new Microsoft products

[zhenya]

This is definitely an issue and one I'm quite surprised MS did not address. Well I'm just assuming they didn't address it because the stated battery life of the SP4 is 9 hours, same as the SP3. Hopefully the SP4 will run closer to its specs, unlike the SP3. Without baying, full brightness, and mainly web browsing, email type stuff I can get a solid 6 hours out of my SP3, sometimes more, but I've never gotten close to 9 hours with typical use. It shouldn't discharge so much overnight, that's not normal, but windows hibernate has always had issues since the beginning.

The iPad are phenomenal in this sense, they last for a long time. But it's a trade off in how you use your tablet. If you simply need a consumption device then definitely stick with the iPad, although personally I'd MUCH rather consume content on my SP3.

Also keep in mind the comparison, the SP3 is not mean to be compared to the iPad. Although in all fairness the MacBook air also gets more battery life than the SP3. I'm not sure that the surface 3 real world battery life is, but that's a better comparison.

I of course realize that the iPad is not directly comparable to the Surface line, the problem is that the Surface is supposed to be a device that integrates both work and casual computing into one. It's a great work device. But it's still a poor casual, personal device, so it fails at one of its primary goals. I can't rely on my Surface to have the battery life I want (or even for it to have any battery left when I want to use it) so as I result I still end up carrying my iPad with me. I'm basically fine with the size and weight of the device as a tablet - and enjoy the larger screen - but for casual use reliable battery is paramount to me, and I have yet to see a Windows device ever deliver on this front.

 

[sracer]

Yes, but it's just a more refined version of what Android has. I wouldn't be surprised if Google took the idea of a PC in your pocket and put some work into its scaling and Google for Work on an external monitor. Of course they already have keyboard/mouse support. Don't forget chromebooks already scale Google stuff pretty decently when connected to an external display, I can't see it being difficult for them to also scale phones and tablets. Even the dock isn't original, Android MHL/OTG docks have been around for years.

Your 2nd paragraph is exactly what I expected out of continuum, instead of the continuum RT we got.

I too had hopes for continuum... but they were guarded hopes since Microsoft has a painful track record of over-promising and under-delivering.

I'm not saying nobody else can do it, but at the moment MS is clearly ahead. Perhaps their much-ridiculed "one OS" strategy will pay off after all.

I don't know if I agree with the "clearly ahead". They are certainly pushing the desktop OS toward being mobile but they're having quite a bit of growing pains and mis-starts in the process. I would say that the Android arena (not driven by any company in particular) is closer to convergence. Devices like the Jide Remix are a bit closer than the Surface, IMO. That's not surprising since it is more difficult to scale down than it is to scale up. But I think it also depends upon what a person's expectation/needs/wants are in a converged device. In this arena, Apple has shown that it is a non-participant.

Chrome OS is popular in the low-price segment, but personally I don't see Google's cloud platform as an alternative to an OS that can run local apps (at least not for the forseeable future).

I think @spinedoc77 's reason for mentioning Chromebooks has to do with Google's experience in implementing support for multiple monitors and differing resolutions. The implication is that an Android-based converged device can be more capable of supporting a larger screen than simply magnifying everything.

Well, it's not RT, but full Windows 10. It will take the developers time to figure out out to make good "universal apps" and to mature the necessary tools. What we are seeing is the next step in a big transition toward a new UI paradigm.

Again, his reference to RT is the promise of something that in actuality is more limited/restricted. This is clearly what Continuum is (at least at this point).

I highly doubt that developers will be fully onboard with Microsoft's vision. Firstly because MS' phone OSes have a very small percentage of the market, Microsoft has a history of abandoning not only their mobile OSes but the developer frameworks that support them. There's a reason why there is still a large deficiency of apps in the App store.

 

[Fernandez21]

I'm not saying nobody else can do it, but at the moment MS is clearly ahead. Perhaps their much-ridiculed "one OS" strategy will pay off after all.

Not sure if I would call them clearly ahead, I like the idea of "one os", but I just don't think Microsoft is there yet. The ui for touchscreen I just don't feel is as polished or intuitive as android or iOS. The ui in Windows 8 was actually slightly better for touch, but much worse for desktop/laptop use.

I think android is actually closer to having one ui that can scale properly to both desktop/laptop. I also think Mac OS X is also closer to scaling to touch than iOS is to scaling to desktop. Note, I'm talking the ui not the actual operating system.

 

[Rigby]

I don't know if I agree with the "clearly ahead". They are certainly pushing the desktop OS toward being mobile but they're having quite a bit of growing pains and mis-starts in the process.

For sure. But it looks like they are getting there.

I would say that the Android arena (not driven by any company in particular) is closer to convergence.

Are there even desktop of laptop Android computers that can run productivity software comparable to office? I don't think it's just about mobile devices with UI scaling support. It's about a common platform for "universal apps" that run on a variety of device configurations from phones to powerful workstations.

Devices like the Jide Remix are a bit closer than the Surface, IMO.

Never heard of it.

Again, his reference to RT is the promise of something that in actuality is more limited/restricted. This is clearly what Continuum is (at least at this point).

Well, that's not really true. RT didn't have all the Windows frameworks and had a number of limitations (like being 32-bit only). Windows 10 is the real thing. The restriction of not being able to use traditional desktop software in Continuum has nothing to do with OS limitations, but simply results from the fact that their UI isn't designed to work on handheld devices, so it cannot dynamically adapt to different display types and input methods in the way "universal apps" can.

I highly doubt that developers will be fully onboard with Microsoft's vision. Firstly because MS' phone OSes have a very small percentage of the market, Microsoft has a history of abandoning not only their mobile OSes but the developer frameworks that support them. There's a reason why there is still a large deficiency of apps in the App store.

They are obviously behind in the mobile space. We'll see if the new products can create more momentum in that area. Personally, I think the new phones are really nice. But they have to overcome a lot of inertia to make people switch ecosystems.

 

[iSheep5S]

I use my Surface 3 (not Pro) in the morning after nightshift. I love the device, the keyboard, the form and Windows 10. I also use it out and about and occasionally at the weekend. The novelty of a portable full PC still hasn't worn off.

I have had 5hrs out of it this week and its at 40.. well 39% battery. That's about as honest a battery review you will get.

I have a HP laptop i use in the evenings for gaming etc. The Surface can be used on power all the time but it defeats the purpose, this leading to my next comment.

I could fit an iPad in my life, i am looking for a good deal on one. I like a full OS thus i like and would still like the Surface better than an iPad. My Nexus is too small but it has its uses, mainly work.. series viewing, nightshift as stated earlier. The iPad would fill the mobile gaming and social stuff etc. Huge standby and i guess... a change of device/OS for variety.

 

[spinedoc77]

Are there even desktop of laptop Android computers that can run productivity software comparable to office? I don't think it's just about mobile devices with UI scaling support. It's about a common platform for "universal apps" that run on a variety of device configurations from phones to powerful workstations.
Never heard of it.

Well that's not entirely fair, continuum can't run productivity software comparable to office either. Office 2016 is a different beast than the Mobile Office that continuum uses. Mobile Office is as much a universal app as google for work is. Certainly we have to see where the "apps" take us, but IMO good luck enticing existing developers to water down their legacy programs into mobile universal apps. Apple can do it, but Apple has a very big stick to swing. My rationale is if big legacy programs could be made into universal apps then why didn't Microsoft make Office 2016 a universal app? By them not doing it, that shows me a distinct LACK of support for their own product.

I don't want to look like I'm crapping all over Microsoft, I'm a huge fan of them and think they are trying very hard. It's just that I got my hopes up with continuum that we would truly get that "PC in your pocket" I've been waiting for 25 years for. But I'm not finding anything particularly revolutionary about continuum, certainly nothing that hasn't been done before.

 

[spinedoc77]

Well, that's not really true. RT didn't have all the Windows frameworks and had a number of limitations (like being 32-bit only). Windows 10 is the real thing. The restriction of not being able to use traditional desktop software in Continuum has nothing to do with OS limitations, but simply results from the fact that their UI isn't designed to work on handheld devices, so it cannot dynamically adapt to different display types and input methods in the way "universal apps" can.
They are obviously behind in the mobile space. We'll see if the new products can create more momentum in that area. Personally, I think the new phones are really nice. But they have to overcome a lot of inertia to make people switch ecosystems.

My RT reference was very loose, and not meant to be taken literally. My meaning was that continuum, or more specifically windows 10 on a phone scaled to a larger display through a dock, is far less functional than windows 10 in its current iteration. Sure that may change, MS may put some serious muscle behind it. Maybe these are just growing pains and MS does indeed plan to give us "full" windows in continuum, one can only hope. But in it's current state continuum isn't much better than RT, and I'll bet it's actually worse in some ways. I still haven't seen how continuum handles a file system, registry, etc. When you say the limitation is because the desktop UI wasn't designed to work on handheld devices, that's kind of obvious, all respect intended to you. I don't expect the desktop on my phone at all, but the way MS was marketing this I felt that the desktop would be as represented on an external screen just as much as it is on any PC.

Don't get me wrong, I also think the new phones are VERY nice. I also don't want to sound unappreciative of continuum, it's very cool and I'm still kind of hovering and considering it. I will most probably pick up a 950XL and a dock and putz around with it. I'm just a little jaded seeing how much MS actually detracted from windows 10 instead of adding to it functionally and don't know if I have the faith in them to actually execute the ideas they put forth.

 

[Rigby]

Well that's not entirely fair, continuum can't run productivity software comparable to office either. Office 2016 is a different beast than the Mobile Office that continuum uses. Mobile Office is as much a universal app as google for work is.

There is a huge difference. Google's apps run mostly in the cloud (yeah yeah, there is some AJAX stuff in the browser too). They are more comparable to Office 365 Online. The Office Mobile apps, on the other hand, run completely on the device and are fully functional without an online connection.

Certainly we have to see where the "apps" take us, but IMO good luck enticing existing developers to water down their legacy programs into mobile universal apps. Apple can do it, but Apple has a very big stick to swing. My rationale is if big legacy programs could be made into universal apps then why didn't Microsoft make Office 2016 a universal app?

They are probably planning to converge them, but it will take time and money. Office is a huge beast of old legacy software.

 

[Rigby]

I think android is actually closer to having one ui that can scale properly to both desktop/laptop. I also think Mac OS X is also closer to scaling to touch than iOS is to scaling to desktop. Note, I'm talking the ui not the actual operating system.

Try operating an OS X desktop via a VNC client on a phone. It's very far away from being usable on a small touch screen.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Try operating an OS X desktop via a VNC client on a phone. It's very far away from being usable on a small touch screen.

It's not that bad. I have to scroll up and down the screen slightly on my S6 Edge, but other than that it's very useable. On my Nexus 7 it's perfect. I using Chrome Remote desktop. I'm thinking about getting Splashtop, since it also streams audio.


From my S6 Edge ....

 

[Rigby]

It's not that bad. I have to scroll up and down the screen slightly on my S6 Edge, but other than that it's very useable. On my Nexus 7 it's perfect.

Uhm, have you actually tried operating the menus, dragging objects, using the window control elements, editing some text etc.? My definition of "perfect" is very different from yours. I had to do this a few times to remote administrate a machine in emergency situations and hated every second of it.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Uhm, have you actually tried operating the menus, dragging objects, using the window control elements, editing some text etc.? My definition of "perfect" is very different.

Yea, it's not bad at all. As long as you can control the mouse cursor, nothing else changes. Only thing that changes in the keyboard covering 1/3 of my phone screen when I type, but it adjusts itself accordingly.

But as far as Fernandez21 saying OSX scaling to touch, I agree, if Apple does some slight modifications. If MS can do it with Windows, then why not Apple? IMO, Apple wouldn't even need a touch UI like Windows has Metro to go along if the desktop, cause OSX does look touch friendly for the most part.

 

[Rigby]

Yea, it's not bad at all.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But as far as Fernandez21 saying OSX scaling to touch, I agree, if Apple does some slight modifications. If MS can do it with Windows, then why not Apple?

Microsoft hasn't done "slight modifications". They built an entire alternative UI into Windows. The classic Windows desktop UI is just as bad on small touch screens as OS X (which is precisely why classic desktop software is not supported in Continuum). Even on tablets with a bigger touch screen the classic desktop UI is very awkward.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Microsoft hasn't done "slight modifications". They built an entire alternative UI into Windows. The classic Windows desktop UI is just as bad on small touch screens as OS X (which is precisely why classic desktop software is not supported in Continuum).

On a phone, agreed
On a larger tablet, it's doable.

 

[Fernandez21]

Try operating an OS X desktop via a VNC client on a phone. It's very far away from being usable on a small touch screen.

Obviously it would have to be modified, but I'm saying the ui on osx could easily scale to touch. First, there wouldn't be multiple windows like on the desktop, everything would be full screen. The menus on top would be accessible by a swipe down from the upper right hand corner. You would still have a home screen and favorites bar with launchpad having all your apps, very similar to android. The multitasking gesture would take you to mission control. The ui wouldn't be exactly the same as it is in desktop mode, but would modify it self slightly to accommodate touch.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Obviously it would have to be modified, but I'm saying the ui on osx could easily scale to touch. First, there wouldn't be multiple windows like on the desktop, everything would be full screen. The menus on top would be accessible by a swipe down from the upper right hand corner. You would still have a home screen and favorites bar with launchpad having all your apps, very similar to android. The multitasking gesture would take you to mission control. The ui wouldn't be exactly the same as it is in desktop mode, but would modify it self slightly to accommodate touch.

This takes me back to pre-iPhone release when rumors were of an actually full modified OSX. Rumor started by Jobs himself. I was slightly disappointed after the Keynote, but iOS was still a major breakthrough.


http://macdailynews.com/2007/06/04/apple_ceo_steve_jobs_confirms_iphone_powered_by_real_mac_os_x/

Steve Jobs pulled an iPhone out of his pocket last week during a staged Q&A at the Wall Street Journal’s D: All Things Digital conference, but quickly tucked it away. His comments about Apple’s dive into the cell phone market were almost as fleeting, but the company’s CEO did offer up some new tidbits to eager buyers,” Computerworld reports.

“Jobs also confirmed that the iPhone is powered by Mac OS X, not a miniaturised version or a completely different operating system, as some had theorised earlier this year,” Computerworld reports.

 

[Rigby]

Obviously it would have to be modified, but I'm saying the ui on osx could easily scale to touch. First, there wouldn't be multiple windows like on the desktop, everything would be full screen. The menus on top would be accessible by a swipe down from the upper right hand corner.

Drop-down menus don't work well on phone screens. There are also many other things that would have to be redesigned, like Finder (try selecting multiple files using a touch screen in today's Finder), Preferences and all the other system tools.

You would still have a home screen and favorites bar with launchpad having all your apps, very similar to android. The multitasking gesture would take you to mission control. The ui wouldn't be exactly the same as it is in desktop mode, but would modify it self slightly to accommodate touch.

At that point you'd end up with something very similar to the Windows "modern" interface with its start screen, except perhaps using icons instead of tiles ...

 

[Fernandez21]

Drop-down menus don't work well on phone screens. There are also many other things that would have to be redesigned, like Finder (try selecting multiple files using a touch screen in today's Finder), Preferences and all the other system tools.
At that point you'd end up with something very similar to the Windows "modern" interface with its start screen, except perhaps using icons instead of tiles ...

Sure they do, they just can't be tiny.

As for multiple selections, you can do something like force touch or long press to select. You can even have a button on the upper left like in the mail app to allow you to select multiple files.

The thing with Windows 10 is that now the task bar remains on screen in touch mode, taking up space and the targets look tiny. Though to be fair I haven't played with it yet, just going off what I've seen in videos. My windows 10 experience is limited to my desktop.

 

[Rigby]

Sure they do, they just can't be tiny.

Exactly, they can't be long. They also shouldn't be nested like many are on OS X.

As for multiple selections, you can do something like force touch or long press to select. You can even have a button on the upper left like in the mail app to allow you to select multiple files.

Sure you can do something. It's just one of a million little things that need to be redesigned. That's my point.

The thing with Windows 10 is that now the task bar remains on screen in touch mode, taking up space and the targets look tiny. Though to be fair I haven't played with it yet, just going off what I've seen in videos. My windows 10 experience is limited to my desktop.

The taskbar (which is also the status bar) works well in tablet mode on a Surface Pro and actually provides many useful shortcuts. I haven't tried Windows 10 on a phone yet though.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Edge should be an indication that the desktop Windows side is going to become more and more touch friendly in due time. MS is not intermingling Metro and Desktop for the sole purpose of upgrading from Windows 8 UI. I think Metro and Desktop will eventually blend into something completely different, and we'll see a Windows OS that caters too both sides without the need for both UIs.

 

[spinedoc77]

There is a huge difference. Google's apps run mostly in the cloud (yeah yeah, there is some AJAX stuff in the browser too). They are more comparable to Office 365 Online. The Office Mobile apps, on the other hand, run completely on the device and are fully functional without an online connection.
They are probably planning to converge them, but it will take time and money. Office is a huge beast of old legacy software.

Meh, you can run Google apps offline in case you didn't know. Docs, slides, etc. Although I'm not sure which point you are making, online or offline they are comparable to office mobile, office 2016, office 365 online, etc. The debate then shifts over to features, of which I'm sure mobile office would be the winner, but the issue with that is that mobile office is available on iOS and Android. Let me just fire up my Android phone, hook it up to my MHL dock and I have MS office on my external monitor complete with keyboard and mouse. Heck I don't even have to compare Google for work to mobile office, I can simply compare mobile office to mobile office. So MS has done great things in terms of scaling and matching the UI's, my previous point was there is nothing stopping Google from doing the same, and I'll bet Google is gearing up to do EXACTLY that. They already understand the importance of taking over the desktop, that's what Chrome OS and hardware is all about.

...Anyway that wasn't my point at all. The comparison that matters to me is Office 2016 versus Office Mobile. Continuum runs one and not the other one. Microsoft is saying "a full PC in your pocket, unless you mean full PC programs", which is the equivalent of saying "no desktop programs, only apps".

So no, it's not a huge difference at all. Some scaling and UI work by Google and suddenly they are ahead of the game. If Microsoft went all out and made continuum have true desktop functionality, Office 2016, ability to run legacy programs, etc THEN it would have been very far ahead of the game, far enough where I doubt anyone else would catch them any time soon. Instead they half assed it, slapped a futuristic label on it, and had a cool dude in a fedora announce it. 3 years from now we'll either hear 1) MS pushed and gave us true desktop functionality in continuum, it's a major success. Or 2) MS rested on its laurels (as they are apt to do) and let Google and eventually Apple surpass them with nothing great except the power of having many consumers, continuum is dead, continuum developers are out of luck..again...and swear off MS, MS has a billion dollar write down and they lose the mobile war part 2. Of course the latter scenario isn't truly bad for them, by kickstarting the market now their apps are on all the other platforms and they of course will get their subscription money.

 

[Rigby]

So MS has done great things in terms of scaling and matching the UI's, my previous point was there is nothing stopping Google from doing the same, and I'll bet Google is gearing up to do EXACTLY that.

Frankly, I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Has anybody ever said that it's not possible for Google or Apple or anybody to start building a "universal platform" for all device types too? Of course they can, but so far they haven't, while MS is well on its way.

 

[spinedoc77]

Frankly, I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Has anybody ever said that it's not possible for Google or Apple or anybody to start building a "universal platform" for all device types too? Of course they can, but so far they haven't, while MS is well on its way.

My point is that continuum was overhyped and underdelivered. What it delivers already exists and is nothing revolutionary.