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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
4,903
Tell that to granny.

Yea, and it's not just granny.

The same as today. Just as we do just fine with USB 2 speeds for 23 years now.

Doing fine is different from having the latest capabilities. I suspect many people would not be happy using USB-2 as the speed for hard disks.
It's a port for changing the interface. Such as having display port, hdmi, ethernet, headphone jack, SD card reader etc. Not to plug in gpus.

Well how is it a problem? My computer can still connect sata drives.

Or change the motherboard and get access to new technology.

My point is modularity doesn't future proof a machine. You're relying on standard connectors still being the standard to ensure you can use components if you replace the motherboard; and then are limited to what may be 5 or more year old tech at that point. Realistically, other than changing the motherboard may be cheaper than a new laptop, in both cases anything attached via USB will still work if the new device has USB conections of the same type.

Today's speeds may be good enough for many users, but if you want the latest you are going to have to change not just the motherboard but it's other components as well, which probabaly already puts you into teh range of a new laptop.

I'm not against modular computers, one feature I wish laptops stil had was is the ability to upgrade RAM and disk storage. I just think they also have all the limitations that upgrading a desktop has since they essentially are a desktop design philosophy in a laptop.

You can just use the EOBD and connect your laptop and use some software.

U less you can provide som concrete examples. I haven't found anything a 200€ reader can't do such as

iCarsoft POR V3.0​


Any capacity the manufacturers tools can do are available to 100% of the market tools

I am not familiar with Porches as the last one I owned predated the OBD interface. The BMW tool I have can't do much of the coding for adding features after you have installed the hardware, although it does do a lot of diagnostic and reset functions, for example Bluetooth upgrade. I could install all the hardware and did, since my BMW was still prewired from the factory for the option, but available coding tools would not do the update to the build order. My dealer did that for me.

Even Carsoft has a disclaimer on their tools, whether they are 100 or 1500 Euros:

Certain functions may be limited from the vehicle manufacturer due to the requirement of a special factory access code.

I could not find any reference on the BMW Carsoft section on coding the build order.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,635
2,559
Scandinavia
Yea, and it's not just granny.



Doing fine is different from having the latest capabilities. I suspect many people would not be happy using USB-2 as the speed for hard disks.
That is true but they would be happy to be able to connect it no?
USB 3 have existed for 14 years. And the form factor have existed for 30 years soo.

And pcie have existed for 20 years.
My point is modularity doesn't future proof a machine. You're relying on standard connectors still being the standard to ensure you can use components if you replace the motherboard; and then are limited to what may be 5 or more year old tech at that point. Realistically, other than changing the motherboard may be cheaper than a new laptop, in both cases anything attached via USB will still work if the new device has USB conections of the same type.
I think looking at tecology it seems modularity is a guarantee.
Today's speeds may be good enough for many users, but if you want the latest you are going to have to change not just the motherboard but it's other components as well, which probabaly already puts you into teh range of a new laptop.
Well if you want cutting edge you would need to update the CPU everytime. But you don't necessarily need to update other components.

We can do a rough comparison what it would theoretically cost using frameworks component prices and with 20/20 hindsight with history making it a little unfair.

Just take the Retina macbook pro 2013. It would start with thunderbolt 2 before usb c form factor was adopted and the first 13inch retina as framework only have 13inch currently:

I'm assuming it have 4 internal thunderbolt ports just like the framework to try and make an apples to apples comparison. Even tho a 13inch 8gb ram 256g ssd cost 1.000$~ today.

  • 2013 late MacBookPro10,2: 1999$. 256gb SSD 16GB ddr3 ram, 6 Gbit/s msata , two thunderbolt 2 ports( two usb 3.0 ports), 1hdmi, 1 sdxc
  • FIRST UPPFRADE 20164 ports mainbord uppgrade 449$(pcie 3 4x NVME, ddr3 ram, 4 Thunderbolt 3(USB c) ports.
    • 250-512Gb SSD( Samsung 960 EVO 130-250$ 2017 Amazon price)
    • New batery 80$~
  • New MacBook Pro 13 (2016). 250-500gb 16gb ram 2000-2200$ vs 660-780
  • Second uppgrade 2020 4 port.
    • 449$ mainbord.
    • 60$ 16gb lpddr4 ram
    • 80$~ batery?
  • Macbook Pro 2020 13inch 512gb 16gb 1799$ vs 510-590$ uppgrades.
  • Third uppgrade 2023
  • Macbook Pro 14inch 32gb ram, 4TB SSD 3.300$ vs 1.200$
Total Price difference 9.300$ vs 4.570$

I'm not against modular computers, one feature I wish laptops stil had was is the ability to upgrade RAM and disk storage. I just think they also have all the limitations that upgrading a desktop has since they essentially are a desktop design philosophy in a laptop.
Well it depends how extreme you take things.
I am not familiar with Porches as the last one I owned predated the OBD interface. The BMW tool I have can't do much of the coding for adding features after you have installed the hardware, although it does do a lot of diagnostic and reset functions, for example Bluetooth upgrade. I could install all the hardware and did, since my BMW was still prewired from the factory for the option, but available coding tools would not do the update to the build order. My dealer did that for me.

Even Carsoft has a disclaimer on their tools, whether they are 100 or 1500 Euros:

Certain functions may be limited from the vehicle manufacturer due to the requirement of a special factory access code.

I could not find any reference on the BMW Carsoft section on coding the build order.
Well they don't have the latest codes if the veicle came after the tool was launched. And the regulation getts updated regularly.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
4,903
That is true but they would be happy to be able to connect it no?

Maybe, but they would not want to be limited to it either.

USB 3 have existed for 14 years. And the form factor have existed for 30 years soo.

And pcie have existed for 20 years.

And faster standards have come into existence in the meantime.

Well they don't have the latest codes if the veicle came after the tool was launched. And the regulation getts updated regularly.

True, but I was giving you an example where non-OEM tools do not support all the functionality of OEM ones; in response to your question to me about providing an example.
 

SB1500

Suspended
Dec 31, 2021
147
104
Contrary to the EU-fanboys on here, Apple (and the industry) don't need to be told to look out for the consumer... they are listening to the consumer. They always have been. It's us, who pay, with our hard earned cash for thinner, faster, more reliable, longer lasting, lower cost phones / tablets / computers. It's Apple (key innovator) and the copycats (Samsung, et. al.) who made the engineering decisions and increased the bar. These things were the likes of laminated screens, built in batteries (multiple batteries to fit into more advanced shapes), removal of some ports that 90% of people don't use on a portable... WE BUY THEM. We voted.

Gosh, the EU and its fans fail to respect peoples voting. They decide for us that they represent us all.

For the non EU folks here, this is exactly why we left in the UK - because these kind of decisions are made, without the average person knowing, being asked, or voting for them. And while we're on that, these people also are unelected. It's insane. There is lots of good, lots of positive and amazing things behind the EU and the idea of the EU, but there are definitely major flaws and this is one of them. It's a shame it affects Apple (and therefore all of us).

...what's that other big power that Apple has to make a slightly different iPhone for again...?

Modular, multiple removable battery, user replaceable screen batteries and phones already exist in the market. They sell in low volume because in reality, nobody really wants that above the advantages of integrated systems as we have.

Arguments in right to repair a la Louiss Rossman are not based in reality. Why does Apple replace your iPhone in store? Because a company, even the size of Apple cannot pay a number of highly skilled micro-soldering engineers, the hours spent doing the repair etc in every retail location... while you wait, with the odds that it's a 50/50 bet if it'll work. We live in a world where we make things to be recyclable. Because by the time your Mac is 7 years old, for the same money or less, there's a faster, more recyclable, more efficient, energy sparing model that can step in and do the job. Same with cars. Same with any consumer industry today. It's more sensible to give things a defined life, then accept that within 5 years, a better solution (by miles) will exist and be kinder to the planet and usually our wallets too.
 

SB1500

Suspended
Dec 31, 2021
147
104
Whatever next ? Allowing third party cellular device manufacturers to be able to make iOS devices to complete with Apple ?😂
The concerning thing is, they have the power to do this, unquestioned. And the only thing Apple could do is take it to their high court.

Despite my disagreement with it, USB-C will be handy. The battery thing, not so much for the average person... Just imagine they take it that far. With no objection or listening to the other side, who knows, they might get confident enough to do this then boom, industry and innovation ruined
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
4,903
Despite my disagreement with it, USB-C will be handy. The battery thing, not so much for the average person... Just imagine they take it that far. With no objection or listening to the other side, who knows, they might get confident enough to do this then boom, industry and innovation ruined

If they do, a lot depends on what is actually required. It doesn't necessarily mean phones will suddenly return to being screwed together or that replacement of a battery won't require a new seal gasket or other actions to ensure water resistance. Nor does it mean the battery will be a separate component. It could become part of the back case, much as some Macbook's includes the cover and keyboard as a unit, and be easily replaceable - as a whole unit.
 
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SB1500

Suspended
Dec 31, 2021
147
104
If they do, a lot depends on what is actually required. It doesn't necessarily mean phones will suddenly return to being screwed together or that replacement of a battery won't require a new seal gasket or other actions to ensure water resistance. Nor does it mean the battery will be a separate component. It could become part of the back case, much as some Macbook's includes the cover and keyboard as a unit, and be easily replaceable - as a whole unit.
At best, it will only stop Apple from gluing in the battery (tried removing these on MacBook Pro's before, nightmare and dangerous with the force needed - at least without Apple tools). At worst, they'll say 'that's not good enough' and force Apple to make removable back covers as even screws and exposing the other internals is deemed too much to expect consumers to do...

I don't miss those days when you used to drop your phone and the cover / battery fell out... that stopped with my first iPhone. Going back... not forward (potentially)
 

Fred Zed

macrumors 603
Aug 15, 2019
5,884
6,556
Upstate NY . Was FL.
The concerning thing is, they have the power to do this, unquestioned. And the only thing Apple could do is take it to their high court.

Despite my disagreement with it, USB-C will be handy. The battery thing, not so much for the average person... Just imagine they take it that far. With no objection or listening to the other side, who knows, they might get confident enough to do this then boom, industry and innovation ruined
Yeah indeed. Imagine Samsung coming out with an iOS device 😉
 
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Konrad

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2009
477
137
Bi-continental
“I think Nike, Amazon, Microsoft, Ford etc. would take issue with that.”

No one here cares about it. Women wear stilettos, there is no daily pajama trip to Costco in Europe so Nike has a limited market, Amazon has a strong Chinese competition and doesn't work well in dense vertical urban living model (no porch to drop at), Microsoft is just a software and no one cares ever about having anything Ford.
 

Saturn007

macrumors 68000
Jul 18, 2010
1,600
1,487
Tell that to granny.
LOL! That shopworn sexist trope!

Grannies these days include lawyers, computer scientists, reporters, CPAs, data analysts, investment bankers, astrophysicists, politicians, educators, research scientists, engineers, writers, etc.

They often know their way around computers as well as or better any other demographic — often better given their years of experience on different devices!
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
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“I think Nike, Amazon, Microsoft, Ford etc. would take issue with that.”

No one here cares about it. Women wear stilettos, there is no daily pajama trip to Costco in Europe so Nike has a limited market, Amazon has a strong Chinese competition and doesn't work well in dense vertical urban living model (no porch to drop at), Microsoft is just a software and no one cares ever about having anything Ford.

Well, Nike outsells Adidas the EU brand, Amazon is the largest online marketplace in the EU (And I get deliveries just fine 4 floors up in Lisbon), followed by eBay, MS has the largest OS and office suite share so I guess some do care.

I'll give you Ford but even with a small market share its Puma was the 16th best selling car in Europe. Ford is 7th best selling, with VW and Stellantis having 40% +, none of the rest have more than 10%.

LOL! That shopworn sexist trope!

Grannies these days include lawyers, computer scientists, reporters, CPAs, data analysts, investment bankers, astrophysicists, politicians, educators, research scientists, engineers, writers, etc.

They often know their way around computers as well as or better any other demographic — often better given their years of experience on different devices!

Yea, people seem to thing old age means incapability; forgetting old age and treachery beats youth and energy every time.

Replaceable parts won't be a magic bullet, since the costs and hassles will likely mean most people will simply trash the old item unless it is pretty new. I mean, look a the poster you replied to. The poster seemed willing to put granny out to pasture even though she have many replaceable parts to make here good as new.

We live in a disposable society for the most part, people want the shiny.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,635
2,559
Scandinavia
Contrary to the EU-fanboys on here, Apple (and the industry) don't need to be told to look out for the consumer... they are listening to the consumer. They always have been. It's us, who pay, with our hard earned cash for thinner, faster, more reliable, longer lasting, lower cost phones / tablets / computers. It's Apple (key innovator) and the copycats (Samsung, et. al.) who made the engineering decisions and increased the bar. These things were the likes of laminated screens, built in batteries (multiple batteries to fit into more advanced shapes), removal of some ports that 90% of people don't use on a portable... WE BUY THEM. We voted.
Haha, no that's absolutely not how it works. We voted on the best alternative, but nothing about that signals time value or intrest of individual parts of the product. It's all or nothing.

Alongside financial incentives to make things harder to repair will make it more likely new devices are purchased instead.
Gosh, the EU and its fans fail to respect peoples voting. They decide for us that they represent us all.
The Eu respects people's vote. You should learn how it works.
For the non EU folks here, this is exactly why we left in the UK - because these kind of decisions are made, without the average person knowing, being asked, or voting for them. And while we're on that, these people also are unelected. It's insane. There is lots of good, lots of positive and amazing things behind the EU and the idea of the EU, but there are definitely major flaws and this is one of them. It's a shame it affects Apple (and therefore all of us).
The EU is governed by a dual executive: the Council and the Commission and isn't run by unelected byrocrats, this is how its elected.
  • EU parlament : directly elected.
  • EU council: 27 Directly elected heads of states of every member(+ 2 commission & council president non-voting seets) members The President of the EU Council is elected by the EU Council by a qualified majority for a once-renewable term of two and a half years. The President must report to the European Parliament after each European Council meeting.
  • Council of EU: Minister from memebr state government(elected acording to national rules) and The pesidency of the Council rotates every six months among the governments of EU member states, with the relevant ministers of the respective country holding the Presidency at any given time ensuring the smooth running of the meetings and setting the daily agenda
  • EU commission: where each member state nominates a commissioner (27 ministers) that has to be approved by the European Parliament.
Different voting criteria’s.
  • Simple Majority vote: the majority of precent MEPs vote to approve legislation.
  • Absolute majority vote: Means half of the total number of MEPs (currently 376 out of 751) this is used for electing the President of the European Parliament, approving the Commission, rejecting an act under delegated or implementing powers, etc
  • Qualified majority vote: A qualified majority. This means that a proposal is adopted if it meets two conditions: (a) it is supported by at least 55% of the MEPs voting (not counting abstentions); and (b) it represents at least 65% of the population of the Member States represented by those MEPs. And The European Parliament uses qualified majority voting when voting on amendments proposed by the Council in the second reading of the ordinary legislative procedure. Qualified majority is also the most widely used voting method in the Council. It is used when the Council takes decisions during the ordinary legislative procedure, also known as co-decision. About 80% of all EU legislation is adopted with this procedure
Every government has bureaucrats which are by nature unelected. While the EU has around 33,000 of them, the British government employs over 400,000 civil servants.
...what's that other big power that Apple has to make a slightly different iPhone for again...?

Modular, multiple removable battery, user replaceable screen batteries and phones already exist in the market. They sell in low volume because in reality, nobody really wants that above the advantages of integrated systems as we have.
Not supported by any data and just a correlative relationship with no causative relation. Just as many times android phones have objectively superior capabilities, yet still iPhone is bought by the millions. Could
It be iOS is more important? iOS users can’t pick an iPhone with other capabilities, so those who thinks iOS is important can’t vote on other Apple products.
Arguments in right to repair a la Louiss Rossman are not based in reality. Why does Apple replace your iPhone in store? Because a company, even the size of Apple cannot pay a number of highly skilled micro-soldering engineers, the hours spent doing the repair etc in every retail location... while you wait, with the odds that it's a 50/50 bet if it'll work.
Or hear me out, I can chose to go to another repairman who provides the service and repair the phone on the spot by soldering and being more environmentally friendly and cheaper? While you who wants to send it to Apple and wait a week can do that.
We live in a world where we make things to be recyclable. Because by the time your Mac is 7 years old, for the same money or less, there's a faster, more recyclable, more efficient, energy sparing model that can step in and do the job. Same with cars. Same with any consumer industry today. It's more sensible to give things a defined life, then accept that within 5 years, a better solution (by miles) will exist and be kinder to the planet and usually our wallets too.
It’s always cheaper to repair something than to replace the whole thing. And way cheaper and friendlier to the environment. You could buy a new 2.000$ iMac etc or spend 60$ to repair it and get 5 extra years.

Replace a 1$ chip instead of the entire motherboard for 1.000$. Replace the battery for 60$ instead 1.000$+ for the top case.
Whatever next ? Allowing third party cellular device manufacturers to be able to make iOS devices to compete with Apple ?😂
Lol xD software copyright hasn't changed.
The concerning thing is, they have the power to do this, unquestioned. And the only thing Apple could do is take it to their high court.

Despite my disagreement with it, USB-C will be handy. The battery thing, not so much for the average person... Just imagine they take it that far. With no objection or listening to the other side, who knows, they might get confident enough to do this then boom, industry and innovation ruined
Well they have been part in the discussion with the commission. Mmajor parties that are affected are invited to discuss the legal frameworks. Then it's but up go discussion by the political sides.
At best, it will only stop Apple from gluing in the battery (tried removing these on MacBook Pro's before, nightmare and dangerous with the force needed - at least without Apple tools). At worst, they'll say 'that's not good enough' and force Apple to make removable back covers as even screws and exposing the other internals is deemed too much to expect consumers to do...
or like they did with one of their new computers and putt tape with pull straps
IMG_9646.jpeg

I don't miss those days when you used to drop your phone and the cover / battery fell out... that stopped with my first iPhone. Going back... not forward (potentially)
Again it's not about the consumer. But the device to be easier to repair to counteract wasteful behavior for fully functional devices.
LOL! That shopworn sexist trope!

Grannies these days include lawyers, computer scientists, reporters, CPAs, data analysts, investment bankers, astrophysicists, politicians, educators, research scientists, engineers, writers, etc.

They often know their way around computers as well as or better any other demographic — often better given their years of experience on different devices!
Not at all, but old people tend to be technologically illiterate compared to you Der people. Especially when the majority is casual and not tech savvy consumers. C
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,635
2,559
Scandinavia
Yea, people seem to thing old age means incapability; forgetting old age and treachery beats youth and energy every time.
Not at all, it means as it’s true that older people tend to be technologically illiterate. And as with everyone they can fix their own device if it’s repairable or they can go to an independent/ licensed repair shop.
Replaceable parts won't be a magic bullet, since the costs and hassles will likely mean most people will simply trash the old item unless it is pretty new. I mean, look a the poster you replied to. The poster seemed willing to put granny out to pasture even though she have many replaceable parts to make here good as new.

We live in a disposable society for the most part, people want the shiny.
We live in a disposable society, and we should encourage things to be repaired, reused or replaced as a last resort. I have replaced my devices when repairs are too costly to do compared to purchasing a new device, and that’s because of apples outrageous repair costs.
LOL! That shopworn sexist trope!

Grannies these days include lawyers, computer scientists, reporters, CPAs, data analysts, investment bankers, astrophysicists, politicians, educators, research scientists, engineers, writers, etc.

They often know their way around computers as well as or better any other demographic — often better given their years of experience on different devices!
Every generation have tech savvy people. It’s a question of illiterate people to get help them to for a reasonable prices instead of being forced to go to the manufacturer with expensive repair costs they don’t necessarily need to pay.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
4,903
Not at all, it means as it’s true that older people tend to be technologically illiterate. And as with everyone they can fix their own device if it’s repairable or they can go to an independent/ licensed repair shop.
I get your point but, IMHO, being able to use Twitter or add emojis doesn’t make one technology literate, any more than the ability to drive a manual makes you mechanically inclined.

You have learned a skill you find useful which requires no or little technical knowledge.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,635
2,559
Scandinavia
I get your point but, IMHO, being able to use Twitter or add emojis doesn’t make one technology literate, any more than the ability to drive a manual makes you mechanically inclined.

You have learned a skill you find useful which requires no or little technical knowledge.
Sure thing, but I’m talking about people who can code, who have the curiosity and ability to open up things to tinker with them, to want to fix things or just learn how they work. The vast majority are young people.

Especially when it comes to being cheap. Older people can most of the time pay for it anyway or the things they thinkerd with have long since gone out of technological relevancy.

But the ones who are technologically literate today of the older generation is because things was fixable 30 years ago. But today more people will grow up illiterate with no deeper knowledge than changing the protective case on their phone if everything’s locked down for their own security.
 

Konrad

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2009
477
137
Bi-continental
Well, Nike outsells Adidas the EU brand, Amazon is the largest online marketplace in the EU (And I get deliveries just fine 4 floors up in Lisbon), followed by eBay, MS has the largest OS and office suite share so I guess some do care.

I'll give you Ford but even with a small market share its Puma was the 16th best selling car in Europe. Ford is 7th best selling, with VW and Stellantis having 40% +, none of the rest have more than 10%.

We could go on like this forever. Amazon, despite being initially created in the US peddles mostly Chinese-made products. Yes, in the US the Ford F-150 was, is(?) the best selling car, but in reality it is a truck. No, the American brands are not exactly on par with what Europe offers. You may notice that Toyota, BMW and Mercedes, Airbus have significant manufacturing operations in the US. Stellantis is a mess and they cannot get their act together. In the US everyone wants something from Europe and Europeans are not exactly interested in anything other than occasional Kentucky bourbon and an iPhone. Portuguese market is irrelevant due to its size, sure everyone will deliver to your forth floor but that’s not the point. Can you get Portuguese sardines from AMA on in the US?
 

TracerAnalog

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2012
796
1,462
If I'm interpreting this right (which is a bit hard due to the usual vagueness of these laws) it would have more impact on the type of screws Apple uses than anything. With regular screw types you wouldn't need any special tooling and "anyone" could open and replace batteries.

Apple batteries usually have pull tabs that releases the glued battery just by using your hands. So that wouldn't be a problem.

There are probably some loop holes that will be explored as per usual.
The regulation states removable en replaceable, making it clear that they want a return to easily swappable batteries. I just hope they will stay away from later on standardizing said batteries😅
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,635
2,559
Scandinavia
The regulation states removable en replaceable, making it clear that they want a return to easily swappable batteries. I just hope they will stay away from later on standardizing said batteries😅
It clearly states no specialized tools unless provided for free or solvents to remove glue etc.

It must be replaceable by a layperson.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It appears to allow the use of a DIY lit to do replacements, so it may not be as easy as pop out/pop in; and the DIY kit offered today may meet the reg.
Apples DIY kit is as far away as you can legally be.
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,897
4,903
It clearly states no specialized tools unless provided for free or solvents to remove glue etc.

It must be replaceable by a layperson.

Apples DIY kit is as far away as you can legally be.
How so? Apple could simply include the cost of shipping in the replaced component price and ship both ways for free, and only charge if not returned.

Or, they could design a cheap disposable kit and include that in the component price.

If you bought 3rd party products they should have to include the required tools.
 
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