Nikon D40 and Canon Rebel XT picture quality

[Westside guy]

C'mon, both Canon and Nikon save goodies for the higher-end cameras.

Back when the initial sub-$1000 dSLRs were introduced, Canon did dumb down the Digital Rebel (the initial camera in this market), while Nikon was very aggressive in the features it put into the D70 (the second camera in this market) when compared to it's higher-cost D100. That's why there was so much hacking going on with the Digital Rebel aimed at enabling some of the artificially-removed features. But nowadays both companies are regressing towards the mean, because they have to if they want to stay competitive. Nikon's kit lenses on the low-end packages have gotten worse (they're not awful; Nikon's just not putting $400 lenses in their low-end kits anymore). Canon's added significantly better features to the XT and XTi.

 

[Westside guy]

For the OP...you can't go wrong with either IMO. If it were me, I'd buy a Nikon D80 with a 18-70mm lens.

My D70 came with the 18-70mm, and it is a great lens. I've shot with both Canon's and Nikon's 18-55 (is Canon's 17-55?), and they just don't compare.

Of course, we're comparing a lens that even now cost $330, while the low-end lenses are probably under $150 - so that's not exactly a surprise.

 

[OreoCookie]

No they don't. Nikon has a tradition of saving some features for their "pro" line, for example if you look at the history of mirror lock up (MLU) on Nikon bodies over time you'll see that the D200 is the first time in the history of the company they've offered MLU on any body that wasn't a "Pro" body.

The D100 had MLU as well. My D80 has a function that comes pretty close to it (it adds a delay of 0.4 seconds between moving the mirror and exposure) or you could use the self-timer as people have done for ages.

In any case, I doubt this is really, really the missing pro feature.

Look at any of the low-end "consumer" digitals and find the ability to do MLU, shoot uncompressed NEFs, use older lenses...

With the exception of the D40(X), you can use any AF lens on all Nikon dslrs (with the exception of IX Nikkors designed for the short-lived APS slr cameras), everything works. Non-AF lenses are different, usually metering doesn't work anymore. Since non-AF lenses are increasingly rare, this is not an issue for most people. Remember that you can't really use FD-mount lenses on Canon EOS bodies.

Look at the autofocus packages on the entire digital line, look at the number of autofocus points, built-in vertical grips...

With the exception of the D40(X), Nikon offers vertical grips (as add-ons) for all their dslrs. Only the top-of-the-line pro models of both, Canon and Nikon, have built-in vertical grips.

The D80 uses the same AF module as the D200; the D40's metering system is derived from the Nikon F5, while the D200's is based on the successor. Technology surely trickles down from the top.

 

[apple_iBoy]

Don't count out the Sony Alpha A100. After playing with Nikons and Canons at my neighborhood camera store, I picked up an A100 and like it enough to buy it.

 

[compuwar]

The D100 had MLU as well. My D80 has a function that comes pretty close to it (it adds a delay of 0.4 seconds between moving the mirror and exposure) or you could use the self-timer as people have done for ages.

In any case, I doubt this is really, really the missing pro feature.

No, the D100 had a 1s pre-fire, *not* MLU. Under some conditions the mirror going up would still affect the stability of the platform- which is why Nikon's pro bodies have had MLU on them for about as long as I remember.

While it may not be important for your work, I find it very important when I need it. It's important enough for my shooting that I won't go down to one of the consumer bodies as a back-up *because* of the missing MLU.

But then I doubt that you're shooting any of the extreme telephotos if you're not thinking it's all that important. I routinely shoot with a 400/2.8 AFS-II and resort to the TC-14E-II and TC-17E-II teleconverters when I need them, and I use MLU whenever I can. If you're the kind of shooter that rarely shoots from a tripod then it's moot. If you always shoot from a tripod, it's an extremely valuable feature.

Besides, the point is that it took Nikon *decades* to move this pro feature down *one step* on the ladder.

With the exception of the D40(X), you can use any AF lens on all Nikon dslrs (with the exception of IX Nikkors designed for the short-lived APS slr cameras), everything works. Non-AF lenses are different, usually metering doesn't work anymore. Since non-AF lenses are increasingly rare, this is not an issue for most people. Remember that you can't really use FD-mount lenses on Canon EOS bodies.

Look at the lens compatibility of the D200 and D2x, then look at the lens compatibility of the D40, D40x, D50, D70s and D80 and then tell me the compatibility is down in the consumer-level cameras. It isn't. It's not moving down either. "Not an issue for most people" doesn't mean they couldn't put the same firmware (after all, it's already written) into the entire line-up. Since non-CPU lenses are less complex, it's not like this is going to be a huge support cost and since it's "not an issue for most people," it's not like they're going to lose huge lens sales momentum by adding it. I don't care about using FD lenses because I don't shoot Canon.

http://www.nikonians.org/nikon/slr-lens.html

Note that on any of the pro bodies or the D200 (which is the Nikon "exception" camera) you can use manual focus AI, AI-S and E lenses in aperture priority and it'll meter, now look at every consumer digital camera- no dice. Another "Pro" feature not moving down the line all that quickly.

With the exception of the D40(X), Nikon offers vertical grips (as add-ons) for all their dslrs. Only the top-of-the-line pro models of both, Canon and Nikon, have built-in vertical grips.

As add-ons, which isn't the same as moving the feature down the line- and can you provide the part numbers for the D70 and D50 grips?

The D80 uses the same AF module as the D200; the D40's metering system is derived from the Nikon F5, while the D200's is based on the successor. Technology surely trickles down from the top.

Slowly and as a function of reusing parts, not as a function of moving power down unless there's a competing feature. Frankly, I'm not sure that championing Multi-CAM1000 is much of a benefit anyway- for the time I had a D200, it certainly wasn't overly impressive in terms of AF, and the fact that the D200 didn't get Multi-CAM 2000 pretty-much proves my point. The D300 announcement is a good thing (though it's not a consumer-level camera) because it shows that Nikon is going to reuse a lot more features over time (which they've said they'll do for efficiencies sake- no spinning at all AIR.)

Want to give me the wireless transmitter and GPS features for the D80? The D3 puts us on the fourth generation of the WT series, surely by now it'd be moving down the chain if Nikon were so magnanimous in moving features down the chain? Heck, isn't it even in some of their P&S bodies?

I've only been shooting Nikon bodies since about 1991- but in that time, I've not seen a lot of evidence of them pushing to move features down the line in any timeframe that wasn't driven by the competition's feature list or overall market evolution, and even then things like MLU (and frankly even pre-fire) have been offered lower down the tree by the competition more often.

 

[OreoCookie]

Look at the lens compatibility of the D200 and D2x, then look at the lens compatibility of the D40, D40x, D50, D70s and D80 and then tell me the compatibility is down in the consumer-level cameras. It isn't. It's not moving down either. "Not an issue for most people" doesn't mean they couldn't put the same firmware (after all, it's already written) into the entire line-up.

Again, this only concerns non-AF lenses.

As add-ons, which isn't the same as moving the feature down the line- and can you provide the part numbers for the D70 and D50 grips?

The D100 had a Nikon grip, the D70 a third-party grip (not sure why Nikon hadn't released one), the D80 has a Nikon grip. The smallest Nikon model (also in the film days) has never had a vertical grip.

Slowly and as a function of reusing parts, not as a function of moving power down unless there's a competing feature. Frankly, I'm not sure that championing Multi-CAM1000 is much of a benefit anyway- for the time I had a D200, it certainly wasn't overly impressive in terms of AF, and the fact that the D200 didn't get Multi-CAM 2000 pretty-much proves my point.

So they do use technology of the larger cameras, technology does trickle down.
Not to mention sensors, of course: the D200, D80 and D40X essentially share the same.

 

[compuwar]

I don't think so...look at the Nikon d300 with CAM3500 AF for $1800. AF calibration, better weather proof bodies. The $1700 Nikon *d200* was better built than the $3300 5d. I like the 5d btw. Canon could of put AF calibration in the 40D easily...didn't do it. Will the replacement for the 5d have the same AF system as the 1dmkIII? (ok, bad example since it has focusing issues) Will it have AF calibration? On both counts, highly unlikely, but we'll see...

First of all, you'll note I said _tradition_ of which one event certainly doesn't skew the results. Secondly, you're quoting specs on a non-consumer body that doesn't even exist yet. That's hardly proving your point. Thirdly, the response has nothing whatsoever to do with what Canon does or doesn't do, that's a strawman argument.

Again, this only concerns non-AF lenses.

The D100 had a Nikon grip, the D70 a third-party grip (not sure why Nikon hadn't released one), the D80 has a Nikon grip. The smallest Nikon model (also in the film days) has never had a vertical grip.

Again, you dismiss actual proof as unimportant- it remains true that Nikon has a history of not moving features downstream- they continue to put integrated vertical grips on the pro bodies, they continue to put MLU in the pro bodies, they continue to add lens compatibility to the pro bodies, they continue to add crop features to the pro bodies...

So they do use technology of the larger cameras, technology does trickle down.
Not to mention sensors, of course: the D200, D80 and D40X essentially share the same.

None of those are the top-line body- indeed Nikon has been putting active (non-CCD) sensors in its top of the line (CMOS or LBCAST.) MLU is hardly a "technology" and ~20 years to put it into a second-line body is stretching "trickle," let alone the assertion that Nikon actively pushes pro features downsteam, which is after all what I was reacting to.

A vertical grip is hardly a "technology" and they're not "trickling down." Why no High-Speed Crop on the D80 if Nikon's so set on moving down technology?

Every image I've sold in my life from a small-format camera has been from a Nikon body or from a Nikon body modified by Fuji. Rather than getting a 400/IS and Canon body (which would actually have cost less than Nikon's 400mm lens alone!) I opted to stay with Nikon when I went for the super-telephoto, so I'm hardly biased against Nikon- but your rabid fanboyism has no basis in reality compared with Nikon's historical behavior.

Heck, I traded a month-old D200 and a pile of money for a used D2x because as nice as the D200 is, it's certainly not a D2-series camera- even one step down the food chain, there's a difference that makes the top-line pro body worth more than *twice* the price. Heck, the D200 images generated a lot of quick image sales and the body had MLU.

Anyway, ~20 years to "trickle down" MLU one step kind of says it all.

 

[OreoCookie]

Again, you dismiss actual proof as unimportant- it remains true that Nikon has a history of not moving features downstream- they continue to put integrated vertical grips on the pro bodies, they continue to put MLU in the pro bodies, they continue to add lens compatibility to the pro bodies, they continue to add crop features to the pro bodies...

I don't dismiss proof, I have a slightly different opinion on what should be included in a camera and what doesn't have to be included. You blow the issues out of proportion or skew your arguments. The oldest lens I own (a push/pull 2.8/80-200 zoom, 2nd generation AF lens with ED lenses) works just fine. We're only talking about lenses that are almost surely older than 20 years (the first AF Nikkor came out in 1986, I believe).

The omission of a built-in vertical grip for instance is a non-issue as (i) it makes the camera cheaper (most people don't need/want one) and (ii) I can get one for all, but the entry-level dslrs.

None of those are the top-line body- indeed Nikon has been putting active (non-CCD) sensors in its top of the line (CMOS or LBCAST.)

Up until recently, the D200 was Nikon's second-most expensive body -- I consider it to be top-of-the-line. It's a no-brainer that the successor to the D80 will benefit from the new technologies introduced with the D300 (sensor, AF module)


I think you are quite hung-up on the fact that two features which apparently you need aren't included in other Nikon bodies. I can understand that from your perspective: you are a professional photographer with very special needs and wants. However, if you look at the market segment of the D80, for instance, then on average, they don't have the same wants and needs as you do.
I think we're arguing about very little here and I don't want to get into a flamefest when we don't differ by much. By the way, I do have a beef with the D80: it has a much weaker focus motor than the F80, for instance: focussing with the 80-200 zoom takes a long time, hence I will replace it by a Tokina 50-135 zoom soon enough. I tried it out this Saturday, it's small, made solely from metal and `feels' nice in my hand.

 

[Duke Mac]

Hi,
There is a great website by a professional photographer
Ken Rockwell. He talks about and reviews both the Nikon's
and the Canon's.

Main page;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/index.htm

New Cameras;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/00-new-today.htm

Older Camera page;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/2007-05-what-camera.htm

There is also alot of other great information at this website.

 

[compuwar]

I don't dismiss proof, I have a slightly different opinion on what should be included in a camera and what doesn't have to be included. You blow the issues out of proportion or skew your arguments. The oldest lens I own (a push/pull 2.8/80-200 zoom, 2nd generation AF lens with ED lenses) works just fine. We're only talking about lenses that are almost surely older than 20 years (the first AF Nikkor came out in 1986, I believe).

You should look back at the original quote I was refuting, because it's all about that...

The omission of a built-in vertical grip for instance is a non-issue as (i) it makes the camera cheaper (most people don't need/want one) and (ii) I can get one for all, but the entry-level dslrs.

Which means nothing in comparison to the original statement.

Up until recently, the D200 was Nikon's second-most expensive body -- I consider it to be top-of-the-line. It's a no-brainer that the successor to the D80 will benefit from the new technologies introduced with the D300 (sensor, AF module)

I'm pretty sure the D2x was followed by the D2Hs in terms of price. The D2 series was the top of the line, and until the D3x comes out, sort of shares that role with the D3 series. The D200 and D300 are second-tier cameras, hence their significantly lower pricing and differing features.

I think you are quite hung-up on the fact that two features which apparently you need aren't included in other Nikon bodies. I can understand that from your perspective: you are a professional photographer with very special needs and wants. However, if you look at the market segment of the D80, for instance, then on average, they don't have the same wants and needs as you do.

Not at all, I wholeheartedly agree with Nikon's business model, I don't have an issue with that part of the model, I simply took issue with the statement that Nikon actively pushes their pro features downstream. Historically, that hasn't been the case. While I do think it's silly not to do MLU on the entire line, I'm way past the point of buying consumer bodies anyway- so really the outcome of the policy isn't likely to affect me again.

In fact, the only business decision that I think sucks is their allowance of their subsidiaries in each country to set repair policy. I think it's quite silly that Nikon USA won't just charge extra to repair an out-of-market piece of equipment. They lose to the competition on that point, and protectionist moves like that are something I find abhorrent.

Not that I didn't wish they'd price the 400/2.8VR and 600/4 VR around the Canon equivalent prices...

But stratification keeps them in business and competitive and that's a good thing for everyone. Two strong companies at the top of the pile are a good thing overall and make the market and products significantly better. I'd rather see good tools than cheaper prices and worse tools, and the result of that stratification is that Nikon holds things at the top tier for as long as they can.

I think we're arguing about very little here and I don't want to get into a flamefest when we don't differ by much. By the way, I do have a beef with the D80: it has a much weaker focus motor than the F80, for instance: focussing with the 80-200 zoom takes a long time, hence I will replace it by a Tokina 50-135 zoom soon enough. I tried it out this Saturday, it's small, made solely from metal and `feels' nice in my hand.

If you move up to the D2/D3 series, you get higher-voltage batteries that help with screwdriver focus lenses. That lens will focus pretty-much instantly on a D2x, and they're about to get much, much cheaper, though you'll lose a bit of high-ISO cleanliness- maybe a stop to a stop and a half...

FWIW, I was happy to see the D300 get the D3 focus module (because I might not be able to hold off until the D3x) as that's significant progress- but it's not historical behavior. The D300 is a big surprise, as Thom Hogan indicates he hinted it would be, and it's a very positive surprise.

 

[colinmack]

Hi,
There is a great website by a professional photographer
Ken Rockwell. He talks about and reviews both the Nikon's
and the Canon's.

Main page;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/index.htm

New Cameras;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/00-new-today.htm

Older Camera page;
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/2007-05-what-camera.htm

There is also alot of other great information at this website.

Not sure I would put too much stock in what Ken Rockwell says - he's generally mocked within many photography circles, and is famous for 'reviewing' products on a regular basis that he admits he's never seen or touched first-hand, and he doesn't seem to care if it's superficial and inaccurate as long as he generates click-throughs and ad revenue - although who knows, maybe he's psychic and he doesn't actually need to see a camera in person to know how it works

If you can filter out the nonsense from the information, there are occasionally some tips that would benefit first-time camera users, but unfortunately those nuggets seem to be few and far between (and if you look at photos he posts, he's not exactly a very good photographer, but I would guess that he considers his primary profession to be 'website ad generation' and not professional photography).

Sites like http://www.dpreview.com are generally considered far more credible in their reviews and information, and if you want Nikon-specific information, visit Thom Hogan's site at http://www.bythom.com, he's considered one of the most informed and credible Nikon pros (as far as online reviews and information go).

Cheers, Colin.

 

[carlgo]

for my money, it was Nikon.

upon examining the d40 and the XT side by side, the Nikon seemed much more intuitively designed and seems to have a better quality build (ergonomics wise).

but for me, the real decision was about lenses and I felt like Nikon was putting out great glass these days. as others have mentioned, it's not the quality of body, it's the quality of the lens.

much is made about the demand on d40 users being forced into AF-S lenses, but in the end, if you're concerned about quality and future-proofing lenses, the better lens you'll have to buy will pay off many more dividends that upgrading to the d80, etc.

either camera will take great pictures right out of the box, though. so it comes down to just saddling up on one horse and going for it.

Not sure I would put too much stock in what Ken Rockwell says - he's generally mocked within many photography circles..../QUOTE]

When comparing digital cameras you have to take into account how the pics are processed in the camera. Nikon does it in a more conservative way, expecting sharpening, etc. to be done in Photoshop or such. Canons are set up with max sharpening set up in the camera's program.

I have seen a zillion tests and it seems that there is little difference in popular digital camera systems once the pics have undergone equal processing. There is a clear difference between the DX and "full-sized" sensors. There is also a huge difference in price, size, weight, etc. I would test this, but I can't seem to borrow my dealer's digital Hasselblad. I don't know why.

In general, it seems that Nikon is the more conservative company and that their cameras are mechanically very reliable. I liken Canon to Mitsubishi and Nikon to Toyota. Mitsubishis have every bell and whistle and at a lower price. Toyotas are more basic, but are legendary for reliability and tend to be like new for a long time. There are, of course, variations to this theme!

As for Rockwell, he focuses on the results, rather than the minutia of technical specs. I find that interesting and informative. He is not trying to produce dark "art", but rather vivid, colorful shots. There is room in the art world for all sorts and those that consider themselves to be arty tend to gather in groups and belittle the art of others. That polarization has existed from the firs cave paintings ("Ugg paints bison green. No good") and will never end.

 

[Westside guy]

There is also a huge difference in price, size, weight, etc. I would test this, but I can't seem to borrow my dealer's digital Hasselblad. I don't know why.

That's because you're not being realistic. Don't ask to borrow the H3D-39; ask for the H3D-22. I'm sure he'll hand it right over.

The heck with this 6 versus 8 versus 12 megapixel crop-sensor crap. If you're not shooting with at least a 39 megapixel medium format camera, you're not getting good enough pictures.

 

[1Life]

Rebel XT arrived from Beachcamera.com

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all of your advice. I just received my Rebel XT from Beachcamera.com a couple of days ago and have been shooting random pics to get comfortable with the feel and various features of the camera. I am quite pleased so far with the results

There was one thing about the purchase that I felt uneasy with. When I received the camera, the box was not shrink wrapped and it looked like it was opened previously. However, all the items in the box seemed to be in their original packaging. Is this normal packaging for body-only camera purchases?