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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
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May 3, 2014
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My first "good" DSLR was my D800, bought in 2017, and I've used it a lot since then. About a year ago, I supplemented it with a D810. The D810 is on paper similar to the D800, but is in every way a better camera(quieter, more ergonomic, sharper) so it has become my main camera. Generally my walk-around 2 lens kit is a normal zoom(either 24-70mm f/2.8 AF-S or 24-120 f/4 VR depending on how much weight I plan on carrying) on the D810 and an ultra-wide of some sort or another(ideally 14-24mm f/2.8 if I feel like it, sometimes the wimpy little 10-20mm AF-P VR, sometimes the 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5, sometimes a 20mm f/4 prime) on the D800.

I also use a D3s for action, and a Df for MF lenses, crazy low-light sensitivity, and light weight.

A couple of things are on my mind now. One is that I've been doing more action lately, and I'm finding the D3s a bit lacking-the focus tracking in particular seems to get confused. I've mostly been using a 70-200mm f/2.8 VR(I) with it, but also sometimes a 300mm f/4D AF-S. The latter isn't a focusing speed demon, and even though the former is a couple of generations old it's still easily the fastest focusing lens I own.

All of that aside, I've been saying for a while that the D850 is my next logical upgrade. It offers a lot over the D810, but among the other things appealing to me is that it has the D5 AF module, although I've seen mixed reports that it doesn't track as well as the D5. I HAD a D500, and sold it because it was a bit of a one trick pony for me, but found I could track Birds-in-flight well with the 300mm f/4 with it.

The D850 with a grip gives me the same frame rate as the D3s, probably roughly equal high ISO performance, and of course that same AF module I know from the D500.

Also on the table is the D4. I know the sensor well and it's phenomenal. The AF module I think is the same as the D800/D810, although presumably the same inferior tracking vs. the D4 probably applies. I've never actually tried action with one of those cameras(the D800 probably has too slow of a frame rate for me to be happy-I think the D810 is a bit better), but I'm guessing that could at least give me a preview of the AF.

Mirrorless really isn't on the table for me. Also, I don't want another D500.

Can anyone give me some thoughts on these options? The D4 has the advantage of being about half the price, but it's also kind of a limited use camera for me. I MIGHT be able to swing a D5, but I'd be in the same boat. I'm really leaning toward a D850+grip being my best bet.

Am I overlooking another option here?
 

mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
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What kind of action do you shoot? Why are you ruling out mirrorless? (this may be answered by the first question)

The D850 is arguably the best dSLR ever made but it’s getting old now.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
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May 3, 2014
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Kentucky
Action wise-nothing seriously, but occasionally birds in flight and amateur/recreation family sports games. Nothing where it's make or break.

Mirrorless-I feel like to get the full benefit of it, you need native lenses, and I'm not really ready for completely re-investing in a system. That's especially true because there's not the HUGE backlog of older generation lenses that makes getting old but still good pro stuff viable(like my 70-200mm that's two previous generations and 24-70 that's the previous generation).

Plus, as you probably know, I still like to shoot film, and with a DSLR kit I can easily stick my F6 in the bag and all of my high end glass is 100% compatible with it as is most of my legacy glass(the latter to the same degree as the D800/D810).

Everything I know about the D850 is that it's incredible, and I've played with them in stores before. I THINK it's the easy decision for me because it effectively replaces two cameras(D3s completely, would probably retire my D800 and bump the D810 down to the secondary body role).

The D4 does appeal to me, though, because I've said this before and anyone who has ever used one I think will agree-in Nikon land nothing handles like the single digit bodies. I usually can't get them until they're pretty long in the tooth, although D4s are where I could do it and the D5 is realistically in reach(just barely).

Right now there's a D850 and a 300mm f/2.8 AF-S II sitting in my cart at KEH, although I'm really, really teetering on this decision. I also am going to be visiting some of my old(formerly) local haunts in a few weeks and if any of them have one of either in stock I'll gladly buy from them. I did send Chuck(Chuck Rubin Photo) a message on Facebook and he said no to the D850, but didn't ask about a 300 f/2.8 and I have one more store to ask.
 
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mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
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Action wise-nothing seriously, but occasionally birds in flight and amateur/recreation family sports games. Nothing where it's make or break.

Mirrorless-I feel like to get the full benefit of it, you need native lenses, and I'm not really ready for completely re-investing in a system. That's especially true because there's not the HUGE backlog of older generation lenses that makes getting old but still good pro stuff viable(like my 70-200mm that's two previous generations and 24-70 that's the previous generation).

Plus, as you probably know, I still like to shoot film, and with a DSLR kit I can easily stick my F6 in the bag and all of my high end glass is 100% compatible with it as is most of my legacy glass(the latter to the same degree as the D800/D810).

Everything I know about the D850 is that it's incredible, and I've played with them in stores before. I THINK it's the easy decision for me because it effectively replaces two cameras(D3s completely, would probably retire my D800 and bump the D810 down to the secondary body role).

The D4 does appeal to me, though, because I've said this before and anyone who has ever used one I think will agree-in Nikon land nothing handles like the single digit bodies. I usually can't get them until they're pretty long in the tooth, although D4s are where I could do it and the D5 is realistically in reach(just barely).

Right now there's a D850 and a 300mm f/2.8 AF-S II sitting in my cart at KEH, although I'm really, really teetering on this decision. I also am going to be visiting some of my old(formerly) local haunts in a few weeks and if any of them have one of either in stock I'll gladly buy from them. I did send Chuck(Chuck Rubin Photo) a message on Facebook and he said no to the D850, but didn't ask about a 300 f/2.8 and I have one more store to ask.
A lot of the old but modern glass works as well or better on the Z series with the adapter, but you probably have or would want lenses that would have to go to manual focus on the Z, so I can see how that's a consideration. You definitely don't *have* to invest in new glass if you don't want to.

I don't know enough about the DX series of cameras to know the differences between the D4 & D5. I used my old D700 the other day and it just feels like a clunker next to my Zs but I have small hands. The D700 ranks probably as my all time favorite camera, even though now I prefer my Zs. There's a lot of nostalgia wrapped in my D700 and I won't ever get rid of it (I gave it to my son for a bit, but he gave it back to me).

From what I know of you I don't think you're quite to mirrorless yet. ? So I'd probably pick the D850 for you because I don't think you need the "sport" part of the DX series.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
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May 3, 2014
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You won’t at all be disappointed in the d850. It’s an exceptional camera and a well rounded one at that.

Thanks, that's where I'm heavily leaning.

A lot of the old but modern glass works as well or better on the Z series with the adapter, but you probably have or would want lenses that would have to go to manual focus on the Z, so I can see how that's a consideration. You definitely don't *have* to invest in new glass if you don't want to.

I don't know enough about the DX series of cameras to know the differences between the D4 & D5. I used my old D700 the other day and it just feels like a clunker next to my Zs but I have small hands. The D700 ranks probably as my all time favorite camera, even though now I prefer my Zs. There's a lot of nostalgia wrapped in my D700 and I won't ever get rid of it (I gave it to my son for a bit, but he gave it back to me).

From what I know of you I don't think you're quite to mirrorless yet. ? So I'd probably pick the D850 for you because I don't think you need the "sport" part of the DX series.

Everything I've heard about the FTZ is great, although it has a few hold-ups for me. One is that it lacks AI feeler tab, so there's no manual focus(AI) lens metering for me, or at least not at full aperture. That's something I get on all four of my currently used DSLRs, and something I'd miss. Also, maybe you can confirm this, but I've heard anecdotally that lenses like the 70-200mm f/2.8 still focus faster on DSLRs than they do with the FTZ adapter, but I admit to not having kept super close track of that. The other hold up too is I still use some screwdriver focusing lenses, and of course those won't AF on the FTZ. I've replaced most of them with newer equivalents, but still use a couple like the Micro-Nikkor 100mm f/2.8D. I actually owned the 100mm AF-S VR for a while, but for serious macro use find the D version in every way superior and also I found it sharper at macro distances. Nikon has a bad habit, going back to the early days, of compromising the "macro" abilities of their macro lenses for better performance near infinity. It happened a couple of times with the 55mm manual focus in particular, where my testing and anyone else who's ever tested finds the old f/3.5 version(whether Auto-NIKKOR or AI) better at macro distances than the f/2.8 AI-S, and this is splitting hairs but I find my compensating aperture 55mm f/3.5 better at 1:10 and higher magnification than either of my later non-compensating lenses.

But yes, I think the D850 is where I should go and where I'm leaning heavily.

Next camera? Next camera? I just bought a camera a few months ago. I won’t upgrade unless it breaks or for a long time. Camera does everything I need and more so why fix it?

Out of curiosity, what value does this comment add to the discussion? This post is because I've identified weaknesses in my current equipment.

We know(trust me, we REALLY know) that you're happy with your camera. I'm talking here about cameras that the oldest one I'm looking to replace is 10 years old, and still does its job but is showing its age. What bearing does your decision to not want to replace yours have on my wanting to shop for something new?
 

mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
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Thanks, that's where I'm heavily leaning.



Everything I've heard about the FTZ is great, although it has a few hold-ups for me. One is that it lacks AI feeler tab, so there's no manual focus(AI) lens metering for me, or at least not at full aperture. That's something I get on all four of my currently used DSLRs, and something I'd miss. Also, maybe you can confirm this, but I've heard anecdotally that lenses like the 70-200mm f/2.8 still focus faster on DSLRs than they do with the FTZ adapter, but I admit to not having kept super close track of that. The other hold up too is I still use some screwdriver focusing lenses, and of course those won't AF on the FTZ. I've replaced most of them with newer equivalents, but still use a couple like the Micro-Nikkor 100mm f/2.8D. I actually owned the 100mm AF-S VR for a while, but for serious macro use find the D version in every way superior and also I found it sharper at macro distances. Nikon has a bad habit, going back to the early days, of compromising the "macro" abilities of their macro lenses for better performance near infinity. It happened a couple of times with the 55mm manual focus in particular, where my testing and anyone else who's ever tested finds the old f/3.5 version(whether Auto-NIKKOR or AI) better at macro distances than the f/2.8 AI-S, and this is splitting hairs but I find my compensating aperture 55mm f/3.5 better at 1:10 and higher magnification than either of my later non-compensating lenses.

But yes, I think the D850 is where I should go and where I'm leaning heavily.



Out of curiosity, what value does this comment add to the discussion? This post is because I've identified weaknesses in my current equipment.

We know(trust me, we REALLY know) that you're happy with your camera. I'm talking here about cameras that the oldest one I'm looking to replace is 10 years old, and still does its job but is showing its age. What bearing does your decision to not want to replace yours have on my wanting to shop for something new?
So yes, your vintage lenses are definitely an issue with the Z series, which is why I think you personally probably should stick to the D cameras.

I have an 85mm D lens that does not AF on my Z series and it's the only one I had that wasn't compatible (in terms of focusing). All my other F mount lenses I feel are a lot faster on my Z cameras. The AF system as a whole is much more robust on the Z series and the D800 I found was rather slow overall (I shot with a D800 as my main camera for about seven years). I have way more keepers in terms of in-focus images for my kids' sports (lacrosse and swim) on my Z series (even the first gen Z6) than I ever did with my D800, and that's just with single point and manually tracking them. I rarely ever use the built in tracking methods. Mostly I've never tried to learn those and stick to the old-fashioned method. ?

You know a lot more about Nikon vintage lenses and how a camera actually works than I do, so your comment about the manual focus lens metering sort of is over my head. I will say that the 85D does meter through the FTZ, just not focus (I just mounted it to check). But I think you are going back another generation or two of lenses that will neither focus nor meter.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
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D850 is an awesome camera. Personally I’d choose that over the D5/6 if you are sticking with f-Mount.
I think all my lenses will work with a ztof adapter, but I’m in no rush.
 

deep diver

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
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They are both outstanding cameras. There is no wrong choice here. Reading your posts, there is an enthusiasm that comes through when you talk about the D850 that isn't quite there when you talk about the Dx. Ultimately, the best camera is the one you like/love/enjoy the most.
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Definitely go for that D850, which is truly an outstanding camera and which will be able to provide what you are looking for now and what you need..... You've got some wonderful lenses which will be great on it and by adding the 300mm f/2.8 you'll definitely be bringing home a winning combination.

As for buying a mirrorless camera and going with the FTZ adapter and your various lenses......you articulated well the situation which I faced back in 2019, and since in my case I was already pretty fixated on the idea of mirrorless and was no longer considering going with another DSLR, yet had a lot of "legacy" lenses and was concerned that many of them would not function in the same way with an FTZ adapter, I really came to a crossroads. Stick with Nikon and go with its new mirrorless Z system and use the FTZ adapter on the lenses I already had and wait for the native mirrorless lenses to come along (and the roadmap at that time didn't look too promising) or make a big switch and start fresh with another system altogether? I opted for the latter and it has worked out extremely well for me. That said, I'm glad to see that Nikon is now bringing out more and more native lenses and additional bodies to their mirrorless line. More power to them!
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
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May 3, 2014
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You've got some wonderful lenses which will be great on it and by adding the 300mm f/2.8 you'll definitely be bringing home a winning combination.

Thanks for your thoughts and for articulating the mirrorless situation. The thing for me is if I went that route I'd want Nikons just because I like "how they think" and a lot of familiarity with controls. Still, though, the FTZ issues esp. with MF lenses are there.

As for my lenses-I maybe have too many :) . Still, though, I'm actually rethinking the 300mm f/2.8. It's such a "sexy" lens and one of those things(in any format) I've lusted after as long as I've understood what one is.

With that said, I've been looking at the 80-400 today and...well...there's a good argument to be made for it. I know it's slower than either my 70-200 or the 300 f/2.8 would be, but the one lens solution is appealing and there's a lot of comments out on the web about it being a great action lens.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
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Behind the Lens, UK
Thanks for your thoughts and for articulating the mirrorless situation. The thing for me is if I went that route I'd want Nikons just because I like "how they think" and a lot of familiarity with controls. Still, though, the FTZ issues esp. with MF lenses are there.

As for my lenses-I maybe have too many :) . Still, though, I'm actually rethinking the 300mm f/2.8. It's such a "sexy" lens and one of those things(in any format) I've lusted after as long as I've understood what one is.

With that said, I've been looking at the 80-400 today and...well...there's a good argument to be made for it. I know it's slower than either my 70-200 or the 300 f/2.8 would be, but the one lens solution is appealing and there's a lot of comments out on the web about it being a great action lens.
The 200-500mm is not the fastest, but I like having the reach. But the price difference to the 500mm f4 is way out of my price range. I put the 2xTC on the 70-200 f2.8 when I want the reach but travel light.
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Thanks for your thoughts and for articulating the mirrorless situation. The thing for me is if I went that route I'd want Nikons just because I like "how they think" and a lot of familiarity with controls. Still, though, the FTZ issues esp. with MF lenses are there.

As for my lenses-I maybe have too many :) . Still, though, I'm actually rethinking the 300mm f/2.8. It's such a "sexy" lens and one of those things(in any format) I've lusted after as long as I've understood what one is.

With that said, I've been looking at the 80-400 today and...well...there's a good argument to be made for it. I know it's slower than either my 70-200 or the 300 f/2.8 would be, but the one lens solution is appealing and there's a lot of comments out on the web about it being a great action lens.
At the time I was making my decision Nikon had only just really begun with their mirrorless line and I had delayed my decision-making until those cameras and lenses were finally out on the market and in users' hands because I'd been a "Nikon Girl" for many, many years and the idea of switching systems seemed daunting. The camera bodies themselves were fine, but my issue quickly showed up: at that time they didn't offer the particular lenses that I would've wanted straightaway as native lenses and there were going to be a lot of compromises when it came to the lenses I had and the FTZ.....

Actually, back then I did have a slight advantage with regard to having some familiarity with Sony, having some years ago gotten the NEX-7 as my first mirrorless camera, and it was followed by the RX100 compact cameras and then the RX10 IV "bridge" camera. They were all somewhat different than plunging into purchasing and using the A7R IV, though, and it did take some time to become accustomed to the different menu, the different settings, the different buttons and layout, etc..... I could handle a Nikon with my eyes shut, I knew where everything was. With the A7R IV it wasn't quite like that and muscle memory interfered from time to time. It took me quite a while to get used to the lens release button on the mount being on the opposite side, for instance! On the Sony, it's on the right. Even now, a year and half later, if I'm absent-minded and thinking about something else when I go to remove a lens my left hand will still automatically go to the left side of the camera body where that button is on a Nikon..... LOL!!!

The 300 f/2.8 is a gem of a lens. I had one and loved it. I also had the older version of the 800-400mm, too, and loved that as well, but for different reasons. The 300 f/2.8 was definitely a lens for the tripod and Wimberley gimbal, no two ways about it; I simply could not handhold that lens. The 80-400mm, though, was a wonderful walk-around lens that I could handhold comfortably. I would put it on the camera when walking around the lake and I also used it extensively when down in Florida lo these many moons ago, even shooting from a boat.

Each of those lenses played their own important role in my earlier digital photography shooting days. Birds and wildlife mainly, no sporting events. The nice thing about the 300 f/2.8 is that it can be used with a teleconverter, too, so that one can actually extend its reach somewhat. Worked great with a 1.4x! Tried the 2x TC on it too but wasn't as happy with the results for some reason (most likely user error and inexperience!). The older 80-400mm could not be used with a TC, but I don't know about the newer version(s). At any rate, either one you choose will be a very nice addition to your lenses and offer more shooting opportunities than you've been experiencing in the past.
 
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deep diver

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Thanks for your thoughts and for articulating the mirrorless situation. The thing for me is if I went that route I'd want Nikons just because I like "how they think" and a lot of familiarity with controls. Still, though, the FTZ issues esp. with MF lenses are there.

As for my lenses-I maybe have too many :) . Still, though, I'm actually rethinking the 300mm f/2.8. It's such a "sexy" lens and one of those things(in any format) I've lusted after as long as I've understood what one is.

With that said, I've been looking at the 80-400 today and...well...there's a good argument to be made for it. I know it's slower than either my 70-200 or the 300 f/2.8 would be, but the one lens solution is appealing and there's a lot of comments out on the web about it being a great action lens.

I have the 80-400. I don't use it as much as I thought I might when I bought it, but I have never been disappointed.
 

bunnspecial

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I have the 80-400. I don't use it as much as I thought I might when I bought it, but I have never been disappointed.

Thanks for the comment on it. What I've read compares the current version(G) to the 70-200 2.8 in focus speed, which is a good endorsement for me, and of course is a super useful zoom range.

I THINK I've narrowed it down to a D850+80-400. I'm going to have to get the D850 from KEH or elsewhere since apparently no one has them in stock. One of my favorite formerly local shops has an 80-400, though, so I'll likely get theirs. I just need to work out funding!
 
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deep diver

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Thanks for the comment on it. What I've read compares the current version(G) to the 70-200 2.8 in focus speed, which is a good endorsement for me, and of course is a super useful zoom range.

I'm not sure what iteration I have. I got it in about 2012. I shot a high school football game with it one time and the focus speed was fine for what I needed.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
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May 3, 2014
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So yes, your vintage lenses are definitely an issue with the Z series, which is why I think you personally probably should stick to the D cameras.

I have an 85mm D lens that does not AF on my Z series and it's the only one I had that wasn't compatible (in terms of focusing). All my other F mount lenses I feel are a lot faster on my Z cameras. The AF system as a whole is much more robust on the Z series and the D800 I found was rather slow overall (I shot with a D800 as my main camera for about seven years). I have way more keepers in terms of in-focus images for my kids' sports (lacrosse and swim) on my Z series (even the first gen Z6) than I ever did with my D800, and that's just with single point and manually tracking them. I rarely ever use the built in tracking methods. Mostly I've never tried to learn those and stick to the old-fashioned method. ?

You know a lot more about Nikon vintage lenses and how a camera actually works than I do, so your comment about the manual focus lens metering sort of is over my head. I will say that the 85D does meter through the FTZ, just not focus (I just mounted it to check). But I think you are going back another generation or two of lenses that will neither focus nor meter.

Just getting back into some of the other comments, and this may be more than you cared to know but here's the story on metering, and since I like to ramble maybe what some would call a "beginning of time" answer.

The Nikon F was introduced in 1959, and with it a series of lenses called Auto-NIKKOR lenses. The F was a revolutionary camera. It had a a simple to use bayonet mount, full aperture viewing, could integrate what's called a fully coupled meter(more on that in a second), a metal foil shutter with a 1/1000 max speed, and an instant return mirror(drops back down after the shutter closes unlike, say, a Hasselblad where the mirror stays up until the film is advanced/camera cocked). It was also highly modular, and could be fitted with different focusing screens, viewfinders, film backs, and even a motor drive to configure it for different situations. None of these features was new, and they could all be found on previous cameras, but the F was the first with this combination of features and backed it up with a comprehensive selection of lenses.

The F did not have a built in meter, but was designed to be compatible with one. The earliest clipped on to the front of the camera with a selenium cell, while the next was integrated into the prism housing, then evolved to read off the focusing screen(TTL metering), then modified it so that the center of the screen influenced exposure more so than the outer edges(what we now call center weighted averaging metering).

These meters were all "coupled." What that meant is that the meter was told the ASA of the film(by manually setting it on the meter), the shutter speed by physically resting on top of the shutter speed dial, and the aperture by reading off the lens(more on this in a second). These fed into a simple circuit with a power source, photo cell, and galvanometer. Basically, when the settings would result in underexposure, the needle would be at the "rest" position, if overexposure the needle would peg at its maximum value, and if "just right" it would center over the range of movement against a big pointer.

The way the lens communicated its set aperture to the meter was something of a hallmark of Nikon in the early years. Basically, the lenses have a set of "bunny ears"(I think properly called a meter coupling shoe or often called a metering fork) that are mounted on the aperture ring at exactly f/5.6. A pin on the meter fits into this, and the meter knows where the aperture ring is on the lens.

As a bit of a side note too, when adjusting exposure, to center the metering needle you would turn the aperture ring toward the direction you needed the needle to move. ALL aperture rings on Nikon lenses move the same direction. Nikon meters in manual mode still default to + on the right and - on the left. It's been that way since the first Nikon F meters, and was logical in that context.

In any case, the whole fork and pin thing worked but had its downsides. Since the fork is always at f/5.6, the meter knows the aperture set on the lens. Still, though, in order for a TTL meter to calculate exposure properly, it needs to know how far the lens is set down from its maximum aperture. The only way to achieve that with the Nikon-type system is to tell the meter what the maximum aperture is. On the first generation TTL meters, you had to set this on a dial on the meter.

Nikon got clever and figured out a less tedious way of doing this. Basically, they developed a mechanical system whereby if, after mounting, you twisted the aperture ring to its maximum aperture, the meter would "learn" it. When a new lens was mounted, the mechanism was reset and this was done again. This gets the term sometimes of "Semi-auto indexing." It first showed up on the Nikkormat FTN, but carried over to the Nikon F FTN finder along with the F2 Photomic, Photomic S, and Photomic SB finders. This also gave rise to a familiar sight for Nikon users at the time. Basically, after mounting, on an F or F2 body, you'd generally twist the aperture ring to the minimum aperture to both reset the indexing mechanism and also "grab" the metering pin. You'd then twist it back to minimum(along with a distinctive clicking/ratcheting sound from the camera), after which it would be ready to go. It becomes second nature, but isn't necessarily intuitive and there again was mostly known as a "Nikon thing" to have to do this. Also, as a bit of a sidenote, the Nikkormat bodies(which were the second tier bodies) are even more of a pain since you have to manually reset the metering pin and then set the lens to f/5.6 before mounting to align the pen right. The F and F2 meters work with the lens mounted set to any aperture, although they tend to twist to f/5.6 when dismounting.

Other makers, Canon in particular, had figured out how to get full aperture coupled metering without this, so Nikon finally had to grudgingly in the late 1970s give in. Backward compatibility remains a core of Nikons(well with some exceptions) so they designed a system that would work with the existing lens mount. Essentially, what was done first of all was to construct lenses with a "step" on the aperture ring facing the lens mount. Then, a tab that moved concentric with the lens mount was added. The tab would rest against the "step". The step location varied such that when the lens was set to maximum aperture, the tab would be at its rest position. The meter, then, could know if the lens was set to wide open, or how many stops down from wide open it was set. This system was called the "AI" or "Automatic Indexing System." If you look at the alphabet soup on a Nikon lens with an aperture ring, you should still see the letters AI on it even if it incorporates a bunch of other technology. The tab remains on high end DSLRs. It is there on your D700.

Of note also, with the switch to auto-indexing came a bit of a legacy problem. The previous non-AI lenses had their aperture rings fully extended down to the lens mount where they can hit and even break the AI tab. Nikon recognized in the early days that a lot of folks would still have non-AI lenses, and made provisions for them. One of them is that the first AI cameras allow the tab to be moved out of the way. On the F2A/F2AS the tab is pushed up into the metering head. The EL2, FE, FM, F3, and F4 all have a tab that can be "folded over" to get out of the way. This could be fitted by the factory to the F5 and F6 also(I am sorry I didn't get mine done, but maybe should get on it and see if they still do). The Df remains the only DSLR to have this. Also, most manual focus Nikkors have a metering shoe on them, so they will continue to meter just fine with non-AI cameras.

Incidentally, also, the AI system and aperture ring caused issues with weather sealing since it left a gap at the lens mount. Since G lenses eliminate the aperture ring, they can have a complete O-ring seal around the mount.

With AF and computerized cameras came a new way of thinking of things. Cameras that offer a "P" mode or "S" mode have to be able to set the aperture using the stop-down lever on the lens(the one inside the mount). Along with the introduction of the FA, Nikon's first multi-mode shutter priority and program camera, came "AI-s" lenses, which linearized the motion of the aperture lever for this. This AI-s principle is still used on modern non-E lenses to set the aperture. The AF era also brought something else-CPUs in lenses, and aperture control(even in M and A modes) from the camera body. At first this was only relegated to lower tier bodies, or at least the M and A modes being controlled from them, but the F5 was the turning point and introduced the two dial control layout we know today. The CPU, among other things, communicates information about the lens to the camera like its maximum aperture and focal length(both used for metering).

Unless you're a weirdo like me who changes it, if you have modern lenses with an aperture ring and only use modern bodies, you've likely never moved the ring off its minimum setting. They have a lock to allow for this, and typically if you bump it off the minimum setting it gives you an error.

Because of that, a lot of lower end bodies just said "forget the aperture feeler-we just need to make sure the lens is set to minimum aperture" and just have a simple switch to tell that. This is what the FTZ adapter has(although I'd not call it low end). BTW, again since I'm a weirdo, on bodies that are capable of it I use the aperture ring to set the aperture(which actually gives more consistent exposure, but that's another topic of discussion). The Z cameras can't meter with manual focus lenses for this reason(unless they do stop-down metering-I don't know that).

With all of that said, though, because I have a bunch of MF lenses I really like and use, I want a body that can meter them directly as they were meant to be used.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,989
56,004
Behind the Lens, UK
Just getting back into some of the other comments, and this may be more than you cared to know but here's the story on metering, and since I like to ramble maybe what some would call a "beginning of time" answer.

The Nikon F was introduced in 1959, and with it a series of lenses called Auto-NIKKOR lenses. The F was a revolutionary camera. It had a a simple to use bayonet mount, full aperture viewing, could integrate what's called a fully coupled meter(more on that in a second), a metal foil shutter with a 1/1000 max speed, and an instant return mirror(drops back down after the shutter closes unlike, say, a Hasselblad where the mirror stays up until the film is advanced/camera cocked). It was also highly modular, and could be fitted with different focusing screens, viewfinders, film backs, and even a motor drive to configure it for different situations. None of these features was new, and they could all be found on previous cameras, but the F was the first with this combination of features and backed it up with a comprehensive selection of lenses.

The F did not have a built in meter, but was designed to be compatible with one. The earliest clipped on to the front of the camera with a selenium cell, while the next was integrated into the prism housing, then evolved to read off the focusing screen(TTL metering), then modified it so that the center of the screen influenced exposure more so than the outer edges(what we now call center weighted averaging metering).

These meters were all "coupled." What that meant is that the meter was told the ASA of the film(by manually setting it on the meter), the shutter speed by physically resting on top of the shutter speed dial, and the aperture by reading off the lens(more on this in a second). These fed into a simple circuit with a power source, photo cell, and galvanometer. Basically, when the settings would result in underexposure, the needle would be at the "rest" position, if overexposure the needle would peg at its maximum value, and if "just right" it would center over the range of movement against a big pointer.

The way the lens communicated its set aperture to the meter was something of a hallmark of Nikon in the early years. Basically, the lenses have a set of "bunny ears"(I think properly called a meter coupling shoe or often called a metering fork) that are mounted on the aperture ring at exactly f/5.6. A pin on the meter fits into this, and the meter knows where the aperture ring is on the lens.

As a bit of a side note too, when adjusting exposure, to center the metering needle you would turn the aperture ring toward the direction you needed the needle to move. ALL aperture rings on Nikon lenses move the same direction. Nikon meters in manual mode still default to + on the right and - on the left. It's been that way since the first Nikon F meters, and was logical in that context.

In any case, the whole fork and pin thing worked but had its downsides. Since the fork is always at f/5.6, the meter knows the aperture set on the lens. Still, though, in order for a TTL meter to calculate exposure properly, it needs to know how far the lens is set down from its maximum aperture. The only way to achieve that with the Nikon-type system is to tell the meter what the maximum aperture is. On the first generation TTL meters, you had to set this on a dial on the meter.

Nikon got clever and figured out a less tedious way of doing this. Basically, they developed a mechanical system whereby if, after mounting, you twisted the aperture ring to its maximum aperture, the meter would "learn" it. When a new lens was mounted, the mechanism was reset and this was done again. This gets the term sometimes of "Semi-auto indexing." It first showed up on the Nikkormat FTN, but carried over to the Nikon F FTN finder along with the F2 Photomic, Photomic S, and Photomic SB finders. This also gave rise to a familiar sight for Nikon users at the time. Basically, after mounting, on an F or F2 body, you'd generally twist the aperture ring to the minimum aperture to both reset the indexing mechanism and also "grab" the metering pin. You'd then twist it back to minimum(along with a distinctive clicking/ratcheting sound from the camera), after which it would be ready to go. It becomes second nature, but isn't necessarily intuitive and there again was mostly known as a "Nikon thing" to have to do this. Also, as a bit of a sidenote, the Nikkormat bodies(which were the second tier bodies) are even more of a pain since you have to manually reset the metering pin and then set the lens to f/5.6 before mounting to align the pen right. The F and F2 meters work with the lens mounted set to any aperture, although they tend to twist to f/5.6 when dismounting.

Other makers, Canon in particular, had figured out how to get full aperture coupled metering without this, so Nikon finally had to grudgingly in the late 1970s give in. Backward compatibility remains a core of Nikons(well with some exceptions) so they designed a system that would work with the existing lens mount. Essentially, what was done first of all was to construct lenses with a "step" on the aperture ring facing the lens mount. Then, a tab that moved concentric with the lens mount was added. The tab would rest against the "step". The step location varied such that when the lens was set to maximum aperture, the tab would be at its rest position. The meter, then, could know if the lens was set to wide open, or how many stops down from wide open it was set. This system was called the "AI" or "Automatic Indexing System." If you look at the alphabet soup on a Nikon lens with an aperture ring, you should still see the letters AI on it even if it incorporates a bunch of other technology. The tab remains on high end DSLRs. It is there on your D700.

Of note also, with the switch to auto-indexing came a bit of a legacy problem. The previous non-AI lenses had their aperture rings fully extended down to the lens mount where they can hit and even break the AI tab. Nikon recognized in the early days that a lot of folks would still have non-AI lenses, and made provisions for them. One of them is that the first AI cameras allow the tab to be moved out of the way. On the F2A/F2AS the tab is pushed up into the metering head. The EL2, FE, FM, F3, and F4 all have a tab that can be "folded over" to get out of the way. This could be fitted by the factory to the F5 and F6 also(I am sorry I didn't get mine done, but maybe should get on it and see if they still do). The Df remains the only DSLR to have this. Also, most manual focus Nikkors have a metering shoe on them, so they will continue to meter just fine with non-AI cameras.

Incidentally, also, the AI system and aperture ring caused issues with weather sealing since it left a gap at the lens mount. Since G lenses eliminate the aperture ring, they can have a complete O-ring seal around the mount.

With AF and computerized cameras came a new way of thinking of things. Cameras that offer a "P" mode or "S" mode have to be able to set the aperture using the stop-down lever on the lens(the one inside the mount). Along with the introduction of the FA, Nikon's first multi-mode shutter priority and program camera, came "AI-s" lenses, which linearized the motion of the aperture lever for this. This AI-s principle is still used on modern non-E lenses to set the aperture. The AF era also brought something else-CPUs in lenses, and aperture control(even in M and A modes) from the camera body. At first this was only relegated to lower tier bodies, or at least the M and A modes being controlled from them, but the F5 was the turning point and introduced the two dial control layout we know today. The CPU, among other things, communicates information about the lens to the camera like its maximum aperture and focal length(both used for metering).

Unless you're a weirdo like me who changes it, if you have modern lenses with an aperture ring and only use modern bodies, you've likely never moved the ring off its minimum setting. They have a lock to allow for this, and typically if you bump it off the minimum setting it gives you an error.

Because of that, a lot of lower end bodies just said "forget the aperture feeler-we just need to make sure the lens is set to minimum aperture" and just have a simple switch to tell that. This is what the FTZ adapter has(although I'd not call it low end). BTW, again since I'm a weirdo, on bodies that are capable of it I use the aperture ring to set the aperture(which actually gives more consistent exposure, but that's another topic of discussion). The Z cameras can't meter with manual focus lenses for this reason(unless they do stop-down metering-I don't know that).

With all of that said, though, because I have a bunch of MF lenses I really like and use, I want a body that can meter them directly as they were meant to be used.
We have it so easy now don’t we?
 

deep diver

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
2,711
4,520
Philadelphia.
Just getting back into some of the other comments, and this may be more than you cared to know but here's the story on metering, and since I like to ramble maybe what some would call a "beginning of time" answer.

The Nikon F was introduced in 1959, and with it a series of lenses called Auto-NIKKOR lenses. The F was a revolutionary camera. It had a a simple to use bayonet mount, full aperture viewing, could integrate what's called a fully coupled meter(more on that in a second), a metal foil shutter with a 1/1000 max speed, and an instant return mirror(drops back down after the shutter closes unlike, say, a Hasselblad where the mirror stays up until the film is advanced/camera cocked). It was also highly modular, and could be fitted with different focusing screens, viewfinders, film backs, and even a motor drive to configure it for different situations. None of these features was new, and they could all be found on previous cameras, but the F was the first with this combination of features and backed it up with a comprehensive selection of lenses.

The F did not have a built in meter, but was designed to be compatible with one. The earliest clipped on to the front of the camera with a selenium cell, while the next was integrated into the prism housing, then evolved to read off the focusing screen(TTL metering), then modified it so that the center of the screen influenced exposure more so than the outer edges(what we now call center weighted averaging metering).

These meters were all "coupled." What that meant is that the meter was told the ASA of the film(by manually setting it on the meter), the shutter speed by physically resting on top of the shutter speed dial, and the aperture by reading off the lens(more on this in a second). These fed into a simple circuit with a power source, photo cell, and galvanometer. Basically, when the settings would result in underexposure, the needle would be at the "rest" position, if overexposure the needle would peg at its maximum value, and if "just right" it would center over the range of movement against a big pointer.

The way the lens communicated its set aperture to the meter was something of a hallmark of Nikon in the early years. Basically, the lenses have a set of "bunny ears"(I think properly called a meter coupling shoe or often called a metering fork) that are mounted on the aperture ring at exactly f/5.6. A pin on the meter fits into this, and the meter knows where the aperture ring is on the lens.

As a bit of a side note too, when adjusting exposure, to center the metering needle you would turn the aperture ring toward the direction you needed the needle to move. ALL aperture rings on Nikon lenses move the same direction. Nikon meters in manual mode still default to + on the right and - on the left. It's been that way since the first Nikon F meters, and was logical in that context.

In any case, the whole fork and pin thing worked but had its downsides. Since the fork is always at f/5.6, the meter knows the aperture set on the lens. Still, though, in order for a TTL meter to calculate exposure properly, it needs to know how far the lens is set down from its maximum aperture. The only way to achieve that with the Nikon-type system is to tell the meter what the maximum aperture is. On the first generation TTL meters, you had to set this on a dial on the meter.

Nikon got clever and figured out a less tedious way of doing this. Basically, they developed a mechanical system whereby if, after mounting, you twisted the aperture ring to its maximum aperture, the meter would "learn" it. When a new lens was mounted, the mechanism was reset and this was done again. This gets the term sometimes of "Semi-auto indexing." It first showed up on the Nikkormat FTN, but carried over to the Nikon F FTN finder along with the F2 Photomic, Photomic S, and Photomic SB finders. This also gave rise to a familiar sight for Nikon users at the time. Basically, after mounting, on an F or F2 body, you'd generally twist the aperture ring to the minimum aperture to both reset the indexing mechanism and also "grab" the metering pin. You'd then twist it back to minimum(along with a distinctive clicking/ratcheting sound from the camera), after which it would be ready to go. It becomes second nature, but isn't necessarily intuitive and there again was mostly known as a "Nikon thing" to have to do this. Also, as a bit of a sidenote, the Nikkormat bodies(which were the second tier bodies) are even more of a pain since you have to manually reset the metering pin and then set the lens to f/5.6 before mounting to align the pen right. The F and F2 meters work with the lens mounted set to any aperture, although they tend to twist to f/5.6 when dismounting.

Other makers, Canon in particular, had figured out how to get full aperture coupled metering without this, so Nikon finally had to grudgingly in the late 1970s give in. Backward compatibility remains a core of Nikons(well with some exceptions) so they designed a system that would work with the existing lens mount. Essentially, what was done first of all was to construct lenses with a "step" on the aperture ring facing the lens mount. Then, a tab that moved concentric with the lens mount was added. The tab would rest against the "step". The step location varied such that when the lens was set to maximum aperture, the tab would be at its rest position. The meter, then, could know if the lens was set to wide open, or how many stops down from wide open it was set. This system was called the "AI" or "Automatic Indexing System." If you look at the alphabet soup on a Nikon lens with an aperture ring, you should still see the letters AI on it even if it incorporates a bunch of other technology. The tab remains on high end DSLRs. It is there on your D700.

Of note also, with the switch to auto-indexing came a bit of a legacy problem. The previous non-AI lenses had their aperture rings fully extended down to the lens mount where they can hit and even break the AI tab. Nikon recognized in the early days that a lot of folks would still have non-AI lenses, and made provisions for them. One of them is that the first AI cameras allow the tab to be moved out of the way. On the F2A/F2AS the tab is pushed up into the metering head. The EL2, FE, FM, F3, and F4 all have a tab that can be "folded over" to get out of the way. This could be fitted by the factory to the F5 and F6 also(I am sorry I didn't get mine done, but maybe should get on it and see if they still do). The Df remains the only DSLR to have this. Also, most manual focus Nikkors have a metering shoe on them, so they will continue to meter just fine with non-AI cameras.

Incidentally, also, the AI system and aperture ring caused issues with weather sealing since it left a gap at the lens mount. Since G lenses eliminate the aperture ring, they can have a complete O-ring seal around the mount.

With AF and computerized cameras came a new way of thinking of things. Cameras that offer a "P" mode or "S" mode have to be able to set the aperture using the stop-down lever on the lens(the one inside the mount). Along with the introduction of the FA, Nikon's first multi-mode shutter priority and program camera, came "AI-s" lenses, which linearized the motion of the aperture lever for this. This AI-s principle is still used on modern non-E lenses to set the aperture. The AF era also brought something else-CPUs in lenses, and aperture control(even in M and A modes) from the camera body. At first this was only relegated to lower tier bodies, or at least the M and A modes being controlled from them, but the F5 was the turning point and introduced the two dial control layout we know today. The CPU, among other things, communicates information about the lens to the camera like its maximum aperture and focal length(both used for metering).

Unless you're a weirdo like me who changes it, if you have modern lenses with an aperture ring and only use modern bodies, you've likely never moved the ring off its minimum setting. They have a lock to allow for this, and typically if you bump it off the minimum setting it gives you an error.

Because of that, a lot of lower end bodies just said "forget the aperture feeler-we just need to make sure the lens is set to minimum aperture" and just have a simple switch to tell that. This is what the FTZ adapter has(although I'd not call it low end). BTW, again since I'm a weirdo, on bodies that are capable of it I use the aperture ring to set the aperture(which actually gives more consistent exposure, but that's another topic of discussion). The Z cameras can't meter with manual focus lenses for this reason(unless they do stop-down metering-I don't know that).

With all of that said, though, because I have a bunch of MF lenses I really like and use, I want a body that can meter them directly as they were meant to be used.
Thank you for a fantastic tutorial. If this is rambling then I'd love to see you ramble more.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Just getting back into some of the other comments, and this may be more than you cared to know but here's the story on metering, and since I like to ramble maybe what some would call a "beginning of time" answer.

The Nikon F was introduced in 1959, and with it a series of lenses called Auto-NIKKOR lenses. The F was a revolutionary camera. It had a a simple to use bayonet mount, full aperture viewing, could integrate what's called a fully coupled meter(more on that in a second), a metal foil shutter with a 1/1000 max speed, and an instant return mirror(drops back down after the shutter closes unlike, say, a Hasselblad where the mirror stays up until the film is advanced/camera cocked). It was also highly modular, and could be fitted with different focusing screens, viewfinders, film backs, and even a motor drive to configure it for different situations. None of these features was new, and they could all be found on previous cameras, but the F was the first with this combination of features and backed it up with a comprehensive selection of lenses.

The F did not have a built in meter, but was designed to be compatible with one. The earliest clipped on to the front of the camera with a selenium cell, while the next was integrated into the prism housing, then evolved to read off the focusing screen(TTL metering), then modified it so that the center of the screen influenced exposure more so than the outer edges(what we now call center weighted averaging metering).

These meters were all "coupled." What that meant is that the meter was told the ASA of the film(by manually setting it on the meter), the shutter speed by physically resting on top of the shutter speed dial, and the aperture by reading off the lens(more on this in a second). These fed into a simple circuit with a power source, photo cell, and galvanometer. Basically, when the settings would result in underexposure, the needle would be at the "rest" position, if overexposure the needle would peg at its maximum value, and if "just right" it would center over the range of movement against a big pointer.

The way the lens communicated its set aperture to the meter was something of a hallmark of Nikon in the early years. Basically, the lenses have a set of "bunny ears"(I think properly called a meter coupling shoe or often called a metering fork) that are mounted on the aperture ring at exactly f/5.6. A pin on the meter fits into this, and the meter knows where the aperture ring is on the lens.

As a bit of a side note too, when adjusting exposure, to center the metering needle you would turn the aperture ring toward the direction you needed the needle to move. ALL aperture rings on Nikon lenses move the same direction. Nikon meters in manual mode still default to + on the right and - on the left. It's been that way since the first Nikon F meters, and was logical in that context.

In any case, the whole fork and pin thing worked but had its downsides. Since the fork is always at f/5.6, the meter knows the aperture set on the lens. Still, though, in order for a TTL meter to calculate exposure properly, it needs to know how far the lens is set down from its maximum aperture. The only way to achieve that with the Nikon-type system is to tell the meter what the maximum aperture is. On the first generation TTL meters, you had to set this on a dial on the meter.

Nikon got clever and figured out a less tedious way of doing this. Basically, they developed a mechanical system whereby if, after mounting, you twisted the aperture ring to its maximum aperture, the meter would "learn" it. When a new lens was mounted, the mechanism was reset and this was done again. This gets the term sometimes of "Semi-auto indexing." It first showed up on the Nikkormat FTN, but carried over to the Nikon F FTN finder along with the F2 Photomic, Photomic S, and Photomic SB finders. This also gave rise to a familiar sight for Nikon users at the time. Basically, after mounting, on an F or F2 body, you'd generally twist the aperture ring to the minimum aperture to both reset the indexing mechanism and also "grab" the metering pin. You'd then twist it back to minimum(along with a distinctive clicking/ratcheting sound from the camera), after which it would be ready to go. It becomes second nature, but isn't necessarily intuitive and there again was mostly known as a "Nikon thing" to have to do this. Also, as a bit of a sidenote, the Nikkormat bodies(which were the second tier bodies) are even more of a pain since you have to manually reset the metering pin and then set the lens to f/5.6 before mounting to align the pen right. The F and F2 meters work with the lens mounted set to any aperture, although they tend to twist to f/5.6 when dismounting.

Other makers, Canon in particular, had figured out how to get full aperture coupled metering without this, so Nikon finally had to grudgingly in the late 1970s give in. Backward compatibility remains a core of Nikons(well with some exceptions) so they designed a system that would work with the existing lens mount. Essentially, what was done first of all was to construct lenses with a "step" on the aperture ring facing the lens mount. Then, a tab that moved concentric with the lens mount was added. The tab would rest against the "step". The step location varied such that when the lens was set to maximum aperture, the tab would be at its rest position. The meter, then, could know if the lens was set to wide open, or how many stops down from wide open it was set. This system was called the "AI" or "Automatic Indexing System." If you look at the alphabet soup on a Nikon lens with an aperture ring, you should still see the letters AI on it even if it incorporates a bunch of other technology. The tab remains on high end DSLRs. It is there on your D700.

Of note also, with the switch to auto-indexing came a bit of a legacy problem. The previous non-AI lenses had their aperture rings fully extended down to the lens mount where they can hit and even break the AI tab. Nikon recognized in the early days that a lot of folks would still have non-AI lenses, and made provisions for them. One of them is that the first AI cameras allow the tab to be moved out of the way. On the F2A/F2AS the tab is pushed up into the metering head. The EL2, FE, FM, F3, and F4 all have a tab that can be "folded over" to get out of the way. This could be fitted by the factory to the F5 and F6 also(I am sorry I didn't get mine done, but maybe should get on it and see if they still do). The Df remains the only DSLR to have this. Also, most manual focus Nikkors have a metering shoe on them, so they will continue to meter just fine with non-AI cameras.

Incidentally, also, the AI system and aperture ring caused issues with weather sealing since it left a gap at the lens mount. Since G lenses eliminate the aperture ring, they can have a complete O-ring seal around the mount.

With AF and computerized cameras came a new way of thinking of things. Cameras that offer a "P" mode or "S" mode have to be able to set the aperture using the stop-down lever on the lens(the one inside the mount). Along with the introduction of the FA, Nikon's first multi-mode shutter priority and program camera, came "AI-s" lenses, which linearized the motion of the aperture lever for this. This AI-s principle is still used on modern non-E lenses to set the aperture. The AF era also brought something else-CPUs in lenses, and aperture control(even in M and A modes) from the camera body. At first this was only relegated to lower tier bodies, or at least the M and A modes being controlled from them, but the F5 was the turning point and introduced the two dial control layout we know today. The CPU, among other things, communicates information about the lens to the camera like its maximum aperture and focal length(both used for metering).

Unless you're a weirdo like me who changes it, if you have modern lenses with an aperture ring and only use modern bodies, you've likely never moved the ring off its minimum setting. They have a lock to allow for this, and typically if you bump it off the minimum setting it gives you an error.

Because of that, a lot of lower end bodies just said "forget the aperture feeler-we just need to make sure the lens is set to minimum aperture" and just have a simple switch to tell that. This is what the FTZ adapter has(although I'd not call it low end). BTW, again since I'm a weirdo, on bodies that are capable of it I use the aperture ring to set the aperture(which actually gives more consistent exposure, but that's another topic of discussion). The Z cameras can't meter with manual focus lenses for this reason(unless they do stop-down metering-I don't know that).

With all of that said, though, because I have a bunch of MF lenses I really like and use, I want a body that can meter them directly as they were meant to be used.

Bunnspecial: thank you for this very interesting and detailed explanation of the Nikon AI, AIS, and so on system and why/how it all came about! I used to wonder about that "bunny ears" and fork-looking thingy which I knew was important and had something to do with the metering, but never took the time to really read up on it and learn the backstory. I had a few AIS lenses and D lenses and so on, moving through the series of lenses as Nikon came out with new gear through the years.

It was disturbing, then, when they announced the upcoming Z series and stated that people would be able to use ALL their previous lenses -- while the reality of this quickly showed that it was only partly true. The situation was really frustrating, along with the absence of a couple of key lenses in their projected roadmap, so for me as I was hesitating at the crossroads getting ready to make a decision, the road forward suddenly looked obvious. Nikon made it pretty easy after all.......
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Thank you for a fantastic tutorial. If this is rambling then I'd love to see you ramble more.

Careful what you ask for :)

I think it might be the professor in me...at least that's what I tell myself...

Aren't Nikons fun, though? :)

BTW, the only film Nikon I don't own is the FM3a. I have a pile of Fs-I think 9 or 10 the last I counted-and they're fun to collect but lousy to shoot. If you want an honest to goodness vintage Nikon experience with non-AI lenses, do yourself a favor and get an F2sb. The meter is the same as what's on the F2AS, including the super-sensitive silicon photodiode and +/O/- LEDs, but works with non-AI lenses. I enjoy the collection of cameras I have, but if pressed for ones to actually use, I'd be perfectly happy pairing down to an F2SB, F2AS, FM2n, and F6...

One other little fun bit of trivia for you:

If you look at the aperture ring on a Nikon AF lens, you will see two "dimples" above f/5.6. At one time, you could send the lens to Nikon and they would add the coupling shoe. The dimples are intended as pilot/locating holes for the screws that hold the shoe in place. I inquired a few years ago, and when I finally talked to someone who knew what I was asking about, was told that Nikon no longer stocked that part for purchase/use other than to service the manual focus lenses still in production(and there are a few, or at least were recently). I have added them to a few of my AF lenses using shoes scavenged off junk lenses.

Another little bit of trivia too. The original non-AI shoe is solid. With the AI system came something called "ADR", or "aperture direct readout" where, on compatible models, the aperture set could be viewed through a light pipe in the viewfinder. This also is why Nikon AI aperture rings generally have the aperture setting printed on them twice(the inner, smaller printing is for ADR). The earlier solid-style coupling shoe blocked light from reaching the ADR scale, so the shoe was "skeletonized" to allow in more light.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Well, almost exactly a year later-

I have a shiny(used) D850 sitting here.

I'm hoping to play with some tomorrow. Tonight I've just been setting it up(I wish there was a quick way to export my settings from the D810, but I'll have it all correct in a day or so) and otherwise just trying to get a feel for it.

I was also able to get a battery grip. I cheaped out and ordered 3rd part EN-EL18s and a 3rd party charger and door for the EN-EL18(the grip was used and only came with the EN-EL15 tray).
 

CK Williams

macrumors 6502a
Dec 27, 2008
844
15,578
Las Vegas
Congratulations! I've only had my D850 for a few weeks and am loving it so far. The only drawback I've seen is that the images can really show you when your lens isn't as high quality or if your technique is off a little. On the bright side though, working on improving my technique gives me an incentive to practice more with it.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,352
6,495
Kentucky
Thanks everyone!

A 128gb Sandisk CFExpress just arrived from Amazon(along with a UHS-II SD card), so the various "pieces" are coming together. I still don't have a reader, which will likely be here more toward the end of the week(I went for the Sony one that can do XQD and CFExpress both) but of course can go direct to camera in the interim. It's not my preferred way, but will do the job. I sold two XQDs and a reader(XQD-only reader) when I sold my D500...but honestly unless I one day end up with a D4 which AFAIK never got a CFExpress firmware update, I don't see a reason to buy XQD over CFExpress even if the latter in the same brand is sometimes a bit more expensive. The CFExpresses I buy now will hopefully carry me through if I decide to go the Z route in the future.
 
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