Off on holiday but not sure I can be bothered to take my camera

[r.harris1]

I for one would love to see computational imaging heavily adopted in APS-C cameras for the best of both worlds. That won't happen though as long as Japanese camera makers weak on software rule the roost. Sony maybe, but that's one of the reasons I miss Samsung no longer being in this space.

The thing is, computational image-making is 100% required for phones as the images would be noise-filled nightmares otherwise, with tiny sensors and pixel pitch, as well as having very little DOF choice because of the lenses. You literally couldn’t make a useable photograph on phones without heavy computational imaging (a broad category, obviously). For larger cameras, aside from the existing heavy computational capabilities with auto-focus and such, I can certainly see some subset of capabilities from phone tech getting mainstreamed in. Many would likely start out on flagship cameras rather than APS-C, I’d guess. I can see an overlap with some of the multi-imaging techniques from phones, such as frame averaging brought in to mimic long exposure or to apply noise reduction techniques. Also automated HDR or focus stacking, perhaps.

I should add too, like others who’ve commented, I want as much control over my camera as I can get and at least have the option of making my own decisions. There’s a disease of convenience that can take things over.

 

[seggy]

I would never want this. Let me choose my lens and DOF and an editing program and I'll make the image what I want it to be, not some algorithm.

What makes you think computational imaging on even a prosumer camera wouldn't be exactly what that's about?

 

[r.harris1]

What makes you think computational imaging on even a prosumer camera wouldn't be exactly what that's about?

Not answering for mollyc, but when you say “computational imaging”, how are you defining it? All modern cameras do it, phones do it out of necessity. There’s already overlap. What features do you want to move from phones to dedicated cameras? This might help the discussion since “computational imaging” is such a broad topic.

 

[seggy]

Not answering for mollyc, but when you say “computational imaging”, how are you defining it? All modern cameras do it, phones do it out of necessity. There’s already overlap. What features do you want to move from phones to dedicated cameras? This might help the discussion since “computational imaging” is such a broad topic.

Computational photography - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's a handy definition already out there, imagine.

Basic tech needed on mainstream prosumer cameras to make this happen:
- Faster readout
- Much more current SoCs
- And of course, the software to make it happen at a photographer level - instead of the proprietary solutions that obviously failed like Light, a smarter idea to work directly with industry standard partners like Adobe to offer a standard encapsulation format.

 

[r.harris1]

Computational photography - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's a handy definition already out there, imagine.

Most of us are definitely well aware of this web page - and many, many others - so no need to point it out, but more curious as to what you want to see from a phone in a dedicated camera. If you have nothing specific, fine, just interested is all.

 

[r.harris1]

Most of us are definitely well aware of this web page - and many, many others - so no need to point it out, but more curious as to what you want to see from a phone in a dedicated camera. If you have nothing specific, fine, just interested is all.

And sorry - I only saw the initial post of the web page, so appreciate the additional detail.

 

[r.harris1]

Computational photography - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's a handy definition already out there, imagine.

Basic tech needed on mainstream prosumer cameras to make this happen:
- Faster readout
- Much more current SoCs
- And of course, the software to make it happen at a photographer level - instead of the proprietary solutions that obviously failed like Light, a smarter idea to work directly with industry standard partners like Adobe to offer a standard encapsulation format.

De-coupling silicon advancement (which is slowing down greatly) and readout (still lots of headroom available) has long been a good thing, along with speeding up the evolution of those chips that do the reading. I expect that global shutter will play a big role in that now that it’s out in the wild. More rapid SoC advancement will probably also slot in there too. I am (personally) less interested in solutions like Light, though I wouldn’t turn it down as an option.

 

[mollyc]

What makes you think computational imaging on even a prosumer camera wouldn't be exactly what that's about?

My experience with iPhoneography leads me to mushy colors and details. Admittedly a larger sensor and better glass might mitigate that, but I still prefer to be given the raw data from the camera and then let me do with it what I want to in post.

But then I'm old school. I still shoot film and develop it myself. Although, alas, no printing, just scanning. So a hybrid method.

 

[cjsuk]

Last phone shot just leaving the alps. This was very very dark and a night shot with some contrast and colour editing.

Compare to the one I took going the other way a few weeks back in the day with the Z50

 

[sfphoto]

I would mostly miss having a viewfinder if I only had a phone. My list of other camera features is long but most have been addresses in this thread.

 

[cjsuk]

I would mostly miss having a viewfinder if I only had a phone. My list of other camera features is long but most have been addresses in this thread.

Agree there.

Found another issue as well. The iPhone 15 Pro LiDAR is used for focusing and camera selection. So when you’re shooting through glass, such as a plane window it tries constantly to focus on the glass itself. I had to cover the LiDAR with my finger to get it to not do stupid things like taking photos of the dirt on the airbus window.

 

[mollyc]

Agree there.

Found another issue as well. The iPhone 15 Pro LiDAR is used for focusing and camera selection. So when you’re shooting through glass, such as a plane window it tries constantly to focus on the glass itself. I had to cover the LiDAR with my finger to get it to not do stupid things like taking photos of the dirt on the airbus window.

I have a 14; I'm not sure it uses lidar to focus, but my phone does have lidar. Anyway, sometimes I try to take a photo through my window to the outside, and our windows have screens. What I figured out (via googling), is to hold the camera back farther away, for a wider scene so that the screen isn't right at the front of the image. Then press and hold where you want your focal point to be, and it will focus lock, then you can move the camera closer to the window and the screen will remain unfocused.

 

[adrianlondon]

I had an SLR (Canon 40D; had film cameras before this) but sold it and bought a Canon P&S (Powershot S95) which had all the controls (manual, A, S etc.) and discovered that it was easier to take photos of scenes involving people as waving an SLR with big lens on it caused people to freeze and pose a bit.

So I spent a couple of years with my S95 which, apart from having a smaller sensor and not having the nice shutter-clap or decent viewfinder, did the job.

Then, on a cycling holiday in Asia where I was concerned about (a) vibrations trashing the SD card (b) dropping it (c) charging it and (d) theft, I risked it all and just used my phone.

Hooked on the simplicity, I sold my S95 and have only used my phone since. I'm not a photographer, I just take photos to show people where I've been and as keepsakes for myself. Apart from it being crap in low light and all the fancy depth-of-field stuff being faked in s/w, it's fine. I put up with its faults to save bringing a separate camera with me to places.

(I have an iPhone 11 so seem to be quite lucky in not having lots of processing done to the photo.)

 

[JamesMay82]

I’m a complete amateur but use a Sony a7 3 which I just use for family stuff. I find on holidays it’s a massive pain lugging bag and taking in and out if bag etc when the kids do something funny etc.

I love the results I get and I know I’m happy with my purchase but I only bought it because while iPhone photos looks great on the iPhone I was never truly happy when I got home and views on tv or iMac etc.

Now I wonder if there Is more portable cameras that are as good as a73?

 

[cjsuk]

I have a 14; I'm not sure it uses lidar to focus, but my phone does have lidar. Anyway, sometimes I try to take a photo through my window to the outside, and our windows have screens. What I figured out (via googling), is to hold the camera back farther away, for a wider scene so that the screen isn't right at the front of the image. Then press and hold where you want your focal point to be, and it will focus lock, then you can move the camera closer to the window and the screen will remain unfocused.

Interesting trick. I will try that. Thanks!

 

[sfphoto]

and our windows have screens

The rule of thumb when using a camera is to have the lens the same distance from the screen/chainlink/hardware cloth as the focal length of the lens that is in use.

 

[sfphoto]

more portable camera

Sony RX100 models are very popular & fit in a pocket.
My fav is the Panasonic DMC LX7. 21-90mm eq Leica lens, Raw, full manual or auto. An affordable pocket gem.

Panasonic DMC-LX7

The safest and most inclusive global community of photography enthusiasts. The best place for inspiration, connection, and sharing!

www.flickr.com

However, no point n shoot will have the great a7x full frame sensor, for:
reproducing really large
shooting in low light

OR have the rapid accurate focusing and short shutter delay that the a7 line is known for
i.e. "when the kids do something funny"

 

[seggy]

I’m a complete amateur but use a Sony a7 3 which I just use for family stuff. I find on holidays it’s a massive pain lugging bag and taking in and out if bag etc when the kids do something funny etc.

I love the results I get and I know I’m happy with my purchase but I only bought it because while iPhone photos looks great on the iPhone I was never truly happy when I got home and views on tv or iMac etc.

Now I wonder if there Is more portable cameras that are as good as a73?

I think it depends on what you're willing to compromise on.

The RX100 is a popular and compact camera, but it's value quotient is, I think, getting almost redundant when compared to a current flagship phone - there just isn't a big enough image benefit for even the small carry. It's also a cumbersome camera to use beyond full auto because there isn't enough room for decent controls. I'd say in the majority of cases it's actually worse than a phone.

I used to have a D-Lux 109 then the D-Lux 7 a long time ago as a secondary (Otherwise known as a Panasonic LX100 & II) which has a slightly cropped micro 4/3rds sensor, which Leica have brought back recently with a minor update as the D-Lux 8 (an LX100 II update with no hardware changes). This is a much better camera in terms of controls compared to the RX100 along with a slightly larger sensor and a better lens... but again, I think the image benefits over a phone are still on the debatable side, though not as potentially worthless as the RX100.

To me full frame & bright primes is where it's mainly at, and I primarily shoot current Leica Q's and M's (as well as SL, and the heavier/video-duty Panasonics and Sony bodies). The Q/M's are not compact as such, but they are small for full frame and significantly smaller than an A7 with a decent equivalent prime. The Q3's have pretty much unmatched controls in terms of both manual and auto shooting and it's what I use most - either a Q or M with a prime I've picked out for the day goes with me pretty much everywhere.

Fuji APS-C is another option with a pancake, also a fixed lens like the Fuji X100 would be notably more compact than the A7 again - and while the images probably won't wow in comparison to again the Alpha and a decent prime, it will be noticeably better than a phone and a lot of people like this rangefinder pastiche. Personally I'm not a fan - the controls and usage experience are pretty diabolical when compared with the Q despite the potential niche attractions of stuff like a leaf shutter, but you might not be as controls-focused as I am as a particular type of often manual shooter.

Other options - You could consider swapping to one of the compact or APS-C Alphas to cut a few inches/grams and pick up a compact prime(s). I'm still interested in the Lumix S9 - the first truly compact full-frame interchangeable, and the spiritual successor to the M4/3 GM1 - but until there are some actually compact <F4 full-frame pancakes in the 25 and 40mm range to have plugged into the front the vast majority of the time, it's kind of a product looking for a solution. I believe they've mentioned about rolling something like these out but I haven't seen them so far.

Then there's always sticking a compact prime like the Zeiss 35/2.8 on the A7, or even a manual focus prime on it of course...

 

[Ctrlos]

Thanks for the reply. Nice and detailed

I’m hiking as well (up Vesuvius in the pissing rain without the aid of the bus). And flying easyjet.

Will have a think. Have an hour to decide 😂

Its raining. Take the only camera that is waterproof!

 

[bunnspecial]

I have a 14; I'm not sure it uses lidar to focus, but my phone does have lidar. Anyway, sometimes I try to take a photo through my window to the outside, and our windows have screens. What I figured out (via googling), is to hold the camera back farther away, for a wider scene so that the screen isn't right at the front of the image. Then press and hold where you want your focal point to be, and it will focus lock, then you can move the camera closer to the window and the screen will remain unfocused.

I have to admit that I wasn't aware of iPhones doing this, but if that's the case...well we've come full circle to 80s/90s P&S cameras.

Admittedly I'd think/hope that there's still some sort of on-sensor focusing there. I can't imagine there's not, as the technology is certainly there and CPUs are powerful enough these days that even contrast detect isn't as slow as it once was.

(I'll be curious to see if there comes a point where mirrorless loses phase detect completely and reverts entirely to contrast detect. Nikon still can't match the noise performance of the D850 in a 45mp sensor, and especially not the performance of the D5/D6 20mp sensor, even in the latest cameras thanks partially to on-sensor phase detect eating up pixel real estate...)

 

[mollyc]

I have to admit that I wasn't aware of iPhones doing this, but if that's the case...well we've come full circle to 80s/90s P&S cameras.

Admittedly I'd think/hope that there's still some sort of on-sensor focusing there. I can't imagine there's not, as the technology is certainly there and CPUs are powerful enough these days that even contrast detect isn't as slow as it once was.

(I'll be curious to see if there comes a point where mirrorless loses phase detect completely and reverts entirely to contrast detect. Nikon still can't match the noise performance of the D850 in a 45mp sensor, and especially not the performance of the D5/D6 20mp sensor, even in the latest cameras thanks partially to on-sensor phase detect eating up pixel real estate...)

I use the LIDAR function on my phone to measure distances for my Pentax 17 since it only has zone focus and I'm horrible at estimating distances. It's kind of cumbersome but really helps when I take the time to do it.

But the Polaroid I-2 and the new Rollei 35AF both use built in Lidar to focus for those cameras.

 

[Saturn007]

Some phone highlights. Decided to do the entire edit cycle on the phone as well. Only Apple Photos was used. I created a shortcut which scales and exports the images as JPEGs.

Impressive photos! You have a good eye. Well composed and captivating.