Non-4K display for gaming on nMP?

[Yahooligan]

Not really. There are 6 TB ports. Who cares if just one of them are tagged with a TB v1 chain of devices? You'd still have 2-5x as many TB v2 ports than any other system out right now.

Personally, I'd rather have two of the Monoprice displays for less than the cost of one ATD whose ports are a lower spec than what the nMP offers.

I'm sure there are USB 2.0 devices. ( keyboard , mouse , dongle software/locks , etc. etc.) that most folks can use to populate those USB 2.0 sockets. Segregating USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 devices onto different USB controllers is a good thing; not a bad one. The older docking station/display can be put to use doing exactly that.

Sure folks with 5-6 USB 3.0 devices would need a better docking station display, but how big of a market is that? Folks crying the blues about not enough USB ports on Macs typically have gobs of legacy stuff they want directly attached; not the bleeding edge stuff.

It the docking station/display would have more long term viability if it had 3 USB 3.0 , FW 800 , Ethernet ports but the current on isn't that big of a deal on a Mac Pro.

On a 1 port MBA there is a difference. Those laptop systems with just one (maybe two) TB ports. Right now though, all TB v2 capable Mac systems have at least 2 (which reduces daisy chain pressure). The Mac Pro is in another whole different zip code from the rest of the line up.

So you're basically saying that having 3x USB2.0 and 1xTB1 daisy chain port built in to the ATD is worth $540? Because that's the price difference and advantage the ATD has over the non-Thunderbolt display I linked above.

Even the Sonnet TB docks are (going to be) cheaper than that AND provide even more functionality. Not only that, you end up decoupling the dock from the display. That's a win.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/index.html

For the money, the ATD just isn't the value that it used to be and, based on what's available or will be available soon, it is a downgrade.

 

[lesferdinand]

I'm sure there are USB 2.0 devices. ( keyboard , mouse , dongle software/locks , etc. etc.) that most folks can use to populate those USB 2.0 sockets. Segregating USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 devices onto different USB controllers is a good thing; not a bad one. The older docking station/display can be put to use doing exactly that.

Yes, exactly, I'd connect the Apple keyboard, Wacom tablet and wired mouse to the display.

Also, I'm using external hard drives primarily for back-up purposes. Given that the I/O speeds of the disks are the bottleneck there, does it really matter all that much if it's TB1 vs TB2? (I'm assuming SSD's will be cost prohibitive for back-up purposes for the foreseeable future)

 

[wildmac]

No angst here. Just amused and slightly bewildered. Most people don't go buying front end loaders when they need a shovel for their yard. If your neighbor (virtual or real) were to do so, if you didn't chuckle and think "What a nut." more power to you I guess.

I would say this is closer to a Rolex vs Timex discussion.. so as long as he's not buying the Rolex with food stamps, why should I care?

 

[Yahooligan]

Yes, exactly, I'd connect the Apple keyboard, Wacom tablet and wired mouse to the display.

Also, I'm using external hard drives primarily for back-up purposes. Given that the I/O speeds of the disks are the bottleneck there, does it really matter all that much if it's TB1 vs TB2? (I'm assuming SSD's will be cost prohibitive for back-up purposes for the foreseeable future)

USB2.0, not the HDD, is the bottleneck. Theoretical limit to USB2.0 is around 60MB/s, my 4TB USB3 HDD does over 100MB/sec consistently.

The only things I have plugged in to my ATD are the keyboard, mouse and Lightning sync cable for my iPad. All the USB ports on the display are now used up.

I have a USB3 hub for external storage. The ATD makes a nice dock for my rMBP, but "docking" an nMP? Save the money you'd spend on the ATD and use it on hardware that will have a longer useful life, IMO.

 

[lesferdinand]

No angst here. Just amused and slightly bewildered. Most people don't go buying front end loaders when they need a shovel for their yard.

I would definitely think that. But there are a couple of orders of magnitude of difference between a shovel and front end loaders. That difference (both in price and performance) is not that big between an iMac and a nMP. I understand that you were exaggerating for effect but I just don't think the point is all that valid here.

The nMP is faster than any current iMac for the tasks I would be using it for and minimizing the time waiting for a computer to process a filter or a render is important to me. I don't have that much free time.

 

[ActionableMango]

I'm thinking of getting the current Thunderbolt display in the interim, figuring that I'll be adding a 4K display to it in the next year or two for photo/video editing. I'd keep the non-4K display around for gaming purposes, assuming that even the D700's would struggle to maintain a 60FPS framerate at 4K resolution and a 'native' 2560x1440 screen would look better than a non-native resolution on a 4K display (and the latter may also introduce scaling lag). Does this reasoning make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I think this first gen 4K stuff should be avoided except for those who absolutely need it. Like a lot of first gen stuff, it's overly expensive, not very well implemented, and kind of thrown together.

That being said, I personally would never get an ACD. They are more expensive than similar quality monitors, have far less connection options, and far less ergonomic adjustments.

 

[lesferdinand]

USB2.0, not the HDD, is the bottleneck.

I was thinking of the potential future use-case of attaching TB1 hard drive enclosures to the ATP's Thunderbolt port. There's no real need to do so, as the nMP has plenty of TB2 ports. But even if I'd want to, performance wise it wouldn't make much of a difference, right, as the HDD read/write speed wouldn't exhaust TB1's bandwidth.

 

[Yahooligan]

I was thinking of the potential future use-case of attaching TB1 hard drive enclosures to the ATP's Thunderbolt port. There's no real need to do so, as the nMP has plenty of TB2 ports. But even if I'd want to, performance wise it wouldn't make much of a difference, right, as the HDD read/write speed wouldn't exhaust TB1's bandwidth.

That's correct, unless you went with something like an SSD RAID. It would take a lot of HDDs to saturate TB1.

 

[hwojtek]

Thanks! Why am I pissing people off though?

Also, I note a certain lack of in the sense of humor department.

 

[deconstruct60]

So you're basically saying that having 3x USB2.0 and 1xTB1 daisy chain port built in to the ATD is worth $540?

No. I didn't say anything about your mono price monitors. I was addressing your comment as to why current ATD were somehow not particularly useful anymore for a nMP. You are choosing to move to goalpost into how much cheaper it is.

Even the Sonnet TB docks are (going to be) cheaper than that AND provide even more functionality. Not only that, you end up decoupling the dock from the display. That's a win.

No it is a dual edge sword. Separate dock means separate power cord and additional TB cord. Price wise it is cheaper but there certainly folks who act is if the sky is going to fall if there 1-2 additional cord(s) on their desk. They may pay.

Like the other posters response the integrated webcam will have value to some. Again another set of cables.

Sure you can get a Sonnet dock with USB 3.0 but if fully populate it with USB 2.0 devices you are buying capability you are not using. If bought $400 of very high speed USB 3.0 devices, it is probably somewhat value not to hamper their system connect to the Mac Pro with legacy USB 2.0 chatter. Again if the Mac Pro only has USB 3.0 devices connected the internal USB 3.0 controller doesn't have to deal with legacy 2.0 chatter and throttling.

For the money, the ATD just isn't the value that it used to be and, based on what's available or will be available soon, it is a downgrade.

If talking about ATD versus stripped down display + dock it hasn't been the same value it initially was for much longer than the Mac Pro change. This has little to nothing to do with the Mac Pro's ports matching. That is initially what you labeled as motivating "downgrade".

The TB display is over two years old. ( September 2011 ). The price has problem more so due to not other new stuff but just for being an unrefreshed product. It is overdue. 27" IPS monitors have changed alot in price since then.

Why Apple didn't roll out a new version on 2012 iMac redesign? Maybe because waiting for TB v2 controllers to actually go into volume production in 2014. Waiting for same set of discrete USB 3.0 controller drivers that the Mac Pro will use ( an update probably will move forward on USB 3.0). In part probably also waiting to see just what "new normal" will be for non 4K displays. My guess that it is a bit of all three.

For Mac Pro Apple probably for more so needs a 21.5" version that is much more affordable. I doubt Apple even with a lower price is going to follow that stripped down Monoprice monitor into that price zone. They are going to do some integration as a value add.

 

[lesferdinand]

Also, I note a certain lack of in the sense of humor department.

Really?! Perhaps my European sense of irony doesn't translate that well...

 

[ohbrilliance]

I don't think a 6 year old iMac warrants having Apple replace the HDD. I was planning on getting a new machine anyway but was kind of holding out for a retina iMac.

But I'm sure I'll enjoy the nMP

A 2007 iMac is still a capable machine. Please put in a new hard drive or small SSD and at least give the machine away to somebody who can make use of it.

 

[deconstruct60]

I was thinking of the potential future use-case of attaching TB1 hard drive enclosures to the ATP's Thunderbolt port. There's no real need to do so, as the nMP has plenty of TB2 ports.

If they are sneaker-net TB HDDs ( that you'll be attaching/deatching regularly to transport large files ) then the single port on the ATD is easier not to mistakenly yank the wrong cable on.

As a pragmatically more permanent attachment point then yes one the Mac Pro will make more sense.

But even if I'd want to, performance wise it wouldn't make much of a difference, right, as the HDD read/write speed wouldn't exhaust TB1's bandwidth.

It depends upon how many HDDs you have on the TB v1 daisy chain. Add up enough doing concurrent access and you can. Single/Double sneaker-net transport drive enclosure then probably not.

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I would say this is closer to a Rolex vs Timex discussion.. ..

Not really when folks say they are looking for a Mac Pro mainly to read email, surf the web and play part time with some photo collection and serve itunes. it really is front end loader versus shovel time.

Frankly the bigger dust up disconnects are folks in that class ( or folks pointing to that class ) claiming they they are one of the primary market classes Apple is targeting with the Mac Pro. That there is some requirement that Apple have some system that primarily is intended to suck up discretionary income. To be expensive, for just be expensive sake has some sort value. "I want to blow $3K reading email" is in a totally different zone than "I have requirements that I blow $3K reading email".

 

[lesferdinand]

Personally, I'd rather have two of the Monoprice displays for less than the cost of one ATD whose ports are a lower spec than what the nMP offers.

...

For the money, the ATD just isn't the value that it used to be and, based on what's available or will be available soon, it is a downgrade.

Yeah, it definitely doesn't feel right to still pay the initial go-to-market price of $1,000 for two year old technology. It's more a matter of principle than that I really need USB 3.0 and TB2 extensions on the monitor.

I'm definitely going to look in-store at some of the cheaper alternatives. But the discussions here have strengthened my conviction that it's probably wiser to wait out the initial batch of 4K displays and see where the dust settles.

 

[Rich.Cohen]

I'm thinking of getting the current Thunderbolt display in the interim, figuring that I'll be adding a 4K display to it in the next year or two for photo/video editing. I'd keep the non-4K display around for gaming purposes, assuming that even the D700's would struggle to maintain a 60FPS framerate at 4K resolution and a 'native' 2560x1440 screen would look better than a non-native resolution on a 4K display (and the latter may also introduce scaling lag). Does this reasoning make sense?

I think your reasoning is sound. I'm in a similar position, but I already have a 2560 X 1600 monitor. Some time in the next 3-6 months I'll by a 4K. Unfortunately I have some unusual requirements, so I may have to compromise on what I buy. At present my fall-back is the 50" Seiki, but that is only capable of a 30Hz frame rate. I'm hoping for something better by the end of January.

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because most of the readers on here think us non-professional nMP buyers have no right to purchase the machine :-/

Non-professional?:roll eyes: I'm highly professional at what I do. I charge my clients in excess of $100/hour for it. I just don't do photography, music or videos and my graphics are engineering in nature. The nMP is exceeds some of my requirements, but it also provides some capabilities I don't think I can find elsewhere. Overall I find it an attractive compromise. I'll be placing my order tomorrow.

Don't anyone call me non-professional!

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I think this is the first time I've heard someone use the excuse of a dead HDD to buy a whole new computer. Stranger things have happened, though.

Enjoy the nMP.

Consider that was on a 6-year old computer. It was probably the last straw.

 

[lesferdinand]

A 2007 iMac is still a capable machine. Please put in a new hard drive or small SSD and at least give the machine away to somebody who can make use of it.

That's a good point. If my parents didn't live at the other side of the Atlantic, it would have gone to them, to rid them once and for all of Windows...

 

[Rich.Cohen]

No angst here. Just amused and slightly bewildered. Most people don't go buying front end loaders when they need a shovel for their yard. If your neighbor (virtual or real) were to do so, if you didn't chuckle and think "What a nut." more power to you I guess.

I probably would chuckle, but I might also be wrong. That neighbor might have a specialized need I know nothing about or might be aware of a downstream use I'd never considered.

Almost every one buys the occasional tool they don't need. I have a wood lath that I seldom use. On the other hand, many more people who make apparently silly purchases have a sound reason for them even if you wouldn't agree with that reason. How many people really need an iPhone?

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Well, to really throw some folks into conniption fits.. what games?

I'd argue that a lot of the Mac titles (especially the Blizzard ones) won't benefit at all from a 4k display, and might look a lot worse, since their texture maps aren't designed for that sort of display.

You'd likely get a better gaming experience from a standard HD monitor with higher framerates, than from attempting to move up to a 4k.

Edit: missread the first post a bit. But yeah, no 4k for games..

I play SimCity occasionally. I'd like to see if I can max out the visual quality setting on the nMP, but I'll do that on my existing monitor.

 

[ZnU]

Yes, that's what I'm counting on a bit. If the machine sells well enough, software developers will adjust their applications. Happy to contribute to that. It may benefit the pros as well.

It's more than just this machine, really. For a couple of decades there, Moore's Law made transistors smaller, and it turned out as they got smaller, you could also run them faster. This resulted in a long period -- overlapping with almost the entire history of personal computing -- during which the same code, written in the same way, just ran faster and faster every year, as clock speed ramped from below 1 MHz to over 3 GHz.

But unless there's some unforeseen breakthrough, those days are over for silicon ICs. Things have hit a wall, where cycling faster quickly begins to use way too much power and generate way too much heat. The future is now about parallel architecture. That means more CPU cores, yes, but fully general CPUs have constraints and complexities that make really massive parallelism difficult. GPUs, with their thousands of simple parallel cores, are the embodiment of mass-parallel architecture.

GPU compute isn't suitable for every sort of algorithm, of course. But with clock speeds stalled, it's what we've got. Now, I have little doubt that the computers on sale a decade from now will still be much more capable than the ones we have now. The new Mac Pro is a bet on Apple's part that more of that additional capability will come from improvement to GPU-like architectures than from the sort of CPU improvements we've seen historically.

If this bet is right, Apple will hardly be the only company building GPU-centric machines. It will inevitably become the new norm, as GPU performance increases outpace CPU performance increases. We may even seen CPUs evolve in more GPU-like directions (Intel's Many Integrated Core architecture is perhaps a step in that direction). Any algorithm that can be ported to the GPU will be ported to the GPU, and there will probably be entire new categories of software enabled by massively more powerful GPUs.

 

[lesferdinand]

Well, to really throw some folks into conniption fits.. what games?

The games I'm looking to be playing on the new machine are primarily Borderlands 2 (Mac version), Dark Souls (Windows only), Football Manager (Mac version; not graphically intensive but simulating all games in multiple leagues really made the iMac sweat) and hopefully Half Life 3, before the end of its useful life. It would be even better if I'd be able to run some of the Windows-only games in virtualization: booting in and out of Windows is a huge pain and a waste of time. I'd happily trade quite a bit of visual polish for that. I'd hope VMWare or Parallels would be able to do some nice things with a second GPU.

But in the end, those are secondary: most important for me is running Aperture, Photoshop with various plug-ins, iMovie and Blender as fast as possible on a machine that's 4K ready.

 

[lesferdinand]

I did some more research on the Dell u2713H. Reviews are pretty mixed, while they are pretty good on average for the ATP. Eventually, I want to move to a 4K display once those go down in price, so I'm less concerned with 10bit color for now (my deceased iMac didn't have that either and I've been pretty happy so far with how my prints turned out).

But my nMP won't be shipping till January, so I still have some time to make a final decision.

 

[McGiord]

What about reusing the iMac display?
Target Display Mode

 

[Gav Mack]

Apple displays are not calibrated out of the box. The Dell u2713H is. (Note that the HM is the cheap version. The H version is the one you want). I would also not let my wife make my computing purchases forcing me to buy inferior stuff just because it looks prettier.

I've seen 2713h next to a tb 27 and the Dell is better in my humblest in not only mine but the clients eyes too. Doesn't look as nice at all construction wise but it's the screen that counts. Not too glossy and the colours are better. Plus if you are ultra fussy after calibration ring Dell complain and they will swap it out. The earlier firmware models aren't as good, think the latest is a05.

I prefer the u2413 personally, think it's better than its bigger brother but you need the res..

 

[lesferdinand]

What about reusing the iMac display?
Target Display Mode

Unfortunately, my 2007 iMac doesn't support TDM.

 

[lesferdinand]

I've seen 2713h next to a tb 27 and the Dell is better in my humblest in not only mine but the clients eyes too. Doesn't look as nice at all construction wise but it's the screen that counts. Not too glossy and the colours are better. Plus if you are ultra fussy after calibration ring Dell complain and they will swap it out. The earlier firmware models aren't as good, think the latest is a05.

I prefer the u2413 personally, think it's better than its bigger brother but you need the res..

Its slow response time and tendency to overshoot worry me a bit for video editing work. It's not where I spend most of my time currently, but that is also partly caused by the sluggishness of editing video content on the old iMac.

And there is quite a bit of variability in the user reviews, while the ATD has pretty consistent good reviews. The increased color gamut is definitely a plus for the Dell, though I anticipate using a 4K display for photo/video work in the future, and then consider using the screen I'll buy initially as a second 'gaming' oriented display.