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Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
Apple might be testing the waters and waiting for cheaper higher end Yonah chips for the MacBook Pro. I guess we won't be seeing an iBook until the MacBook Pro's get another bump. Still the $799 price for 20 GB of space, another core, and the SuperDrive seem outrageous to me too. It seems like a replay of the old Rev. A/B iMac G5's. An entire extra price level just for a SuperDrive before you get 20".

\/ *points to signature*
 

Samberino

macrumors newbie
May 27, 2004
24
0
Intel iBook/MacBook Graphics

Just a question; with the recent announcement of the Intel based Mac mini, and its use of integrated graphics, what do you reckon are the chances that the upcoming intel iBook/MacBook will be using the same. Hoping Apple will not go down that path, but wouldnt be surprised if they did after seeing whats happened with the Mac mini. It makes sense though, as using integrated graphics would reduce the components inside and make it smaller and lighter.
 

generik

macrumors 601
Aug 5, 2005
4,116
1
Minitrue
Samberino said:
Just a question; with the recent announcement of the Intel based Mac mini, and its use of integrated graphics, what do you reckon are the chances that the upcoming intel iBook/MacBook will be using the same. Hoping Apple will not go down that path, but wouldnt be surprised if they did after seeing whats happened with the Mac mini. It makes sense though, as using integrated graphics would reduce the components inside and make it smaller and lighter.

I'm pretty sure Apple will use IIG on the Macbook :p

Well we'll see in one month's time :D
 

thies

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2002
202
0
munkees said:
iMac and the MBP have integrated graphics too.

I here all this integrated graphics is bad, well my imac dc has integrated graphics, if not I would be able to swap it out. HELLO !

Still the proof of performance has yet to be seen, I being possitive, I planning on purchasing one int he near future, with my Another MAX out iMac 20" DC

thanks for the laugh.
 

Macmadant

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 4, 2005
851
0
wow, over two hundred post's and from what i've skimmed through i think, that most of you are saying it was a mistake, that apple used these chips in the mac mini, obviously to save money. and i hope the mini, is as far as it will go. if the macbook has intel graphics i will be forced to get a macbookpro, especially after looking at those, UT 2004 benchmarks.
 

munkees

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2005
1,027
1
Pacific Northwest
jsw said:
Not sure if people in this thread saw it, but there are Xbench scores for a stock mini (the post above mine).

The graphics are about half those of the iMac.

The disk scores are much lower - which suggests an issue with net boot or something (virtual memory), because a 5400 rpm SATA shouldn't be that much slower than a 7200 rpm one.

I am sorry, but xBench sucks so bad as a bench mark program in so many areas I cannot beleive its score. and if you at the top of the thread for computer hardware then you will see a sticky about benchmarks.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/173998/

BTW I am posting this from a windows XP which I use a work and it blows sooo badddd.

What makes the Mac Different than a PC, is not the hardware, it is the software.

i here the comparison of Mac price compared to better PC for the smae price, but those PC don't run MAC OS X nor do they run iLife, and when the apps all become universal, it a sweet solution, personally evern though I don't like the price increase, and the GPU, I still think this little BOX rocks, and it fills a place in my house as my media hub see link

http://homepage.mac.com/munkees/planetresearch/Network Layout.html


If you do not like the hardware and want one of those better PC, then go buy one, enjoy windows Me I am happy with Apples solution. If the Mac mini did not have front row, then that would suck.

I will be able to share my movies around the house, I will not store the movies on my mini but my home server. Cool I can playit on the macmin with a LCD 24" acting as my screen. I am excited
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,973
Rocksaurus said:
The price difference between Core Solo and Core Duo is a lot larger than $25. Especially now with Core Duos being in short supply still.

The difference in price between a 1.66 Solo and a 1.66 Duo is $32.

There are no 1.5 Solos listed, so Apple might be underclocking a 1.66
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,973
segundo said:
Apple did a fantastic job with the CPU choices in the Mac mini.

Core Solo is a bad choice. The right choice for the low end would be Celeron M.

Of course, this is assuming that the Celeron Ms to be released in April have the same packaging as the Cores. You couln't offer it today and use the same motherboard for Duos (and using the current Celeron Ms would result in an uglier installed base, as they don't have SSE3).

If they offer a Celeron M mini for $499 in April, everything will be fine in the CPU department (except for the inflated price difference between Solo and Duo).
 

jacobj

macrumors 65816
Apr 22, 2003
1,124
87
Jersey
OK, so I am going to add my comments even if they are repeating others. Yes the mini sucks for any form of GPU work, but Apple appear to want to market it as a media hub.

Oh, but wait, it has a standard build of Tiger and all that and it is....erm... I can't defend it. The intel Mac Mini sucks and I wouldn't buy one if they were giving them away for a dollar a piece (OK I exaggerated ;))....

The mini is a computer with an identity crisis and it was the main event at a press conference. Good God...
 

peharri

macrumors 6502a
Dec 22, 2003
744
0
Airforce said:
The blame still belongs to Intel for producing just barely acceptable solutions.
The blame belongs to Apple for restricting their choice to Intel. Intel doesn't have to produce everything, especially if other companies are producing exactly what Apple needs at affordable prices.
 

tjwett

macrumors 68000
May 6, 2002
1,880
0
Brooklyn, NYC
cube said:
...If they offer a Celeron M mini for $499 in April, everything will be fine in the CPU department (except for the inflated price difference between Solo and Duo).

i don't see how Apple should get special expectation to price things according to their cost. no one else in the world does it. an $80 shirt from JCrew likely cost them $1.50 to construct. it's value to the buyer has very little to do with that. Apple isn't selling these things out of the back of a truck. if having the added power of a second processor is worth $200 to the end user then that's what they will sell it for. nike sells $200 sneakers that they pay some 10 year old kid to make in a third world factory for a dollar a day.
 

peharri

macrumors 6502a
Dec 22, 2003
744
0
xterm said:
I just ran Xbench on my stock Core Duo 1.66GHz, and the new Mac Mini destroys the G4 Mac Mini in OpenGL performance

http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc1=158732&doc2=146457

if you use digg.com, digg this story please http://digg.com/apple/Mac_Mini_Core_Duo_1.66Ghz_Benchmarks._OpenGL_over_2x_Faster_than_G4
On the other hand, MacInTouch is suggesting OpenGL is slower with the new card. (That is, hardware OpenGL - which is graphics card dependent - runs significantly slower. I'm wondering if XBench just tests software OpenGL, which is going to run faster because of the CPU, but isn't a "real world" test in that nobody in their right mind uses software OGL):

1.5GHz PowerPC Mini: Hardware: 530, Software: 427
Core Solo Mini: Hardware: 438, Software: 869

The software speed is actually pretty impressive, but it has to be considered that real world use will never get that fast because, by its very nature, it'll be sharing CPU with the applications that use the rendering. That's 869 on a machine otherwise sitting idle.

These are using Cinebench. Other testing systems may differ, though they shouldn't that radically. Most importantly, these benchmarks fit independent, non-Mac, benchmarks that have always suggested the GMA950 will be slower than chipsets like the 9200.

At this point I'll try to look at the positive. I'm hoping the poor performance of the GMA950 will be made up for by the Core Duo in the higher-end model. I really think, right now, it was a bad idea to release a low-end model with a Core Solo. There aren't enough universal binaries for the Core Solo to have acceptable performance. If I were Apple, and I'm not, I'd have continued to sell an upgraded, low end, PowerPC based Mac mini, and released the Core Duo version of the Mac mini, with a slightly better graphics card (even, if necessary, at a higher price.) The line up would have looked something like this:


Mac mini G4 1.5GHz, 512Mb of memory, Airport and Bluetooth (no modem), SPDIF out, more USB ports: $500
w/Superdrive: $600
w/Superdrive and 1G of memory: $700

Mac mini Core Duo, same as announced, but w/Radeon X1600: $999
w/2GHz and 1G of memory: $1,199

And in a year, once the Universal Binaries are, well, universal, they can replace the entire G4 line with Core Solos.

You know what's mucked up? Despite Apple presumably looking at that and going "But... but... that's even more expensive! Our profit margin would be ridiculously huge and everyone would know it!", I'd probably buy that Intel configuration. Whereas I just plain will not buy what they announced. The Mac mini is not an entry-level Mac, it's a small, three-box, Mac, priced more reasonably (and across a wider-set of price points) than Apple's first attempt (the Cube.) Apple doesn't seem to understand its own product, releasing something that appears to be a lobotomized Mac this time around rather than something within that spirit. There are configurations priced well into four digits that people would buy. I'm a big fan of the concept, it's a shame that every time someone says "You're not selling one powerful enough", Apple shouts "But that'd eat into our iMac sales" rather than recognizing that a Mac mini sold at, say, a couple of hundred dollars less than the equivalent iMac would have a higher profit margin and be more desirable to a significant number of us.

Bah.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,973
tjwett said:
i don't see how Apple should get special expectation to price things according to their cost. no one else in the world does it. an $80 shirt from JCrew likely cost them $1.50 to construct. it's value to the buyer has very little to do with that. Apple isn't selling these things out of the back of a truck. if having the added power of a second processor is worth $200 to the end user then that's what they will sell it for. nike sells $200 sneakers that they pay some 10 year old kid to make in a third world factory for a dollar a day.

The difference between a Dell Inspiron E1705 with Solo and Duo is $50, for example.
 

tjwett

macrumors 68000
May 6, 2002
1,880
0
Brooklyn, NYC
cube said:
The difference between a Dell Inspiron E1705 with Solo and Duo is $50, for example.

we all know the Mac will always be more expensive than the PC. do i wish i could buy Macs at the cost it took to build them? of course! hell, i wish they could be as cheap as PCs too. they just aren't and never will be. the difference in the Dells being only $50 is a perfect example. but complaining about the price of Macs is like complaining about the sun because it sets in the evening. it's always gonna be. Apple will never sell a computer for "cheap", no matter what is inside. the mini is their version of "cheap". obviously not cheap enough for everyone. but if the only alternative is to save a few bucks and run Windows on a PC then well, that's not very appetizing either.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,055
6
Yahooville S.C.
My guess is that the cpu is so much better in the new Mini that going with the cheap integrated graphics doesnt matter as much, Sort of like the cpu is making up for the weaker video by feeding it so much better if you will. Still apple could have had the $20 dollar option of a real gpu, something between iMacs video and this. Fx5200:D
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,973
tjwett said:
we all know the Mac will always be more expensive than the PC. do i wish i could buy Macs at the cost it took to build them? of course! hell, i wish they could be as cheap as PCs too. they just aren't and never will be. the difference in the Dells being only $50 is a perfect example. but complaining about the price of Macs is like complaining about the sun because it sets in the evening. it's always gonna be. Apple will never sell a computer for "cheap", no matter what is inside. the mini is their version of "cheap". obviously not cheap enough for everyone. but if the only alternative is to save a few bucks and run Windows on a PC then well, that's not very appetizing either.

You just switched from "nobody sells at cost" to "it's not at cost because it's Apple".
 

tjwett

macrumors 68000
May 6, 2002
1,880
0
Brooklyn, NYC
cube said:
You just switched from "nobody sells at cost" to "it's not at cost because it's Apple".

not really, you're misunderstanding me. of course no business who is interested in staying in business sells without a profit. i'm agreeing with you in saying that yes, Apple sells for more money and probably more of a markup than other computer makers. no denying that. i'm just not surprised, disappointed or expecting otherwise because it's Apple and that's how it always has been.
 

isgoed

macrumors 6502
Jun 5, 2003
328
0
Dont Hurt Me said:
My guess is that the cpu is so much better in the new Mini that going with the cheap integrated graphics doesnt matter as much, Sort of like the cpu is making up for the weaker video by feeding it so much better if you will. Still apple could have had the $20 dollar option of a real gpu, something between iMacs video and this. Fx5200:D
I never thought the day would come that I would read these words coming from a posting by you. Seems that my earlier assesment that you will never be satisfied were wrong. Don't Hurt Me, I declare you cured! (well almost :D)
 

xterm

macrumors newbie
Feb 24, 2006
29
0
peharri said:
a heap of stuff

I think you are probably right, here is the cinebench results:

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Tester : xterm

Processor : 1.66GHz Core Duo Mac Mini
MHz : 1666
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : Mac Os 10.4.5

Graphics Card : Intel GMA950
Resolution : 1600x1200
Color Depth : Millions
****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 255 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 473 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.85

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 300 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1075 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 545 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 3.58

****************************************************

The GMA950 does not have hardware T&L, so how does it do the Hardware Lighting test?
 

Spanky Deluxe

macrumors demi-god
Mar 17, 2005
5,285
1,789
London, UK
xterm said:
The GMA950 does not have hardware T&L, so how does it do the Hardware Lighting test?

I'm not sure but the Hardware Lighting test could be using the shader units which the GMA950 does have. The rest of the work will probably be done by the CPU.
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
xterm said:
The GMA950 does not have hardware T&L, so how does it do the Hardware Lighting test?

The software test is done with the program using software T&L. The hardware test is done by calling the graphics card to do it. In this case calling the openGL library which in turn calls the OS 3D routines which in turn calls the graphics driver which (in this case) in turn calculates the T&L on the CPU and returns the results.

Most tests like this don't talk directly to the hardware, instead talking through the driver. All they know is that they asked the driver and the driver gave results back. Only the graphics driver knows whether it was really done in hardware or on the CPU. This layer of abstraction is needed to make the program run with all systems.

It is more than likely not done in the shaders as these need to be used for something else.
 

Sam0r

macrumors regular
Jun 15, 2005
199
0
Birmingham, UK
I agree that the GMA950 isn't exactly brilliant, but neither was the ATi Radeon 9200 that was in the PPC models.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1821813,00.asp

Thats a comparison between the GeForce 6200 and the GMA950. Yes, the GMA950 sucks in comparison, but the 9200 wasn't that much better either.

What I find funny though, is that before they went intel, the Mac Mini was touted as a 'Gaming Machine'. On the old Mac Mini's homepage, there were links to all sorts of games, and Apple did say that it was a great gaming machine.

Jesus christ, my iBook with its 9550M can't play Halo at a decent speed without the graphics having to be on minimal, so god knows how it played on the 9200 in the PPC Mac mini.

It seems they've gone one step forward with the new audio input (God help them if its a line-level input), and then one step back with the GMA950.

But, the specification on Intel's website states that its perfectly suited to playing HD video at the 16:9 ratio, so maybe it won't be all that bad.
 
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