new MacPro - D700 better under Windows

[PIs]

I already posted earlier that I experienced issues with D700 (on 8 core nMP):
slow viewport at very high polygon count.

I kept searching as I was not happy at all, especially when I found out that iMac's (GTX 780M) viewport performance was way better at high poly count in some 3D applications than the D700

BUT there is hope!
Here is what I found, great test videos using Maya

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/01/two-steps-forward-a-review-of-the-2013-mac-pro/4/

the D700 seems to be actually great but currently it performs WAY better under Windows
Under Windows-bootcamp, at 36million polygon, Maya is still silky smooth, and still greatly usable at 72million. While the same scene under OSX-Maya cannot be used at 36million...

So I think Apple's driver sucks a lot at this point, need URGENT polishing.
If you are a new MacPro owner, please help to get this sorted by sending them feedback, send them this review link etc.
The more people do it, the more they will take it seriously. Just google up "Apple Feedback"

It makes me upset, as I thought the "FirePro" and the price they charged means PRO drivers.
On the other hand it is good that it is not hardware issue, and it is lucky that you can use bootcamp but that's not why you buy a Mac.

 

[ActionableMango]

Sadly it is the normal state of things that the same Mac hardware performs better under Windows, sometimes dramatically so. It has been this way for years and I don't expect it to change any time soon.

 

[Gav Mack]

Sadly it is the normal state of things that the same Mac hardware performs better under Windows, sometimes dramatically so. It has been this way for years and I don't expect it to change any time soon.

The windows driver will improve it more when it's using a FirePro and not a Radeon. Photoshop is always faster in OSX than windows but on my 3,1 I'd say it's faster with 7x64 than mavericks. The nvidia windows drivers in my case stomp all over Apple's cos I'm sure it's down the the GPU.

 

[Anim]

If you are a new MacPro owner, please help to get this sorted by sending them feedback, send them this review link etc.
The more people do it, the more they will take it seriously. Just google up "Apple Feedback"

If you provide links that will make it easier for the lazy versions of us

 

[chfilm]

Done. Apple.com/feedback

----------

Just looked at the arstechnica Video. This is really embarrassing for apple!

 

[Umbongo]

It makes me upset, as I thought the "FirePro" and the price they charged means PRO drivers.
On the other hand it is good that it is not hardware issue, and it is lucky that you can use bootcamp but that's not why you buy a Mac.

Trying not to sound like an ass here, but to me the price they charge meant I didn't expect PRO drivers. The cards are priced like Radeons with Apple markup.

Who is going to take responsibility? AMD aren't getting the money they get from FirePro cards for Windows to make it worth their time and Apple aren't interested in making 3rd party software work. The Maya userbase on Macs is also really small.

I wish anyone trying to get this sorted luck, but as it hasn't happened before even when they charged full price for Quadro cards on the Mac, I don't see you getting anywhere. The only hope is bad PR meaning enough to someone in the Apple/AMD/AutoDesk chain of things, but as no one has said you would get the level of performance you are hoping for I don't see it happening.

 

[haravikk]

Trying not to sound like an ass here, but to me the price they charge meant I didn't expect PRO drivers. The cards are priced like Radeons with Apple markup.

Has anyone tried running the D700's as radeons under Windows to see if the performance becomes similar to how it is under OS X?

I wouldn't expect the same level of tuning and support from Apple, especially at the prices they charge, but I think that to carry the FirePro brand they should do a bit more, particularly for video and 3d as these are two major markets for the Mac Pro.

 

[hugodrax]

The problem is first generation hardware with first generation software.

Now that apple is pushing GPU compute, I suspect apple will optimize the operating system to take advantage of the hardware. Probably when OS X 10.10 is released in 2015.

 

[G4DP]

Shame they have had 18 months to get the software right already then.

 

[haravikk]

Probably when OS X 10.10 is released in 2015.

Aren't they doing yearly OS X releases now? I'd definitely expect some improvements for OpenCL under the next OS X version, hopefully a new API for handling it. Especially cool would be some way to tie it together with Grand Central Dispatch, maybe even do the same with OpenGL. Some kind of unification of regular and GPU computation could make it a lot easier to develop code to really push the new Mac Pro.

I wonder if Apple could take advantage of AMD's HSA features for synchronising with a GPU? It's intended mainly for CPU + GPU stuff, it might work for a pair of GPUs as well, not sure though.

 

[Bonkersbanana]

It's retarded Autodesk, they kept people with this 10 million poly in viewport maximum for years now never testing, i think now they got notified in rather harsh manner about this bug.

There is a lack of serious CGI professionals on Mac OS X, it's all girls who want to do DIsney/Pixar bs with 10 000 poly characters, they never hit serious limits, so there is nobody to report it to obliviously dumb Autodesk. Ever since they purchased all softwares those went south really quick.

OS X drivers are 100% perfectly fine and this issue is not on OSX side but Autodesk, problem is there is only 3 serious apps, and only 1 of them is production one is maya.

Try and compare c4d and modo in OSX vs WIN, c4d can load 100 000 000 easy on OS X.

 

[tuxon86]

The problem is first generation hardware with first generation software.

Now that apple is pushing GPU compute, I suspect apple will optimize the operating system to take advantage of the hardware. Probably when OS X 10.10 is released in 2015.

The D700 is based on a nearly 2 year old hardware...

 

[Anim]

The D700 is based on a nearly 2 year old hardware...

What is your point there? May as well have said a new iMac is based on the last iMac, it doesn't provide anything insightful

 

[phrehdd]

I already posted earlier that I experienced issues with D700 (on 8 core nMP):
slow viewport at very high polygon count.

I kept searching as I was not happy at all, especially when I found out that iMac's (GTX 780M) viewport performance was way better at high poly count in some 3D applications than the D700

BUT there is hope!
Here is what I found, great test videos using Maya

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/01/two-steps-forward-a-review-of-the-2013-mac-pro/4/

the D700 seems to be actually great but currently it performs WAY better under Windows
Under Windows-bootcamp, at 36million polygon, Maya is still silky smooth, and still greatly usable at 72million. While the same scene under OSX-Maya cannot be used at 36million...

So I think Apple's driver sucks a lot at this point, need URGENT polishing.
If you are a new MacPro owner, please help to get this sorted by sending them feedback, send them this review link etc.
The more people do it, the more they will take it seriously. Just google up "Apple Feedback"

It makes me upset, as I thought the "FirePro" and the price they charged means PRO drivers.
On the other hand it is good that it is not hardware issue, and it is lucky that you can use bootcamp but that's not why you buy a Mac.

Well then it is settled - the New Mac (mini) Pro is a great machine for Windows and OSX on the side. I am so glad that Apple is so innovative (cough cough).

Kidding aside, Apple seems to love to cripple OSX and hardware and force fit it into their marketing "eco" system. Another example - load an application under Linux or Windows on a Mac and it can handle HD audio streams. OSX cannot by intentional design handle HD audio streams (most commonly found in blu ray level files).

 

[Anim]

Well then it is settled - the New Mac (mini) Pro is a great machine for Windows and OSX on the side. I am so glad that Apple is so innovative (cough cough).

haha, I think this is one reason why Apple will ramp up their dev on drivers and API's as they won't want people forced into switching to Windows to use the same Apps, it's just barmy.

I guess we want...

1. A version of Crossfire on OSX

2. OSX Drivers that give better performance than the Windows drivers regardless which cross-platform software package is being used.

I assume Apple have the source code already, what are they waiting for?

 

[VirtualRain]

Well then it is settled - the New Mac (mini) Pro is a great machine for Windows and OSX on the side. I am so glad that Apple is so innovative (cough cough).

Kidding aside, Apple seems to love to cripple OSX and hardware and force fit it into their marketing "eco" system. Another example - load an application under Linux or Windows on a Mac and it can handle HD audio streams. OSX cannot by intentional design handle HD audio streams (most commonly found in blu ray level files).

haha, I think this is one reason why Apple will ramp up their dev on drivers and API's as they won't want people forced into switching to Windows to use the same Apps, it's just barmy.

I guess we want...

1. A version of Crossfire on OSX

2. OSX Drivers that give better performance than the Windows drivers regardless which cross-platform software package is being used.

I assume Apple have the source code already, what are they waiting for?

I'm no expert on graphics drivers, but I've been around PC's and Macs long enough to know that the whole graphics architecture is pretty much broken. Both on Windows and therefore by extension... Mac. Windows is far from any panacea for graphics troubles. Windows drivers are so bad that every week there's a new beta and you never know what you're going to get. Microsoft does jack to help, it's all an endless looping mess of new AMD or NVIDIA driver updates... and if you want qualified stable drivers for your pro-cards and pro-apps, expect to pay dearly for that privilege.

I agree Apple and AMD need to do a better job on their drivers, but you can see just how much trouble and expense AMD and Nvidia and their user community goes through to deal with the insanity on the Windows side. With a minority market presence, I really wouldn't expect miracles over here in Mac land... Thankfully, Apple seems to error on the side of stability and focusing on ensuring optimal performance on their own apps. Seems like a good set of priorities to me. If you want every last FPS or mili-second of render time, the Mac platform is probably not the best choice, there's a bag of hurt waiting for you on the other side of the fence

 

[LongSticks]

It's retarded Autodesk, they kept people with this 10 million poly in viewport maximum for years now never testing, i think now they got notified in rather harsh manner about this bug.

There is a lack of serious CGI professionals on Mac OS X, it's all girls who want to do DIsney/Pixar bs with 10 000 poly characters, they never hit serious limits, so there is nobody to report it to obliviously dumb Autodesk. Ever since they purchased all softwares those went south really quick.

OS X drivers are 100% perfectly fine and this issue is not on OSX side but Autodesk, problem is there is only 3 serious apps, and only 1 of them is production one is maya.

Try and compare c4d and modo in OSX vs WIN, c4d can load 100 000 000 easy on OS X.

Voted up!

Guys stop bashing nMP whilst using Autodesk software on OSX! Won't be the best out there in Windows either, as the single core scores aren't quick enough!

I can't talk specifically about Maya, as my uses are CAD based draughting and engineering, but definitely look at alternatives to Autodesk! I really wish I could.

The only thing I now about Maya is that it likes RAM. More the better - for large models, I'm told that 16mb is a minimum, how true that is I have no idea!

All Autodesk software is poor in hardware use with most of the range still only using single CPU core in a multicore world! In the AutoCad based world, over clocked i7''s rule. Autodesk prefers OpenGL in most cases as well!

I hit the buffers recently with a 14mb Cad drawing that Autocad in mac or Windows wouldn't open, just crashed at launch with the fans screaming and ridiculous CPU single core hits! Opened the same drawing in Microstation V8i trial and it purred through it with barely a murmur - multicore power! Just can't get used to the interface ??.

 

[VirtualRain]

The D700 is based on a nearly 2 year old hardware...

Every GPU in production (for either platform) is based on nearly 2 year old hardware. There simply hasn't been a new generation of GPU's in that period of time.

 

[MacVidCards]

Every GPU in production (for either platform) is based on nearly 2 year old hardware. There simply hasn't been a new generation of GPU's in that period of time.

Making excuses doesn't make the GPUs any faster.

Let me clarify.

7970 became fastest single GPU in December 2011 when introduced.

GTX680 took the crown in March 2012

7970 tried Ghz Edition to maintain credibility, had to drop prices to sell units.

Nvidia gave the 2nd half of 1,2 Punch with GK110 in Fall of 2012 when GK110 came out.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6446/nvidia-launches-tesla-k20-k20x-gk110-arrives-at-last/3

So, if you would like to consider GK104 & GK110 the same thing, OK.

In any case, AMD 7970 has been in 2nd place for nearly 2 years. (Hawaii means 7970 is 3rd or 4th, depending on how you look at it)

Or you could look at it that Apple saved a few bucks and went with 2nd rate GPUs and passed the savings on to their customers.

Everyone is so eager to make excuses they forget what this machine could have been.

 

[phrehdd]

I'm no expert on graphics drivers, but I've been around PC's and Macs long enough to know that the whole graphics architecture is pretty much broken. Both on Windows and therefore by extension... Mac. Windows is far from any panacea for graphics troubles. Windows drivers are so bad that every week there's a new beta and you never know what you're going to get. Microsoft does jack to help, it's all an endless looping mess of new AMD or NVIDIA driver updates... and if you want qualified stable drivers for your pro-cards and pro-apps, expect to pay dearly for that privilege.

I agree Apple and AMD need to do a better job on their drivers, but you can see just how much trouble and expense AMD and Nvidia and their user community goes through to deal with the insanity on the Windows side. With a minority market presence, I really wouldn't expect miracles over here in Mac land... Thankfully, Apple seems to error on the side of stability and focusing on ensuring optimal performance on their own apps. Seems like a good set of priorities to me. If you want every last FPS or mili-second of render time, the Mac platform is probably not the best choice, there's a bag of hurt waiting for you on the other side of the fence

You present a very well thought out response. Here is mine (perhaps less well thought out) -

Apple has a crap load of money and the ability to invest in both hardware and application. If Apple had used NV instead of ATI, many would be raving and posting just how brilliant it works across a larger scale of applications.
However, Apple forces its own market and in turn hopes to get 3rd parties to comply with their systems. Apple has been notoriously slow on updates to the Mac Pro line and finally retired it and gave us the new "Mac Mini Pro" (given that it has far more in common with the Mac Mini in limited internal upgrades and most upgrades (really wrong word) is simply adding hardware outside.

Along this line we see similar with Mac software. Aperture is behind Adobe's Lightroom. We also remember how slow some versions of Aperture were on Macs in the past. Look at the attitude of Apple when they put Final Cut "X" out there that was missing some relevant items. If Apple is really about need and customer want, they would have known that the X version when first released was a step backwards. Everything Apple does of late is a trade off. To get one thing, you have to give up another. Sorry but there is no reason to give up anything. Apple hardware (other than Thunderbolt) is not cutting edge by any means. One can get stability with more modern hardware than Apple computers with other operating systems.

I am absolutely no fan of Micro$haft at any level and Linux though useful is also with limitations. - This leaves Apple a HUGE hole that they can fill if they desired. OSX is a decent version of a UNIX type OS and it too has gone through some rough versions so I can't quite call it a stable OS by any means. We have seen hardware issues also with Apple ranging from iMac screens to certain hard drives that were replaced for free. Apple is a business with a particular marketing model that doesn't seem to give a hoot about real needs anymore of upper end computer users. - They rather focus on their i-device market which too will suffer if they don't get their act together before competitors really take them to task.

 

[Anim]

Or you could look at it that Apple saved a few bucks and went with 2nd rate GPUs and passed the savings on to their customers.

This is AMD and classed by Apple as a FirePro card, and looking at the other components (Bandwidth, ram, 3.5 teraflops of performance per card etc), this is a current generation card not some 2nd rate FirePro card. Although, agreed there is no ECC ram on it which would save a few bucks.

Everyone is so eager to make excuses they forget what this machine could have been.

This machine is what some of us want it to be and hence the rather large back log of orders, (small form factor, fast, silent, energy efficient, Apple brand etc). I can see your personally annoyed as you have a business to run so your going to be biased. I don't mean that to be rude as I can see how this could really affect you :/ The solution, as far as a portion of the market is concerned would be to also offer an upgraded oMP system, maybe they will if demand is high enough as it targets a different market being more CPU orientated.

Back on topic though, Apple only have 3 cards with limited hardware options so drivers "should be" simpler and faster to optimize for OSX than they are with Windows.

One question that goes around in my head is who should be responsible for OSX drivers?
We have AMD who make the GPU which is the brain of the card, nobody can know it better than them. But then you have Apple that (I assume) architect the rest of the card like the interface, the rest of the Mac Hardware and obviously the OS. Should it be a collaboration between the two companies? Is that the problem?

 

[tuxon86]

What is your point there? May as well have said a new iMac is based on the last iMac, it doesn't provide anything insightful

I replied to someone who said that it was new hardware. It isn't in the case of the GPU beside the form factor.

 

[Anim]

I replied to someone who said that it was new hardware. It isn't in the case of the GPU beside the form factor.

But your wrong. It is new (or current) hardware, Tahiti XT GPU.

it has the same GPU as the W9000.
It is under clocked (probably for TDP/heat reasons)
6GB Vram
2048 stream processors
384 bit memory bus
3.5 teraflops of performance

So show me the 2 year older FirePro card that matches that and I will apologise

 

[tuxon86]

But your wrong. It is new (or current) hardware, Tahiti XT GPU.

it has the same GPU as the W9000.
It is under clocked (probably for TDP/heat reasons)
6GB Vram
2048 stream processors
384 bit memory bus
3.5 teraflops of performance

So show me the 2 year older FirePro card that matches that and I will apologise

The w9000 was launched in 2012...

 

[Derpage]

But your wrong. It is new (or current) hardware, Tahiti XT GPU.

it has the same GPU as the W9000.
It is under clocked (probably for TDP/heat reasons)
6GB Vram
2048 stream processors
384 bit memory bus
3.5 teraflops of performance

So show me the 2 year older FirePro card that matches that and I will apologise

Please stop trying to put such a thick coat of lipstick on that pig.