macOS New Programmer: How about trying to learn the way Woz did?

[mkelly]

I have twin 6 year old daughters and I've been thinking along the same lines as you ... I took a different route and bought a couple old 8-bit machines: a Commodore 128 and an Apple IIc, and let them have at it. The beauty of it is that the old machines are so simple: turn them on and they're up and running - no need to boot an OS, open a terminal or an IDE, etc. If they mess something up, just power it off and restart.

The Internet Archive (http://archive.org) has a ton of old Byte and Compute! magazines available online, full of tutorials, programs, etc. It's also easy enough to download software from the net, and there are even adapters that allow you to use modern storage media with these old machines.

Why not teach them something newer like Python, Java, Ruby, etc? Eventually, I will - but for the time being they're exploring and having a blast - and learning the basics of computer programming.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

One thing that baffles me is the death of the BASIC language.

It's as if the whole world just decided that cartoons were a waste of time, and they just disappeared. (Trying this analogy thing)

I realize that the original BASIC was line based, and did encourage bad programming styles, but it WAS a good starting point for programming. It gave people the basics of programming arithmetic logic, and the ideas of branching, and logicals, etc...

I don't know if there is an up to date BASIC interpreter/compiler still out there, except for the ROM BASIC on many old boxes like the APPLE ][, and others... I haven't checked, does Xcode have BASIC?

iTunes U has a 'class' from Harvard (I think) that uses a rather Logo-esque programming environment for their CPS100 class. It's pretty limited, and rudimentary, I thought... I didn't spend much time looking at it. It was funny that they tried to make their CPS100 classes so much like an almost religion/summer campy experience...

 

[mkelly]

One thing that baffles me is the death of the BASIC language.

It's as if the whole world just decided that cartoons were a waste of time, and they just disappeared. (Trying this analogy thing)

Not a bad analogy ... and I miss Saturday morning cartoons

But in any case - BASIC certainly has its faults but it's how many of today's programmers got started and there is certainly value in learning it. Good programmers may have a favourite language, but they're generally able to pick up any language and run with it. The syntax and features vary from language to language, but the core concepts behind programming remain the same. There's nothing inherently wrong with using BASIC to teach those concepts.

And no, Xcode doesn't support BASIC. But there are a number of BASIC interpreters available for OS X, some of which are free, like Chipmunk BASIC: http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/basic/

Edit: There's a really interesting article by Salon called "Why Johnny can't code", linked from that Chipmunk BASIC site, that is worth a read.

 

[mkelly]

Also, here's a link to the Computer Magazine Archive - I really recommend having a look through the old magazines - there's a ton of info and tutorials in there ... as well as more than a few hilariously outdated ads

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Not a bad analogy ... and I miss Saturday morning cartoons

But in any case - BASIC certainly has its faults but it's how many of today's programmers got started and there is certainly value in learning it. Good programmers may have a favorite language, but they're generally able to pick up any language and run with it. The syntax and features vary from language to language, but the core concepts behind programming remain the same. There's nothing inherently wrong with using BASIC to teach those concepts.

True that you are not going to reinvent the world with BASIC, but you *can* learn to program, and *can* have some fun with it... Well, at least it's a potential way to ignite the desire, the 'coolness' of 'rolling your own'...

I have no idea why I'm throwing in drug metaphors while discussing children learning to program, but, well, there you go... Your mileage will vary.

DECUS is dead, well, and so is DEC, but there are alternatives out there...

But, just as a comment, avoid the 'Objective C Programming Language' app from the App Store. You pay per run, and there are NO RUNS included with the app. #FAIL IMO!

But, as an aside, are 'today's youth' lazier than we were when we were kids? Is the idea of 'Free Range Kids' a radical new (OLD!) idea that should make a comeback? Should the first thing that families do be to toss the video games and the second thing to buy everyone bikes? I never procreated, so I don't have a 'dog in the hunt', but I'd hope that it wouldn't have been so hard to get them 'involved'. Involved, like in 'reality'...

 

[adrian.oconnor]

Interesting question about the death of BASIC. There's one modern basic still in regular use -- VB.NET, but it's very different to original basic. For my money, Ruby is the new basic (not literally -- it's far more powerful in every way, but it's very accessible to beginners) and maybe Python too, judging by all the 'Teach your kid Python' books -- and those both come installed on every Mac (I think -- or do you need to install Xcode to get them? I forget now...).

 

[DrMotownMac]

There's a really interesting article by Salon called "Why Johnny can't code", linked from that Chipmunk BASIC site, that is worth a read.

Thank you very much for that article. It captures EXACTLY how I was feeling about teaching my daughter how to program. There's just something about the way kids are being taught today vs. the way kids sort of just learned it on their own back in the 70s and 80s. Maybe the more basic problem here is not about the specifics of languages, machines and operating systems, but rather the general environment in which my daughter lives vs. the environment and state of knowledge back then. Before we had iPhones, iPads, X-Boxes, PlayStations, etc., we only had our imaginations of what we COULD have in the future...if only we could build it. Now, someone came along an actually BUILT all that stuff. So the kids are so busy playing Minecraft (which I still think is absurd -- what are these kids "building" with those pixelated pieces of dirt?), that they don't have time to even think about gates and circuit boards.

The author of that Salon article ultimately purchased a $25 20-year-old Commodore 64 for his kid, and he was lucky enough to see it work. But he essentially had to go back in time to let his son experience the same "WONDER" about computers that he once did. It's worrisome, because I keep thinking of that movie, "Idiocracy", where in the future, no one understands how anything works simply because they don't have to. And it really seems like we're all headed there. Meanwhile, my daughter keeps thinking that she's going to be an "actress or a pop star", so she won't have to worry about things like "math" or "science" when she grows up. And she's an all-A student who scores in the 99th percentile on both verbal and math sections of the standardized tests they give at school. Ugh....Every time I tell her she shouldn't put all of her eggs in those baskets, she says, "What's the matter? You don't think I'm any good? You don't think I have any talent?" So, not wanting to be *THAT* dad, who is so hyper-critical of his child that she breaks down and cries every night, I say, "No, of course not! You can be anything you want when you grow up. But for now, you need to learn about everything because you just never know what's going to happen, and even some of the most talented people can't make it in entertainment for reasons which no one really understands. Just please have a back-up plan!!"

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the uphill battle I'm fighting.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Meanwhile, my daughter keeps thinking that she's going to be an "actress or a pop star", so she won't have to worry about things like "math" or "science" when she grows up. And she's an all-A student who scores in the 99th percentile on both verbal and math sections of the standardized tests they give at school. Ugh....Every time I tell her she shouldn't put all of her eggs in those baskets, she says, "What's the matter? You don't think I'm any good? You don't think I have any talent?" So, not wanting to be *THAT* dad, who is so hyper-critical of his child that she breaks down and cries every night, I say, "No, of course not! You can be anything you want when you grow up. But for now, you need to learn about everything because you just never know what's going to happen, and even some of the most talented people can't make it in entertainment for reasons which no one really understands. Just please have a back-up plan!!"

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the uphill battle I'm fighting.

Ahh, it's the curse of reality TV in America.

I was at a musician friends business and he had a little girl that they were doing voice lessons with. She really wasn't 'all that', and I commented on it. He shrugged and said that her parents 'saw something' and want their little girl to have 'all the breaks'. I chuckled and said that it must be hard to see yourself clearly there because of all the broken mirrors.

Every something thinks they are someone who could 'make it' because they see the heavily scripted mess passing as 'entertainment' in those vapid reality TV shows. No, sometimes America has no talent. Lone at all.

Something like 0.1% of those that start out in 'the business' actually claw their way up high enough to 'make it'. For the others, well they just wallow around clinging to their ambition, and lack of thinking about how many people do not make it. AND, a sad fact, MANY that 'have it' and ARE very talented just don't 'make it' because, well, life isn't fair.

Friends in high school got together and formed a rocking band. They covered so many songs, and they did them so well, that everyone thought they would 'make it'. They were really that good. Once of the guitarists toured with Aerosmith briefly. Other members did session work for other bigger acts. They even got enough cash to cut a record. It rocked... They went no where as a band, and after a few years, they broke up, and I don't think any of them work in the industry now.

Back to the friend: I mentioned that someone should tell that little girl that she is not the next Celine Dion, and he said that moment was coming but there would be 'drama' and much anger and frustration. They were the second, or possibly third voice coaches for that 'little angel'. The parents will likely take her somewhere else because they don't want to 'crush her dream'. I couldn't help thinking that is how Honey Boo-boo got started...

Even the best Hollywood stars had a 'Plan-B'. Many have Masters and some are PhD graduates. Many got their degrees so they know when they are being ripped off. Queen had all of the members with PhD graduate music degrees.

Education is only wasted on a stone.

But I'm way to philosophical for a Thursday morning...

But anyway...

Good luck...

 

[DrMotownMac]

Back to the friend: I mentioned that someone should tell that little girl that she is not the next Celine Dion, and he said that moment was coming but there would be 'drama' and much anger and frustration. They were the second, or possibly third voice coaches for that 'little angel'. The parents will likely take her somewhere else because they don't want to 'crush her dream'. I couldn't help thinking that is how Honey Boo-boo got started...

Even the best Hollywood stars had a 'Plan-B'. Many have Masters and some are PhD graduates. Many got their degrees so they know when they are being ripped off. Queen had all of the members with PhD graduate music degrees.

Education is only wasted on a stone.

But I'm way to philosophical for a Thursday morning...

But anyway...

Good luck...

I agree 100% with everything you said. My plan is to let my daughter audition and fail on a few occasions, let her cry it out, and then point out to her where her real talents lie (math and science), and that she should really focus her efforts there. Let music and acting be a fun HOBBY, while she earns a living at something useful and productive.

The funny thing is that I used to love to act and sing when I was a kid too (yes, she gets it from ME, not her mother who's painfully shy in front of groups). But I learned very quickly that I was mediocre at best. After getting the role of "CHORUS" in two high school musicals, I figured out that there were others who were much better than me. The good news is that I became a very good and comfortable public speaker, I can appreciate acting and singing talent (even when I don't have it myself), and I learned how to roll with the punches.

I'm hoping that my daughter will learn those same lessons, and with my guidance and reassurance, I think she will.

But, I can tell you one thing she will never be in the future: HONEY BOO-BOO.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

But, I can tell you one thing she will never be in the future: HONEY BOO-BOO.

I would seriously consider homicide. Seriously. Both the wife, and the child...

Then a quick dash to someplace I could hide...

 

[juanm]

I agree 100% with everything you said. My plan is to let my daughter audition and fail on a few occasions, let her cry it out, and then point out to her where her real talents lie (math and science), and that she should really focus her efforts there. Let music and acting be a fun HOBBY, while she earns a living at something useful and productive.

The funny thing is that I used to love to act and sing when I was a kid too (yes, she gets it from ME, not her mother who's painfully shy in front of groups). But I learned very quickly that I was mediocre at best. After getting the role of "CHORUS" in two high school musicals, I figured out that there were others who were much better than me. The good news is that I became a very good and comfortable public speaker, I can appreciate acting and singing talent (even when I don't have it myself), and I learned how to roll with the punches.

I'm hoping that my daughter will learn those same lessons, and with my guidance and reassurance, I think she will.

But, I can tell you one thing she will never be in the future: HONEY BOO-BOO.

Honestly, I think you shouldn't put too much pressure on her. Deciding what she's gonna be good at or like in life just because she got excited with earrings or whatnot at age eight is unrealistic. She doesn't have to get this or get that from either parent: even though the upbringing obviously influences children, they are unique. My father decided I'd go into classical music, and that I should start playing violin at two (!). For years I was only allowed to listen classical music and all he got in the end is that now I cannot stand to even listen classical music (except for Beethoven, oddly). Programming can be very fun or incredibly tedious, so don't push your programming frustrations over to your child, instead stimulate her interest and let her decide.

 

[DrMotownMac]

Pressure is the LAST thing I want to put on her. And I certainly don't want her to go against me just for the sake of rebelling against me. So, in the end, I guess the best I can do is be positive and encouraging regardless of what she decides, and only offer advice when asked for it. But it sure is hard sometimes. It's like watching a train wreck occurring in slow motion, and I just have to sit quietly and wait for it to end.

In the meantime, I'm going to try to learn as much as I can, because in the end, I still enjoy it and think it's fun regardless of what she thinks, even if a lot of these things (like Arduino and Raspberry Pi, and certainly LEGO Mindstorms) may be geared more for kids than adults. Oh well, I am who I am....

 

[juanm]

Pressure is the LAST thing I want to put on her. And I certainly don't want her to go against me just for the sake of rebelling against me. So, in the end, I guess the best I can do is be positive and encouraging regardless of what she decides, and only offer advice when asked for it. But it sure is hard sometimes. It's like watching a train wreck occurring in slow motion, and I just have to sit quietly and wait for it to end.

In the meantime, I'm going to try to learn as much as I can, because in the end, I still enjoy it and think it's fun regardless of what she thinks, even if a lot of these things (like Arduino and Raspberry Pi, and certainly LEGO Mindstorms) may be geared more for kids than adults. Oh well, I am who I am....

Make no mistake, Arduino and RPi are NOT for kids. They are for everybody. I know a guy who made a rebreather scuba unit, and he puts his life in the hands of the Arduino Pro controlling the oxygen mix every time he dives.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I started doing some of the Makeit kits to keep my soldering skills up. Not that they are in use all that much, but it is pretty neat to actually 'build' something. I took a class back in early college where we 'built' Heath/Zenith computers. It was interesting assembling them, testing them, and dissecting them when they misbehaved.

It's too bad that 'building your own' isn't more of a thing these days... Sure you can, but it's more 'sterile' than it was in those 'good old days'...

 

[DrMotownMac]

Make no mistake, Arduino and RPi are NOT for kids. They are for everybody. I know a guy who made a rebreather scuba unit, and he puts his life in the hands of the Arduino Pro controlling the oxygen mix every time he dives.

That's very cool. You know, there's a place near me called "The Robot Garage" (http://www.therobotgarage.com). It's essentially a store inside of a warehouse/garage kind of facility, where they sell all of the LEGO products, in addition to similar brands, as well as basic, sort of child kits for building simplistic robots. They also have after school "classes" there, as well as week-long summer camp programs where kids come in and learn to build and program robots and machines out of legos. They have a series of Arduino classes also, but they are for middle school kids, and then the more advanced class is for high school kids. So, I emailed the store owner and asked if I could take one of the classes, and she said that I'd probably feel uncomfortable since I'm about 30 years older than the other kids. They don't even OFFER classes for adults. What's up with that?

I told her that she and her co-owner/husband should seriously consider it, since I think there's a real market out there of people like me, but she sort of brushed me off. Frankly, if I were younger and didn't have as much to risk, I'd consider diving into this full force, learning everything I could about it, and then open up my own place of business to compete against these people. But, my medical practice and my marriage would probably both go down the tubes if I tried to do something like that now.

 

[juanm]

That's very cool. You know, there's a place near me called "The Robot Garage" (http://www.therobotgarage.com). It's essentially a store inside of a warehouse/garage kind of facility, where they sell all of the LEGO products, in addition to similar brands, as well as basic, sort of child kits for building simplistic robots. They also have after school "classes" there, as well as week-long summer camp programs where kids come in and learn to build and program robots and machines out of legos. They have a series of Arduino classes also, but they are for middle school kids, and then the more advanced class is for high school kids. So, I emailed the store owner and asked if I could take one of the classes, and she said that I'd probably feel uncomfortable since I'm about 30 years older than the other kids. They don't even OFFER classes for adults. What's up with that?

I told her that she and her co-owner/husband should seriously consider it, since I think there's a real market out there of people like me, but she sort of brushed me off. Frankly, if I were younger and didn't have as much to risk, I'd consider diving into this full force, learning everything I could about it, and then open up my own place of business to compete against these people. But, my medical practice and my marriage would probably both go down the tubes if I tried to do something like that now.

Honestly, it's perfectly possible to learn with internet tutorials. Youtube is full free tutorials, or if you want a more comprehensive approach, try http://www.lynda.com/Arduino-tutorials/Up-Running-Arduino/162273-2.html
Sure, a teacher might help to go faster, but they probably have custom courses for kids, like making a robot, stuff like that: fun, but not very useful. Maybe 8yo is too old, I've no idea, but does your daughter have a doll house or something you could "Arduinize" with her? That would be a cool project. You can make all kinds of useful or even useless things (like this:

)

It takes about one afternoon to get on your feet with Arduino. Its computer interface can be downloaded and work standalone if you want to see how the software works, open other people programs, or try coding. Of course, you'll need an actual Arduino board to make it real, but you'll see how easy it is. Here's the direct download link for Mac : Mac OS X 10.7 Lion or newer

The Arduino Language is based on C++ so you'll find many of its features across other related languages. It's an easy way to familiarise yourself with the basic concepts (variables, operators...) while at the same time creating useful things.

 

[DrMotownMac]

Once again, thank you very much. Your comments, as well those from PinkyMacGodess, adrian.oconnor, mkelly and others in this thread, are extremely helpful. I love hearing thoughts and ideas from so many like-minded individuals. Actually, I love just knowing that there even ARE so many like-minded individuals! You guys are awesome!