Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

astronomerroyal

macrumors newbie
Aug 15, 2012
6
2
I don’t expect useful native Linux support on Apple Silicon, well, ever. There will be some fun little proofs of concept and that’s it. Linux does not have the software ecosystem to benefit from more interesting features of Apple hardware and the number of people interested in running native Linux on M-series will be extremely limited.

This is not true, Macs have been very popular with people in IT and other tech fields, and the people that choose to run Linux natively often do so on Macs. I can't imagine that would be any different with M1 Macs than with Intel Macs, once both are equally capable of running it.

I am fairly sure he was talking about virtual machines. Porting Windows to Apple Silicon would be a massive endeavor (just GPU driver stack support would require crazy effort), and there is literally zero benefit of that to either Microsoft or Apple. Why bother when there are folks like Parallels that are eager to take care of the interfacing details?
Once there's a Linux GPU driver, porting it to Windows would be well within the capabilities of a systems team at Microsoft. Given that people have ported Windows on ARM to Raspberry Pi, I don't think it's as massive an undertaking as you think, and there will always be interest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JKAussieSkater

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
Bottom line: Apple doesn't sell Windows. Why would they want to *allow* it to run on THEIR equipment for the future.
Well Craig did say IF Microsoft was willing to put Windows on M1 Macs they would support them.

MS won't it because it would be an sad that a Mac is running Windows on ARM faster than their own Surface Pro X.

Also, Apple did enable an unlocked bootloader in 11.2 and SO Apple did allow users to load their kernels.

This is how Linux is possible on M1 Macs because Apple ALLOWED there to unlocked bootloader.

Remember bootcamp Apple allowed users to install Windows on THEIR equipment.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,612
6,986
It’s not unlocked „for now“, third party bootloader support has been explicitly added in a Big Sur update a while ago. It’s a documented, fully supported feature.

As to the rest of your post, Apple has no incentive whatsoever to support Linux hackers in reverse-engineering their hardware. They give you the bootloader access and the community can do whatever they want.

I don’t expect useful native Linux support on Apple Silicon, well, ever. There will be some fun little proofs of concept and that’s it. Linux does not have the software ecosystem to benefit from more interesting features of Apple hardware and the number of people interested in running native Linux on M-series will be extremely limited.



I am fairly sure he was talking about virtual machines. Porting Windows to Apple Silicon would be a massive endeavor (just GPU driver stack support would require crazy effort), and there is literally zero benefit of that to either Microsoft or Apple. Why bother when there are folks like Parallels that are eager to take care of the interfacing details?

I'm not implying it was an 'oversight' in fact I'm pretty sure I remembered them talking about the unlocked bootloader either during the M1 keynote or one of the interviews Craig did right after.

And of course Apple have no 'incentive' to support the Linux community. Their only incentive is to make as much money as possible. So again, that begs the question, why do you think they added an unlocked bootloader? What was the financial incentive there? Arguably there is none. On the other hand there *is* incentive to remove it and lock down the OS the same as iOS. That way they can patch the true hole in their false argument (as pointed out by Epic) that Macs are unlocked and can run software distributed by third parties whereas iPhones cannot. Wouldn't it be terribly convenient to also (eventually) lock down Macs the same way they lock down iPhones?

I'm saying I no longer have confidence that Apple will commit to keeping the unlocked bootloader around; perhaps they'll find some BS excuse to remove it for "security purposes." I have no idea why you guys think the fact that Apple included it in an OS release somehow means it'll be around forever.

"Privacy" on iPhone was the defining flagship marketing talking point for YEARS before they went and completely pissed in their own kool aid by introducing spyware onto customer's property. This billboard is now no longer true:

eWhYty8.jpg


You haven’t been following recently. They’ve made huge progress on all fronts - CPU side for basic Linux done and (largely) upstreamed, OpenGL (3ES I think) on GPU almost done (like 98% passing or something in the last report) and in Mesa, got a few helper processors like display control to do, installer done, and running virtual machines on your Linux partition done. Vulcan support will take a little bit longer, but on the horizon.

I've been aware of the project ever since marcan asked the community if he should go ahead with it, even before Asahi had a name and website. The last time I checked on progress (watching marcan's livestream 1.5 weeks ago) it seemed like the installer was nowhere near done (the Github repo literally says "This isn't even remotely ready yet." in the installer readme).

I hadn't seen the latest August 2021 update until you linked it. Lots of great work being done it seems. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

I'm looking forward to seeing it get done and being a stable, permanent solution for running Linux on AS. In fact purchasing any form of Mac in the future is completely dependent on whether or not Asahi is successful and stable. Until AS Macs can run Asahi arch builds with practically no compromises I will believe it. For now I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop either in the form of someone discovering fundamental incompatibilities with Macs running Linux (Macs have a decently long history of this, especially on any models with the T chips) or Apple locking down the OS and bootloader because some exec realizes how great that same strategy works on iOS. It's not impossible that Apple will do this in the future, I have no idea why you're so optimistic.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JKAussieSkater

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
bootloader because some exec realizes how great that same strategy works on iOS. It's not impossible that Apple will do this in the future, I have no idea why you're so optimistic.
I am optimistic because Apple treats Macs differently compared to ios devices. If Apple wanted to lock down Macs why even have an unlocked bootloader in the first place?

Don't you think Apple would have locked the Mac by now if that was Apple's goal. They first had this chance with the T2 Macs and now with M1 Macs they even more control of the hardware and yet the bootloader is open. It's been 8-10 months since M1 macs released and yet M1 Macs are still open.


There are so many things that Apple does differently with Macs that they will never do with iPhones or iPads.
Like having to dual boot different OS's, you can also boot multiple macOS versions and you can boot unsigned macOS versions.

This sort of stuff never happens on an iPhone/iPad nor will be made available.
You can see this with the iPad Pro M1 did Apple unlock the bootloader there? nope

People buy Macs because they are more open than iPads. I am sure Apple exec's know this. Otherwise if Macs are locked down like iPads, why would people buy Macs then? The Mac is meant to be an open platform that's one its selling points and every Apple exec knows cause if they did not they would be locked down like iPads.

"Privacy" on iPhone was the defining flagship marketing talking point for YEARS before they went and completely pissed in their own kool aid by introducing spyware onto customer's property. This billboard is now no longer true:

That's marketing crap. I am surprised you believed that. Once you connect to internet, your privacy is non-existant.
Just because it's an iPhone does not change that.
 
Last edited:

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
I'm saying I no longer have confidence that Apple will commit to keeping the unlocked bootloader around; perhaps they'll find some BS excuse to remove it for "security purposes."
I don't think this will be case. Apple already address the "security purposes" argument by giving the option to the user. Apple allows older macOS installations on M1 Macs. If you are on macOS 11.5.2 and you want to downgrade to macOS 11.2, you can.

On iDevices, if you are 14.7 and want to downgrade to iOS 14.2, you can't.
It should be clear by now Apple treats Macs differently than iDevices.

1629519679570.png
 
Last edited:

Javi74

macrumors member
Dec 5, 2020
39
12
Hector Martin is the guy who is making Linux work on M1 Macs and he works on Asahil Linux.
I'm starting to feel too old for all this...
It's simply amazing, but I think I'm going to keep things as they are.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,612
6,986
I am optimistic because Apple treats Macs differently compared to ios devices. If Apple wanted to lock down Macs why even have an unlocked bootloader in the first place?

Don't you think Apple would have locked the Mac by now if that was Apple's goal. They first had this chance with the T2 Macs and now with M1 Macs they even more control of the hardware and yet the bootloader is open. It's been 8-10 months since M1 macs released and yet M1 Macs are still open.


There are so many things that Apple does differently with Macs that they will never do with iPhones or iPads.
Like having to dual boot different OS's, you can also boot multiple macOS versions and you can boot unsigned macOS versions.

This sort of stuff never happens on an iPhone/iPad nor will be made available.
You can see this with the iPad Pro M1 did Apple unlock the bootloader there? nope

For decades people were capable of running any software they wanted on their mac without it phoning home to Apple so they can see if you're running 'bad' software -- alas, macOS 10.15 implemented just that with limited methods of overriding this check, macOS 11 made it mandatory. Apple almost tried to make iCloud/Apple services bypass any user-installed firewall on macOS 11, they only removed that feature after community backlash.

Although T1 and T2 Macs didn't ship with locked bootloaders they ensured many aspects of the hardware were controlled by the T chips, thereby making Linux booting with full compatibility for the keyboard, wifi, speakers, etc. a near impossibility. Emphasis on *near* impossibility because this conveniently allows people (such as Apple and yourself) to claim "Linux is capable of running natively on the latest MacBooks" but omit the fact that the path to getting there has been intentionally designed to be as difficult as possible, and it gets more difficult every year.

There's a sizeable list of things Apple used to support but silently removed later because of terrible excuses such as "security" and "most of our customers don't do this thing." IMO Apple's history and strategy tells us they're moving further and further toward locking down their systems more and more.

Let's say you're right. They may keep their bootloader unlocked but what else will they do behind the scenes to make having an unlocked bootloader a completely moot point. That's the point. Unless Apple commit to more than just unlocking the bootloader, customers will never be able to reliably use Linux on Mac.


That's marketing crap. I am surprised you believed that. Once you connect to internet, your privacy is non-existant.
Just because it's an iPhone does not change that.

I never believed it. I've never fully trusted any cloud service with my data unless I'm hosting instances of open source software myself. In particular I don't believe it because I know that Apple have the keys to all of my data in addition to all the other invisible telemetry they gather. The point isn't that what happens on your iPhone actually stays on your iPhone, the point is that Apple will contradict their own messaging, intent, and historical precedent whenever they feel like it.

That being said, "once you connect to the internet, your privacy is non-existent" is completely false. If I'm using verified zero access E2EE services on the internet then indeed by privacy is actually significantly better than the alternatives. The argument you're making here is defeatist at its core and thereby dangerous -- you're effectively spreading the message that all internet usage is non-private so therefore there's no better alternative to whatever bare minimum privacy tech exists from the likes of Google, Apple, etc. "It's all bad so what's the point?"

If using Google/FB services scores a 1/10 on the privacy scale then using Apple services scores a 3/10. Both of those scores are garbage but one is the lesser of two evils than the other. I don't want to pick the lesser of two evils so I support 8/10 options whenever I can and campaign for making those options a legal right.

Apple don't make zero access E2EE services that matter but they're still better than many of the other options out there. By normalizing client side scanning like they're trying to do with their latest controversial spyware,they're effectively destroying whatever privacy advantage (however small) they once had in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fawkesguyy

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
Although T1 and T2 Macs didn't ship with locked bootloaders they ensured many aspects of the hardware were controlled by the T chips, thereby making Linux booting with full compatibility for the keyboard, wifi, speakers, etc. a near impossibility. Emphasis on *near* impossibility because this conveniently allows people (such as Apple and yourself) to claim "Linux is capable of running natively on the latest MacBooks" but omit the fact that the path to getting there has been intentionally designed to be as difficult as possible, and it gets more difficult every year.
I have Linux running on my T2 Intel 16". Everything works expect the Microphone.

The wifi, bluetooth, speakers and keyboard/trackpad, camera all WORK.

 

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
That being said, "once you connect to the internet, your privacy is non-existent" is completely false. If I'm using verified zero access E2EE services on the internet then indeed by privacy is actually significantly better than the alternatives. The argument you're making here is defeatist at its core and thereby dangerous -- you're effectively spreading the message that all internet usage is non-private so therefore there's no better alternative to whatever bare minimum privacy tech exists from the likes of Google, Apple, etc. "It's all bad so what's the point?"
Do you think the average user is doing that??
My point is Apple targeted those ads at the average Joe. Most people on iPhones don't even use a VPN.

Apple's statement is completely false: 'What happens on your iPhone, stays on my iPhone". Once ANY user connects to the internet on the iPhone that argument is invalid.
The moment you open Safari and open Facebook, privacy is gone on the iPhone and it certainly does not stay on my iPhone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zakarhino

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Their only incentive is to make as much money as possible.

I think this is simplifying things a bit. Of course they are about making money, but they also have certain ideology/vision that they have been following fairly closely for the last two decades.

So again, that begs the question, why do you think they added an unlocked bootloader? What was the financial incentive there? Arguably there is none. On the other hand there *is* incentive to remove it and lock down the OS the same as iOS.

Why does it have to be about a financial incentive? Unlocked bootloader is a powerful message "no, we are not locking the Mac", which directly counters skeptics. And I completely disagree that locking down the Mac will be beneficial from Apple. They are not stupid. They know this would mean immediate and massive exodus of users and ultimately abandonment of their entire ecosystem. Open Mac is a vital part of Apple's garden.

That way they can patch the true hole in their false argument (as pointed out by Epic) that Macs are unlocked and can run software distributed by third parties whereas iPhones cannot. Wouldn't it be terribly convenient to also (eventually) lock down Macs the same way they lock down iPhones?

What false argument? Did I miss something?


I'm saying I no longer have confidence that Apple will commit to keeping the unlocked bootloader around; perhaps they'll find some BS excuse to remove it for "security purposes."

The entire system is designed to be secure, bootloader doesn't change this. Apple doesn't do things randomly.

This is not true, Macs have been very popular with people in IT and other tech fields, and the people that choose to run Linux natively often do so on Macs. I can't imagine that would be any different with M1 Macs than with Intel Macs, once both are equally capable of running it.

Well, I am one of those "people in tech fields", and I do run Linux on my MacBook Pro — in a virtual machine or docker containers, as the overwhelming majority of people do. But natively booting it? There is just no significant interest, outside of a very small passionate group. It's like running Linux on PS4 — technically possible and has been achieved, but it will never become a common thing.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud the Linux hackers for their efforts, they do amazing and important work, providing us with technical information and prying things apart, but I don't think it will ever go beyond it. Linux desktop is already a marginal thing, and running it on reverse-engineered hardware is going to lack the ergonomy of the "real thing".

Once there's a Linux GPU driver, porting it to Windows would be well within the capabilities of a systems team at Microsoft. Given that people have ported Windows on ARM to Raspberry Pi, I don't think it's as massive an undertaking as you think, and there will always be interest.

The work that Alyssa and Dougal did on reverse-engineering the Appel GPU is nothing but incredibly impressive, I didn't expect anyone to get so far in such a short time. But even with all the information, delivering a high-performance, production quality driver is a lot of work. Not to mention the scope itself. Microsoft would need to implement a maintain a DX12 driver, a DX11 driver, an Vulkan driver and an OpenGL/OpenCL driver in order to the implementation to be useable. It requires massive resource investment.

And sure, there is interest, however the vast majority of that is satisfied via virtual machines. Even the officially unsupported insider builds effectively have native-level performance when running on M1 Macs. Why spend millions of $ on rebuilding a driver if a practical solution is just in front on one's nose?
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,228
Midwest America.
Well Craig did say IF Microsoft was willing to put Windows on M1 Macs they would support them.

MS won't it because it would be an sad that a Mac is running Windows on ARM faster than their own Surface Pro X.

Also, Apple did enable an unlocked bootloader in 11.2 and SO Apple did allow users to load their kernels.

This is how Linux is possible on M1 Macs because Apple ALLOWED there to unlocked bootloader.

Remember bootcamp Apple allowed users to install Windows on THEIR equipment.

I was just getting at the idea that just because they support it now, they may change their mind.

But perhaps this is an acknowledgment that Apple could make more hardware sales (in the short term) if they opened things up, which makes me wonder if Mr Apple's last move at Apple will be to untie macOS from their hardware, and release it as a standalone OS like Windows. I think, on one had, that would be a great idea, but on the flip side, it means Apple hardware will be competing with cheap Dell junk, and all of the other compatibles that troll for cheapskates looking for something that barely runs... Looking ahead, I see this repeating, ironically, Next's demise. If the macOS will run on *anything*, why spend the big bucks to get Apple hardware. I'm projecting here, but it could happen... If it does, Apple could make a lot of sales of their OS, but will lose on hardware. I hope I'm wrong, but time will tell...
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
But perhaps this is an acknowledgment that Apple could make more hardware sales (in the short term) if they opened things up, which makes me wonder if Mr Apple's last move at Apple will be to untie macOS from their hardware, and release it as a standalone OS like Windows.

Apples selling point is tight integration of software and hardware. They are now at a stage where they design hardware that accelerates common macOS software paradigms and offer specialized data processors with custom APIs. Stand-alone macOS has no place in that vision. Apple doesn’t want to sell you the OS, they want to sell you the experience, and this includes the hardware.
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,228
Midwest America.
Apples selling point is tight integration of software and hardware. They are now at a stage where they design hardware that accelerates common macOS software paradigms and offer specialized data processors with custom APIs. Stand-alone macOS has no place in that vision. Apple doesn’t want to sell you the OS, they want to sell you the experience, and this includes the hardware.

That may be true, but does everyone at Apple know that. I can see some in Apple thinking that they could separate the OS/hardware connection, and 'own the world'. Doing that would open a world of hurt for Apple. It would decimate their hardware business, and create headaches like they have never known for supporting their OS in an unfriendly environment. All I'm saying is keep an eye on them. Opening up their Apple Silicon boxes to other OS brands could be something that forces Apple to open up macOS. It would be an earthshaking moment, and Apple will pay dearly for it. Not that I think macOS isn't superior to Windows, and Linux. Throwing themselves into the Apple Alternative Market will likely end the way all of the other comparative situations have. But I could be wrong... I hope I am.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
That may be true, but does everyone at Apple know that. I can see some in Apple thinking that they could separate the OS/hardware connection, and 'own the world'.

I don’t think there are any indications of anyone in Apple senior management thinking that way. Their basic strategy has not changed in the last 15 years - they target only the premium market. Apple has no interest in becoming the most popular OS in the world. They do have keen interest in becoming dominant premium platform though (abs their barber share in the premium segment is significant).

Opening up their Apple Silicon boxes to other OS brands could be something that forces Apple to open up macOS.

Why? Besides. What exactly do you mean by „opening macOS“? The base system is open source, you can download the code and do whatever you want with it. There were some projects that shipped a free OS based on Darwin (macOS kernel), no idea how they are doing these days.
 

tokenmacdude

macrumors member
Jun 9, 2015
64
69
Yeah, they will.

It's a corporation. It can do any number of incredibly bizarre and illogical things. Because it works today, do NOT assume that it will work on the next update.

Bottom line: Apple doesn't sell Windows. Why would they want to *allow* it to run on THEIR equipment for the future.

Point is, it works *now*, but given Apple's past, do NOT depend on it running after any future updates.
Ever heard of Boot Camp? Admittedly, it was on Intel CPUs, but it allowed Mac users to run Windows natively on their computers. That could be in the future. It's as possible as your contention.
 

Kung gu

Suspended
Original poster
Oct 20, 2018
1,379
2,434
Still missing many critical drivers. No GPU, no WIFI, no audio, etc.

https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Tasks
"Sven has been dutifully working on the Linux driver for DART, the M1’s IOMMU (I/O Memory Management Unit). This driver is required to make all kinds of hardware work, like PCIe, USB, DCP, and more. It has just been accepted by upstream and is now on its way to Linux 5.15!"

From: https://asahilinux.org/2021/08/progress-report-august-2021/

Hector intends to get a working GPU by the end of this year. WiFi is easy as its a Broadcom wifi chip.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,146
1,902
Anchorage, AK
Kind of a noob question here, but does that mean I can install the ARM version of Windows 10 without virtualization ??

No. Going back to Craig Federighi's comments from WWDC 2020, the path forward regarding Windows is via virtualization rather than Boot Camp or other method of dual booting. Even then, Microsoft has to open up the licensing terms for ARM-based versions of the OS before it can be fully operational without restriction.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,653
4,482
No. Going back to Craig Federighi's comments from WWDC 2020, the path forward regarding Windows is via virtualization rather than Boot Camp or other method of dual booting. Even then, Microsoft has to open up the licensing terms for ARM-based versions of the OS before it can be fully operational without restriction.
No, that's not true, Federighi never said that the path forward is via virtualization. He was clearly referring to dual booting Windows on Arm.
 

Internaut

macrumors 65816
Well Craig did say IF Microsoft was willing to put Windows on M1 Macs they would support them.

MS won't it because it would be an sad that a Mac is running Windows on ARM faster than their own Surface Pro X.

Also, Apple did enable an unlocked bootloader in 11.2 and SO Apple did allow users to load their kernels.

This is how Linux is possible on M1 Macs because Apple ALLOWED there to unlocked bootloader.

Remember bootcamp Apple allowed users to install Windows on THEIR equipment.
Looking at how Windows performs on Parallels, it’s already pretty sad. Perhaps Microsoft should remember what they’re here for and flog a few licenses?
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
No, that's not true, Federighi never said that the path forward is via virtualization. He was clearly referring to dual booting Windows on Arm.
Correct. From the Ars Technica interview:
As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it."

Edit: Earlier he did say that virtualization was the way forward though. I think he was talking about Linux in that case. I think it was in a video and I can’t find it right now.

Edit 2: Not specifically the video I was looking for but in this 2020 Daring Fireball interview Craig Federighi says clearly that he doesn’t think dual booting is the way to go. Apple may have changed their minds over time though as the Ars interview seems to indicate.
 
Last edited:

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
Ever heard of Boot Camp? Admittedly, it was on Intel CPUs, but it allowed Mac users to run Windows natively on their computers. That could be in the future. It's as possible as your contention.
Was? Bootcamp still exists and is supported by Apple. You can still run Windows natively on your Intel Mac. Apple even announced enhanced Magic Trackpad support for Windows on T2 Macs a few months ago.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.