncer1

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2010
258
0
@Kustardking

WTF are you alluding to in your twilight quote exactly? Are the Airs going to eat us? Or can they just not do what you need with your PCIE RAID nightmare? Also Jobs/Kanamit King isn't "pushing" anybody onto the AIR. He's not promising an express slot where there is none after all.

I wish I were smoking what he is smoking, some pretty powerful stuff...
 

kustardking

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2008
152
1
New York
har har - you guys are too serious, too literal, or rather probably just of the Kool-Aid persuasion. I'm saying that it is unfortunate that Apple is the ONLY, or at least by a wide margin the top, producer of good looking computer technology. I lament this because I like good looking, high quality things while at the same time having them "my" way. It's the difference between buying a "size X" suit at Barneys, or having one tailored in Savile Row. The sad part is that there is NO Savile Row in the tech world - the only place to turn is to Apple.

Nightmares are a part of life. If you deny them, you're probably a republican. Anyway, you two are funny. I am sure you are not creative folks. Or, if you allege to be, you are illustrators and not artists. Your maximum IQs are, respectively, 120 and 115.
 

runnin17

macrumors member
Dec 9, 2008
75
0
@kustardking

You obviously are in the super-uber-crazy minority when it comes to your expectations about what Apple can and cannot fit into their Air line. They have been moving away from catering to the enthusiast market for at least the past 4 years.

You are a poweruser and yet you are complaining that you want a super top spec laptop in an Air form factor. Sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

I cannot imagine that Apple didn't use a Sandforce based SSD in their most recent Air's given the benchmark speeds. If this is the case, it is very likely that the SSD will have garbage collection built into their firmware like pretty much every Sandforce based SSD.

If this is such a big problem for you that you want to sit for hours on this thread and spread your odd opinion then you could at least spend that time trying to contact Apple and see if they would provide you with the information. Good luck with the aliens :eek:
 

kustardking

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2008
152
1
New York
There it goes again... "very likely" doesn't mean anything. I would love to hear someone state, "it has an XXX." That would suffice.

Also, you didn't read what I want from it. I said the ONLY thing I'd need to be happy with it is performant flash. From my experience, this means SLC or quality parts and active gc. If a 3rd party were to produce it, I would buy the Air, C2D and all, and apply the "patch."

In summary, I would sacrifice it all, except for the flash, in the name of design. I *know* Apple has been shifting the base toward 1) no hassles and 2) planned obsolescence. I think perhaps the "minority" you put me in is less about power user, though obviously for me it is a driving factor, and more about choice. Everyone wants good design, some want choice. Since Apple is the only choice for good design, their choices are your choices. Almost "magical" how that aligns, right?

Anyway, from that article posted by NickFalk, it is apparent that the crux of my "problem" with the Air has already been recognized and addressed by one company, Photofast. To other "problems" new Apple devices will henceforth have, such as fixed RAM and lack of speedy connectivity, I have surrendered. I anxiously await pricing and specs on the Photofast SSD, because I do want an Air.

And good idea, I'll write to Apple (too)
 

aznguyen316

macrumors 68010
Oct 1, 2008
2,001
1
Tampa, FL
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

Just install Windows 7 onto a separate partition, and every few months, format the Mac partition with NTFS, boot into Windows 7, run the TRIM command, then reformat it back to HFS+ and install OS X. Problem solved.

this is what I unfortunately do.. I'm in need of doing this again actually heh
 
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