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"Nachdem wir unseren privaten Gesprächstermin mit AMDs verlorenem Sohn und Softwarechef Raja Koduri hatten, haben wir in Sachen offener Plattform noch einmal nachgehakt. AMD versteht Mantle nicht als offenen Standard à la OpenCL oder OpenGL. Man hofft aber, dass sich die API zu einer Art Industriestandard entwickeln wird und außer Dice und einigen bislang noch nicht näher genannten weiteren Entwicklern insbesondere die Unterstützung in den großen Lizenz-Engines etablieren wird. Denn die, so Koduri, hätten inzwischen einen weitaus wichtigeren Stellenwert als noch vor zehn Jahren. Daher sei auch eine Analogie zu Glide nicht ganz zutreffend. Falls aber ein anderer Hardwareanbieter AMD anspreche, um ebenfalls ein Backend für Mantle mit Spezialtreiber für seine eigene Hardware zu erstellen, werde AMD diese Ansuchen nicht von vornherein ablehnen, ergänzte Koduri."



Source: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980/Specials/AMD-Low-Level-API-Mantle-Battlefield-4-1090085/

A rough translation of the important tidbits:
- AMD does not consider Mantle to be an open standard like OpenCL or OpenGL.
- If another hardware vendor contacts AMD in order to create a backend for Mantle with a special device driver for his own hardware, then AMD does not generally decline such a solicitation.

For me this sounds as open as a G8-summit.


Ouch! I wonder if AMD have what it takes to support it, although given they control the console market now Mantle could very soon be a requirement.

Makes me all the more interested to see some real details, and reviews about performance with and without mantle.

Although it means getting an AMD card now, such as the 7950/7970 would be a good choice. As they're going to be the new 280/X cards.
 
True, drivers may be a problem... but a bigger problem than relying on 3rd parties to create a totally new form-factor of each card or relying on Apple to release multiple video card options? Yeah I think not.

You love making up stuff folks never said and railing against it. I made no comment at all about 3rd parties showing up to fill the custom GPU daughtercard market. It is extremely unlikely to happen.

Drivers are going to be a problem long term. You carefully clipped out the discussion of OS X support. Apple is going to drop support for older Mac Pros over time. Hardware wise it is in "black and white"

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1752

Software wise only need to note the flurry of angst when the the Mac Pro 2006-7 got dropped for 10.8 (Mountain Lion). When the hardware is dropped the software is going also. The end of the road for the 2008, 2009, and 2010 models is coming too. The "short term" market for 2009-2012 models already got filled in early 2013 with the 10.8.5 updates.
That 3rd parties jump in to fill the gap while Apple was still selling "box with slots" Mac Pro is not particularly surprising at all. That they are probably expecting another year or so of upgrades to trickle in of refurb buyers and a limited number of die-hards to the now legacy form factor? Nope not surprising at all.


Deployed , still in use 2006-2010 models and viable market for new cards and investment are two intersecting but not completely overlapping markets. Over time the bulk of those stagnant models are into stagnant configuration mode (e.g., fixed OS X version). That will largely eliminate them from new drivers and hence new GPU cards.

How's that 5870 working out for you? Keep in mind it is STILL the top video card available as a BTO option in the Mac Pro.

Relevancy? There is a new Mac Pro in 2013. Yes Apple went into a hole. from 2010-2013. In the years previous to 2010, when wasn't the Mac Pro or PowerMac video card not making progress year over year?

You can cherry pick sampling, but it only indicative there is very little substance to what you are flapping your arms about. Sure if Apple goes 2-3 years without updating this Mac Pro base design with new GPUs then the users will be in trouble. If customers buy this new Mac Pro in substantive amounts why would they do that?


This card was released in September 2009 - Four years and counting! Happy 4th birthday!

The current motherboard in Mac Pro being sold today was designed in 2008. Your point? The card is circa with the associated hardware in the current Mac Pro. There is a coupling here even if you refuse to see it.


You want to talk about small markets. The number of Old Mac Pros out there will outnumber the new Mac Pros for a very long time, and just look at the plethora of options Apple has laid out for us!

Apple only and Apple + 3rd Party isn't particularly much different if normalized against the size/diversity of the general PC market. It isn't what Apple has done over time that is the primary issue you are trying to distract from. It is what the 3rd party vendors have done over time. The 3rd party vendor participation rate has always been low. It never did crank into a broad market. That is exactly why the homespun "flash"/"tweaked" card market sprung up for the Mac Pro. That market was not the sign of a healthy 3rd party market. If that isn't working why continue to go through the Sisyphean effort ?

The waiting primary reward awaiting any 3rd party who jumps into that stagnant market is a bunch of folks who are going to pinch the ROMs the vendor invested R&D money into and squeeze that vendor out of GPU cards sales.


This is also assuming Apple doesn't abandon the iTube form-factor before they update the video cards.

It is highly doubtful Apple created this to abandon it. If nobody buys then perhaps. If about just as many buy this as the old version I doubt they will abandon it. Even if this dies Apple is extremely likely not going to bring the old box-with-slots back. That wasn't a success either. It isn't like Apple "pulled the plug" on a major best seller model. It will go into the same pile as printers , XServe , XRaid , primary monitors , etc of stuff Apple used to do.


That's quite a lot of faith you're putting into this product lines popularity!

It helps not to be in denial or myopically focused on form over function (step 0: the solution has to be a box-with-slots).

I think Apple has alot more access to Mac Pro user demographics and buying patterns than you do. My "faith" is grounded in an expectation that Apple is proactively looking at both groups of users and at where technology is going over time and aiming the products to where those intersect in the future. That they don't drive Apple by looking in the review mirror constantly.

The rise of GPGPU means dual GPUs make sense over the next 5 years for high performance computational workstations. Kowtowing to Nvidia or AMD fanboy criteria doesn't.


How much R&D are they going to pump into cramming the latest cards into an iTube-sized heat-dissipation-nightmare before they decide to divert that budget into creating a new hockey-puck mouse for their Mac Mini?

Your problem is that you don't have alot facts to back up "heat dissipation nightmare". Apple hasn't come back to the hockey puck mouse in over a decade... why would they now? In fact, Apple has been pushing folks toward trackpads, not mice, for several years now. How detached from reality are you?

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Ouch! I wonder if AMD have what it takes to support it, although given they control the console market now Mantle could very soon be a requirement.

Having the same API on PCs and consoles isn't a requirement now, there is nothing new to make it a requirement going forward. Even more so if this gets restricted to only AMD cards on Windows boxes.

It may cut porting costs for some, but frankly the cost of porting hasn't been a huge inhibitor now. If game revenues crater perhaps but.

The "open" part probably more so has to do with perhaps porting this to Linux and having to interface low level with an open source license at the kernel level and with a open source development team. Not that AMD is primarily inviting in Nvidia , Imagin Tech , Qualcomm and the other GPU vendors.
 
Are you going to try and hijack another thread and turn it in to a New Mac Pro hate thread? That horse has been beaten to death already.

My original comment just reported the fact that people buying the New Mac Pro (this is the Mac Pro forum, right?) will not be able to run this card.

deconstruct60 proceded to run down a huge list of convoluted and unlikely reasons I was wrong, and I pointed to real-world examples showing why some of his reasons were stretching it just a tad.

Probably the most pertinent of these examples:
1) Even if it is possible to upgrade nMP GPUs (which he has NO evidence to say it can), nMP owners will rely entirely on Apple unlike current MP owners (We agree on this)
2) Apple has historically been abysmal at keeping up with modern video card technologies (We agree on this too). For example: the rumored top video card option in the nMP (roughly a 7970) will be 2 years old when the nMP is released. Apple is wasting no time in being behind in the market on this.

I do think it is pertinent to this thread to point out that it will not be compatible with the current line of Mac Pros at the time of release, especially when the issue is in dispute... For some reason I didn't think it would be as it seems obvious. I think this information is helpful for those who would desire a product like this, but are also considering a new Mac Pro (again, this is the Mac Pro forum, right?). Perhaps they're better suited to buy a refurb cheesegrater or a hackintosh... Or a PC.
 
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My original comment just reported the fact that people buying the New Mac Pro (this is the Mac Pro forum, right?) will not be able to run this card.

deconstruct60 proceded to run down a huge list of convoluted and unlikely reasons I was wrong, and I pointed to real-world examples showing why some of his reasons were stretching it just a tad.

Probably the most pertinent of these examples:
1) Even if it is possible to upgrade nMP GPUs (which he has NO evidence to say it can), nMP owners will rely on entirely on Apple unlike current MP owners (We agree on this)
2) Apple has historically been abysmal at keeping up with modern video card technologies (We agree on this too). For example: the rumored top video card option in the nMP (roughly a 7970) will be 2 years old when the nMP is released.

I do think it is pertinent to this thread to point out that it will not be compatible with the current line of Mac Pros at the time of release, especially when the issue is in dispute... For some reason I didn't think it would be as it seems obvious. I think this information is helpful for those who would desire a product like this, but are also considering a new Mac Pro (again, this is the Mac Pro forum, right?). Perhaps they're better suited to buy a refurb cheesegrater or a hackintosh... Or a PC.

Look. Spare us. You've already started enough polls and/or threads to voice your displeasure regarding the New Mac Pros. Stop trying to hijack threads that have absolutely nothing to do with the New Mac Pro.
 
[QUOTE
I do think it is pertinent to this thread to point out that it will not be compatible with the current line of Mac Pros....[/QUOTE]

Of the 29 posts in this thread, #1 #3 #7 #9 #12 #13 #14 #15 #21 #23 #27
#28 and #29 all have references to the nMP!

You are correct about this being the "MacRumors" forum. There should be balance between the "Pro and Con" pertaining to the nMP.

You are a welcomed voice! :)

Sure will be glad when that thing comes out so all the speculation can end!:p
 
Sure will be glad when that thing comes out so all the speculation can end!:p

You and I both, I would like some solid information and a new card for my system. :)

I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, though I feel it is highly unlikely, I really hope this new card line somehow ends up in the nMP at time of release! I think that this would not only keep Apple in the game, but also make it far more likely (assured, even) that drivers will be available for those wanting to upgrade their cheesegrater pros. Perhaps the ROM community could even figure out how to flash PC cards to Mac, as they have many other cards.

OP even pointed out that they are dual 6 pin. Here's to hoping!

As far as deconstruct60's pessimism about long-term support for "cheesegrater" Mac Pros: He uses the example of 10.8 dropping '06-'08 Pros. As he almost certainly realizes, however, the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pros only had EFI32. In addition to that, Apple did not want to create 64 bit drivers for the original 2006 card selection like the X1900 and 7300GT. This is why you can swap these cards out and rig 10.8 to run on a 2006 MP without issue using a couple of software tricks to "fool" 10.8 into thinking you have EFI64. Apple may just decide to fart on Cheesegrater Pro users by simply adding the model number to an arbitrary "no fly list" (I believe they did that with the early powerPCs and 10.0/10.1, IIRC), but they would have no excuse to do so for a very long time. Also, potentially there could be software issues they would refuse to fix. The move / dropping of legacy support from PPC to intel and EFI 32 to 64 were substantive and potentially necessary decisions which are likely not to be seen again for a few years. According to the software, there's not a lot of difference between a 2010 Mac Pro and a nMP. I mean, what excuse are they going to use? ....

pkhJXoV.jpg
 
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