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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,828
2,033
Redondo Beach, California
cgratti said:
I was generalizing and using sports to prove a point, Pentax has a small piece of the photo market share, for a reason. The reason is that Canon and Nikon make better cameras and lenses. Otherwise Pentax, Olympus, and Sony would be have much larger sales.

Another reason why a company might have a low market share is that they make specialized equipment that does not have wide apeal. For example it is hard to argue that Haselblad and Sinar make poor quality equipment but what is Sinar's market share compared to Canon's. Not even 1% I'd guess.

Also, the market share of the photo mrket is most determined by general consumers who do not even think of themselves as "photographers". They just want to make some snapshots while on vacation. So if you let market share decide for you, your decision is guided by people who's interrests are not at all like yours.

"Follow the crowd" is not a good way to decide. If you did then why not buy a $300 emachines PC with the 1.2Ghz Celeron inside and run XP?

I'm not arguing for any brand. Only that folowing the market leader or buying the same brand as the pros use are not resonable decision methods.

Thinks I think you SHOULD look at are (1) the hitory of the company and (2) the total range of their system. (3) what you might want to do with photography years down the line.

I use Nikon gear. I have an F2 and a set of manual focus lense, then autofocus came out and I bought a couple film bodies and more lenses. When digital came out I did not have to think to hard about with to buy. When the F2 was new Nikon was the undisputed leader but canon has caught up. I do recommend people wanting a first SLR to look at either Canon or Nikon unless they have some specialized needs. For example the olympus eVolts has a live LCD display which is very handy for underwater photography. Other specialized needs might be an absolute non-desire to ever buy another lens for the camera. Then Pentax and Sony look beter
 

scu

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2005
182
0
I love my Rebel XT. Don't know much about Nikon, except my buddy owns one and takes some great pictures. The Canon IS lenses are awesome, although pretty expensive. I just bought a 17-85 mm with a polorizing filter and I have had great results.
 

form

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2003
187
0
in a country
I like my Rebel XT. I don't have enough experience to comment on Pentax, though I didn't care for reviews of the IST D variants, nor was I impressed with any Olympus model.

I probably went with Canon mostly because the Rebel XT had 8MP resolution, which made a difference in the fine details when compared to Nikon's 6MP D70/D50, and because the light sensitivity of the Rebel XT and 20D was supposedly a bit greater than the actual ISO number, and I needed as much light gathering capability as I could get. According to dpreview, the D50 is slightly better at retaining detail at ISO1600, but it's very close, and the Rebel XT is closer to ISO2000 at that setting (so they claim).

If my choice was based on the build quality, Nikon has a lot more going for them, and their cameras tend to have more features than the Rebel XT, which seems more barebones in overall design.
 

thefunkymunky

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2005
1,270
2
London
Hi,

A lot of you guys compare the 350D to the D50. Any particular reason for this when the 350D is 8MP and the D50 is 6MP. Is MP's just a myth nowadays and mostly depends on the quality of the optics and image processor.

I want to upgrade to a DSLR from a Canon PowerShot G5 which is 5MP and a cracking camera for a PnS. I originally thought I would want at least a jump to 8MP too be worthwhile upgrading. However, reading all the reviews and opinions online I'm grearing towards a D50, not sure why, I just am. :rolleyes:

I would like to print images A3 size sometimes. Would a 6 MP suffice?

Nick.
 

form

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2003
187
0
in a country
Because the cameras in question are within the same price range and are entry-level dSLRs, they are ideal for comparison with each other.

Extra megapixels can be handy for editing, but the difference between large numbers (10mp) and slightly larger numbers (12mp) is of reduced importance because of the relative size increase (20% resolution gain) than the difference between small/medium numbers (5 or 6mp) and larger numbers (8mp), which yield a greater relative increase (60% or 33% resolution gain). To make it harder to compare, it would take four times a certain resolution to get an image that's twice the width and twice the height - and the only time you'll notice that kind of difference is if you make a huge leap from an older model (2, 3 or 4mp) to a much more recent design, most likely a dSLR (8, 12 or 16mp respectively).

The lens is the essential through which all photos must begin, and if its quality is lacking the result can be a waste of extra resolution. But, if it's good, then it allows the sensor's extra megapixels to make a visible difference in larger print sizes. Most of the sensors at that level are pretty good from what I understand.

6mp will probably be adequate for A3; others here have said so. I wouldn't know from personal experience. How does your Powershot G5 print?
 

scu

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2005
182
0
thefunkymunky said:
Hi,

A lot of you guys compare the 350D to the D50. Any particular reason for this when the 350D is 8MP and the D50 is 6MP. Is MP's just a myth nowadays and mostly depends on the quality of the optics and image processor.

I want to upgrade to a DSLR from a Canon PowerShot G5 which is 5MP and a cracking camera for a PnS. I originally thought I would want at least a jump to 8MP too be worthwhile upgrading. However, reading all the reviews and opinions online I'm grearing towards a D50, not sure why, I just am. :rolleyes:

I would like to print images A3 size sometimes. Would a 6 MP suffice?

Nick.

As far as I am concerned MP size is important. I can't tell you how many time I had to crop pictures or zoom in to capture just the right objects.

I started off with a 2 mp then moved up 4 mp, than 5 mp and now I have 8 mp with the Rebel. Each time my pictures are getting better and better. Having the right camera does help, but the bigger the better in my book.

I would recommend the Rebel over the D50 because most professional photographers I ran into seem to like the Canon over the Nikon. I have talked to paper photographers, wedding, and landscape. They all rave about the Canon products.

Here are some links to pictures with the Rebel.
http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/rgauvin979/landcapes/
http://www.pbase.com/antidote3/beautiful_tasmania
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,828
2,033
Redondo Beach, California
scu said:
I started off with a 2 mp then moved up 4 mp, than 5 mp and now I have 8 mp with the Rebel. Each time my pictures are getting better and better. Having the right camera does help, but the bigger the better in my book.

I would recommend the Rebel over the D50 because most professional photographers I ran into seem to like the Canon over the Nikon.]

By your argument then we all should be using Windows XP because "more profesional use Windows than Macintosh." But do more profesionals use Canon? I wonder. I suspect that Canon DSLRs are only used for a few types of specialized profesional photography. For example I suspect ONLY for sports, events and photo journalium. I seriously doubt many small format DSLRs are used in advertizing, fashion, studio portraits, product photography and so on and so on.

OK once you have identified the segment ofprofesional photography that does use DSLRs (of eiither brand) then you have to ask yourself if what you want to do is like or unlike what those pros do. The nest question to ask is if the Canon D350 and its "kit lens" and anything at all like the camera that those pros are using. After all you might fall into the trap of thinking "Corvetts are nice cars so I will buy a Geo Metro" Same thing if you buy a Rebel because you see a guy with a $6,000 Canon setup on the sidelines of some NFL football game. And what about all the pros doing the bead and butter type product, fashion and ad work using things like Leaf digital backs on medium format or view cameras? Should we buy those cameras because "that is what the pros use?"

In summary you need to ask
1) Which Pros - do they shoot what i shoot?
2) What equipment - Would I actually buy what they use?

Back to megapixels. The LENS makes the image. That image has a certain resolution that is measued in "cycles (or lines) per millimeter. Next you need to ask if the sensor has fine enough resolution to capture the the image projected by the llens. You answer this question by using some enginerring and mathmatics. but the answer for a small format (DX or APS-C) sensor in the 10 to 6 MP range is "it depends" and 10 is not much different fro 6 MP. Remember each time you _double_ the MP count you gain a factor 1.41 in resolution so by goeing from 6MP to 10Mp you gain a factor of 1.29. Going from 6 to 8MP you gain a factor of 1.15 or 15% (resolution being measured as pixels per millilmeter)

The next question is if a consummer level lens used hand held can even project a 50 line per millimeter image onto the sensor? Maybe it''s more like 40lpmm? If so then 6 to 8 MP is about right for a aps-c/DX sized sensor.

On the other hand there is an advantage to having larger pixels. More photons will hit the bigger pixel. "noise" is cause by the statistical nature of light that comes in descrete packets (called photons) In simple terms the signal to noise ratio goes up when you have more signal. You can get more signal with larger pixels. Basically you trade noise, color fidelity and "snap" (or contrast) for resolution. Enginerrs and their managment have to make a value judgment about what matters most.

Nikon is a very conservative company and makes equipment for people who value things like ergonomics, contrast and color and build quality. They are slow to add new technologies into their cameras. Canon takes a slighly different approach and seems to want to sell camera to peole who read specifications and feature lists. and is very quick to add the latest new technologies into their products. Enginerring is always a trade off. for a given price point gainning one thing means you loose something else so you need to decide what you want and what you don't need

Finally you need to think about the final purpose of the images? Will this be made into fine art quality large scale prints, 4x6 inch snapshots or displayed on a web page.
 

jared_kipe

macrumors 68030
Dec 8, 2003
2,967
1
Seattle
Oh come on. On dpreview one can CLEARLY see better resolution from 8mp 20D vs 6mp 10D with the same lens. Its subtle. The main thing the 20D's images have over the 10D's is lower noise and better dynamic range.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,828
2,033
Redondo Beach, California
jared_kipe said:
Oh come on. On dpreview one can CLEARLY see better resolution from 8mp 20D vs 6mp 10D with the same lens. Its subtle. The main thing the 20D's images have over the 10D's is lower noise and better dynamic range.

The 20D and 10D were different generations of bodies. So even if they both have 8MP sensore you'd expect the later camera to do beter. With Nikon the D70 and D50 both have a 6MP CCD but the D50 clearly has better noise control in higher ISO settings. Those two camera may even have the same CCD but a couple more years of R&D paid off and the D50 does better work at a lower price. I'd expect the same from Canon, even if the 20D had a 6MP sensor it should still outperform the 10D. But apples and oranges here the 20D cost over two times the D50's price.


Like I said at any one point in TIME and at a given PRICE POINT you trade one thing for another. You can have slightly more resolution but then something else has to be cut.

The person buying the D50 thinks it is worth loosing 15% linear resolution (relative to the Rebel) on the sensor to gain the better build quality, ergonomics and usabilty. Others want that 15% and still
others would prefer to pay the 20D price or even the D200 price. and then there are those who buy the H2D-39. (http://www.hasselbladusa.com) (If money were no object, I'd own an H2 system)

But if you compare two equal price cameras you have to trade one thing to get another. So back to the 350D vs. D50 question. My take on this is that NEITHER camera is the best available. On the contrary each is the cheapest, lowest-end model of it's line and every other DSLR that
both Canon and Nikon make is better then either of these. Both companies made compromises to get the price down and you have to choose which set of compromises
apeal to you. That said, BOTH cameras are hugely better then any point and shoot and almost as good as each company's mid-line DSLR models. Both are good values.

Next we can debate Honda vs. Toyota.....
 

form

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2003
187
0
in a country
Said noticeable difference between 6 and 8 megapixels on dpreview's 100% crops which you view on your monitor may NOT be so readily noticed in A3-sized prints. Use a high monitor resolution, then adjust the zoom percentage on an image taken by the 350d and another by the d50, until they're about the same size, and measure roughly 8x12 on your monitor: Can you still see a difference in detail?

The 10d was a 6.3mp camera. And, a few years back, I would look at the pictures taken by it in dpreview's samples gallery, and declare how much I wanted a camera like that, with those smooth transitions between colors, and none of that heavy noise crap that my kodak dc280 zoom had...and how I would never be able to afford anything like the 10d. And so, half a year ago, I bought a rebel xt, and made myself a liar.

Civic vs. Tercel?
 

sethypoo

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,583
5
Sacramento, CA, USA
I think the OP should just go to a camera store and try both models out (the D50 and the 350XT). They're both great camera's, and you'll do well with either.

My vote is still for the 350XT, and I still think Pentax camera's can't hold a candle to the Canon. Pentax is great for film, but not for digital. Remember, this is just my opinion. (easy, kwajo, easy).

I am a big guy, and I have large hands. My hands have never cramped, slipped, ached, or hurt from using the 350XT. In the long run, I like the smaller size because it can fit in my camera bag with more equipment, and is more "travel friendly." It's also easy and light enough to hold and operate with one hand.

Also, the 350XT's 8MP will give you more detail than the D50's 6MP. You'll be able to blow your pictures up to larger sizes.
 

fireball jones

macrumors member
May 31, 2006
38
0
I doubt most consumers looking at D50s or 350Ds are going to deal with the large scale printing that will show the difference in resolution. If anything, 8mp is better for cropping out specific things for 4x6s or 8x10s.

That said, I have a D50. I used to be a Canon user (Powershot, Elph) but flipping through pictures taken with both cameras, I liked the look of unprocessed Nikon photos over Canon's. I rarely touch mine after shooting (besides cropping) so that was important to me.
 

scu

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2005
182
0
thefunkymunky said:
Just for the record the first set of pics are from a PowerShot G6 and the second is from a 300D not a 350D.

You are correct. I noticed that later as well. Sorry for the mistake.;)

What interesting a about the 300D pictures, is how well they turned out even with the older and smaller MP model. The 350D takes even better pictures.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,888
31
Northern Virginia
fireball jones said:
I doubt most consumers looking at D50s or 350Ds are going to deal with the large scale printing that will show the difference in resolution. If anything, 8mp is better for cropping out specific things for 4x6s or 8x10s.

You are right for the most part. The Xt has a file that is 3456 x 2304 vs. the D50's 3008 x 2000 file size. For the XT the print size from a "straight" JPG at 200 dpi is 11.5x17.2 verses the D50's 10x15. Not enough IMO to tip the scales.

That said, I have a D50. I used to be a Canon user (Powershot, Elph) but flipping through pictures taken with both cameras, I liked the look of unprocessed Nikon photos over Canon's. I rarely touch mine after shooting (besides cropping) so that was important to me.

That is the joy of the D50. It was tuned to give images that did not need "tweaking" for printing.
 

seenew

macrumors 68000
Dec 1, 2005
1,569
1
Brooklyn
Would recommedn the Cannon over the Nikon if for no other reason than the fps. I switched because I had used Nikons in the past that lagged, and I'm using a 350D right now (came in the mail TODAY), took it for a test drive, and it shoots really, really fast.
 

Silentwave

macrumors 68000
May 26, 2006
1,615
50
seenew said:
Would recommedn the Cannon over the Nikon if for no other reason than the fps. I switched because I had used Nikons in the past that lagged, and I'm using a 350D right now (came in the mail TODAY), took it for a test drive, and it shoots really, really fast.

If you used nikons that lagged i'd like to know which ones. I've used nikon and canon alike and its a matter of how the *USER* sets it up when comparing 2 models on the same level.

And if you say the word lag to my D2HS, it'll spew 8FPS of nikon goodness at you, with a fastest in the world 37ms delay :D
 

wmmk

macrumors 68020
Mar 28, 2006
2,414
0
The Library.
tough choice. i never do much digital, but i love my canon 35mm SLR (forget the model at the moment, sorry:eek: ). still, i have only heard good things about the D50. i really like nikon lenses for digital SLRs, so i'd go with that.
 

Pistol Pete

macrumors 6502a
Jan 6, 2005
616
5
California
Honestly forget about the specs and company names...

go and feel the rebel and the nikon.

the only reason why i cant stand the rebel is because of its horrible design at least for me, it is REALLY uncomfortable.

I like the nikon it has a larger grip and a lot better feel especially for the days i carry it for hours on end...

20D feels similiar to the D50.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
seenew said:
Would recommedn the Cannon over the Nikon if for no other reason than the fps. I switched because I had used Nikons in the past that lagged, and I'm using a 350D right now (came in the mail TODAY), took it for a test drive, and it shoots really, really fast.


The Nikon DSLRs are VERY different from the Nikon Coolpixes. Apples and oranges....

That CP 8800 is what drove me to a DSLR because of its lack of responsiveness. I went from it to the Nikon D70 and found a world of difference. You cannot compare the CP 8800 to ANY DSLR because regardless of brand, any DSLR is going to triumph over it in any number of ways. It is important to compare DSLR against DSLR, not try to measure the CP 8800 against a given brand of DSLR. Don't knock Nikon's DSLRs because of the inadequacy of that CP 8800.

That said, I have to commend you on the wonderful images you've gotten from that CP 8800 in spite of its shutter lag and inability to quickly save to buffer or to quickly upload to the memory card. You've done a terrific job with it and I am really eager to see what you'll be able to do now that you've got a DSLR. In the end, the bottom line is not so much in the particular equipment one has (Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony, whatever) but rather what one does with it.....
 
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