Oh Dear, intel integrated graphics

[clayj]

I think that one of the MR community with an "old" mini (clayj?) should buy a new one and do a comparison test for us. That would answer our questions.

<sigh>

I just bought a SECOND mini, also PPC, but slightly faster (1.5 GHz vs. 1.42 Ghz) and with 64 MB of VRAM compared to the original's 32 MB of VRAM... otherwise, my two minis are identical. At first I was a little upset about buying a machine one week before it was replaced by a newer model, but now that I'm reading all of these posts, I think I made a good decision.

For what it's worth, the only things I do with my minis are web surfing, e-mail, iTunes, and DVD conversion for iPod... so video performance has never been an issue for me on either of them.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

If the integrated crap graphics were actually better then the 9200 dedicated GPU Apple would be beating its chests about it. The fact that they point to cpu intensive tasks and say see its faster should be cause enough for alarm. Integrated graphics is cheapo garbage graphics. Its that simple spinmasters.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I think that one of the MR community with an "old" mini (clayj?) should buy a new one and do a comparison test for us. That would answer our questions.

I also wanted to point out that, without bickering over the inferior graphics in the latest consumer Macs, it just wouldn't feel like a product announcement....

No kidding.

We'll see bench tests on these machines soon enough, then we'll know if Apple deliberately saddled the new mini with doggy graphics. Maybe people should use the meantime to get their knickers untwisted.

 

[Timepass]

well to me it just a case and point why I have zero respect for apple marketing deparment and I believe next to noughting that comes out of their mouths. To many times in a row I have seen them eat their own words. Go from bashing one thing and then turn around the next day and be saying how great it is and using it.

Apple marketing to me are a bunch of Hypocrites. And I think Hypocrites are the worse and I have no respect for them.

 

[Eidorian]

I work with GMA950 Integrated Video all day at work and it is bloody horrible. Firstly 3D support is pretty much dead, 2D is nearly as bad. You can actually see windows ripping and tearing as you move them. Also DVD playback is absolutely horrible using them.

But hey it's Apple so they must kick ass!

I've had window tearing using a Radeon 9600 and an X700. It's a WINDOWS thing not the video card. Integrated graphics from Intel has come a long way for supporting GUI features and media. They stick suck for 3D and I hate shard memory. The biggest issue is games. Integrated graphics takes years to catch up rather than paying for the video card now.

 

[macrants]

Exactly. If you wanna play games, buy an Xbox 360.

That's the problem... I did. And I'm happy as a clam streaming my iTunes and iPhoto perfectly to it. The Xbox 360 (not to mention my older, modded Xbox) has all the media center functionality that the new Mac Mini touts, for a lot less money. If I were looking for a way to get pictures and photos (and videos, soon) to my living room in glorious HD, I'm sticking with the Xbox.

And for other applications, the iMac makes more sense than the Mini, pricewise. I'd only get the Mini if I wasn't going to game, and I had an expensive monitor that I felt no need to replace. Otherwise, I'll stick with my MacBook/iMac/Xbox combination.

 

[jsw]

well to me it just a case and point why I have zero respect for apple marketing deparment and I believe next to noughting that comes out of their mouths. To many times in a row I have seen them eat their own words. Go from bashing one thing and then turn around the next day and be saying how great it is and using it.

Apple marketing to me are a bunch of Hypocrites. And I think Hypocrites are the worse and I have no respect for them.

So... name a marketing department that's any different, anywhere.

 

[witchdrash]

A lot of people really seem very down on integrated graphics, I think the reality of the mac mini has to be realised, and that's its not a primary machine for most normal users, you really want an imac for that, for someone like me, a staunch windows user wanting to try macs, someone who, at this point, will not play a single game on their mac, a side machine that lets me have the advantages of os x, while running a powerful windows machine at the same time it's a great product. For example I priced up 2 systems
Mac Mini:
1.66 Core Duo
1 Gig Ram
120 Gigs of HD space
Wireless KB and Mouse
Crappy integrated graphics
£829

IMac
1.86 Core Duo
1 Gig Ram
160 Gigs of HD space
Wireless KB and mouse
Reasonable seperate 3D card
£1039

The IMac is an extra £200, now for £200 you get a 17" monitor, 40 gigs of hd space, a seperate 3d card and a slightly faster cpu. Now as a main machine you'd be crazy to buy the mac mini, as a taster of apple or as a side/extra machine the mac mini is a great purchase. I don't need 3D graphics, I don't need a monitor, I don't need the extra harddrive space, I doubt the cpu speed difference will be so huge that it will be particularly noticable. Can I justify the extra £200 (and I really thought about it), no, not in the slightest, do I feel £829 for my purchase expensive, a little, but not as expensive as £1039 for a lot of extras I don't need. I think the message is clear, want a general purpose desktop, buy an imac, want a low end machine/extra machine, get a mac mini and it will fulfil that role with ease.

I'm happy with my purchase, and maybe I will regret not getting an imac a few months down the line, but I could equally regret getting a mac mini and that way I have wasted £200 less than getting an imac.

Ash

P.S for those saying the XBox 360 has good media centre facilities try one, they suck, seriously, I have one and I still hook up a full sized pc because it will only play microsoft specific files, and no one in their right mind touches those codecs. A modded XBox doesn't really count, why because it requires technical knowledge beyond the normal user, and without buying the remote control (I didn't) the interface is nothing short of frustrating.

 

[AlmostThere]

A lot of us though are just interested in having one computer do a little of everything. I'm no "gamer", but I do want to be able to play Civ IV, or run Safari and VLC at the same time while leaving iPhoto, Mail, Firefox, and iCal open.

I think that's very much the issue. I know plenty of people who would throw in things like Civ IV (if and when) or Sims 2 (awaiting patch) as "normal" computer use.

The Mac Mini is an "all round" entry level machine expecting a computer like that to meet run a few games, at a decent level of performance, is not unreasonable. Certainly more reasonable, IMHO, than expecting someone who wants that tiny bit extra to stump up double the price for an iMac. [edit : based on the solo model]

Of course, we'll wait and see how the bench marks turn out.

 

[macrants]

Went to the Wayback Machine, too funny! Apple's had to eat a lot of their words about "toasting pentiums" recently, but it's funny to see such recent criticism fly in their face.

 

[TBi]

Couldn't agree more. I suspected for a long time they would use integrated in their lower models but was flamed for suggesting it. They already put the price up, so why not just add an extra $20-30 and put a proper gfx card in there?

I priced up an Mac mini in another thread and it with the 20" screen and keyboard it works out more expensive than an imac 20" let alone a 17" imac, both of which are far more suited to gaming. If you want to game, DO NOT get an intel mini....

I also wished they had a better card. Even ATi integrated graphics beats the intel integrated one by a large margin. If i had something like a X1300 i'd have taken it.

For the price it would be better value for me to get a 17" iMac and connect it to my 20" dell. I'd be getting mouse + KB, second monitor (in the iMac), a webcam and a bigger faster hard drive. Plus it will be easier to upgrade the memory than trying to snap open a mini (i know because i did it on mine).

I could take the cheap model having integrated, but in the top end one with core duo? It's a waste of a good computer.

 

[TBi]

P.S for those saying the XBox 360 has good media centre facilities try one, they suck, seriously, I have one and I still hook up a full sized pc because it will only play microsoft specific files, and no one in their right mind touches those codecs. A modded XBox doesn't really count, why because it requires technical knowledge beyond the normal user, and without buying the remote control (I didn't) the interface is nothing short of frustrating.

The XBox 360 is not a patch on an original XBox with XBMC.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I think that's very much the issue. I know plenty of people who would throw in things like Civ IV (if and when) or Sims 2 (awaiting patch) as "normal" computer use.

The Mac Mini is an "all round" entry level machine expecting a computer like that to meet run a few games, at a decent level of performance, is not unreasonable. Certainly more reasonable, IMHO, than expecting someone who wants that tiny bit extra to stump up double the price for an iMac. [edit : based on the solo model]

Of course, we'll wait and see how the bench marks turn out.

In the Windows PC world, integrated graphics are standard in entry-level machines, as are crippled CPUs such as the Celeron. This is why I asked if any other PC manufacturer was selling a desktop PC with Core Duo processors. I think they aren't, at least not in this price-range.

 

[jer2eydevil88]

hahahahha why upgrade?

Honestly what was jobs thinking... the iPod boombox redefines lame and the new mini isn't exactly hype worthy... in fact i'm typing this from my mac mini (1.42ghz 80gb 7200rpm 1gig ddr2700) its running front row and I got a $15.00 wireless keyboard & mouse off newegg for it... so lets see upgrade to the intel version why? for two more usb ports, a sata drive, an extra ram slot, and most importantly a six button remote.... hah i'll keep the PPC model for at least another year... maybe then they will pop quad core chips in the mini's and it'll play 1920x1080 hidef like a beauty..

 

[risc]

In Windows, right?

Windows XP, 2003, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, SLES, FreeBSD - in all of these OSes the 950 is a joke, I expect it to be no different on OS X.

 

[mad jew]

If iBooks get integrated graphics too, then I might have to just get one of the last G4 versions.

 

[Clydefrog]

integrated graphics FTL......maybe they sacrificed the video card for an extra RAM slot?

 

[t^3]

integrated graphics FTL......maybe they sacrificed the video card for an extra RAM slot?

Maybe, but I hope it wasn't because they really wanted people to get dual channel RAM.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Went to the Wayback Machine, too funny! Apple's had to eat a lot of their words about "toasting pentiums" recently, but it's funny to see such recent criticism fly in their face.

Thanks for posting that. Seriously. Because w/o you I would have only seen that referenced 4 or 5 other times today (including the 2nd post in this thread).

I went over anandtech.com to see what people over there were saying about the new Mini. Of course the GPU came up but most of the responses where, "So what? I'm not gonna game on that I'm gonna game on my PC."

Granted, it's never nice to see a downgrade coupled w/a price hike, but Apple's #'s tell a story we don't know about? Maybe Apple's research shows people aren't "stressing" the Mini so a dedicated GPU was overkill.

It's interesting though to see Apple pushing a "secondary" computer (if you will). Sure, the Mini can work as a main machine for those on a budget, but I keep reading about so many people picking it up as an "add on" type computer. Not something to replace their main rig, but something to compliment it.


Lethal

 

[IJ Reilly]

Windows XP, 2003, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, SLES, FreeBSD - in all of these OSes the 950 is a joke, I expect it to be no different on OS X.

Hmm, I ran a RagePro 128 for years. It was a slowpoke, but I never saw a window tear when I moved it.

 

[risc]

Hmm, I ran a RagePro 128 for years. It was a slowpoke, but I never saw a window tear when I moved it.

The Intel range of integrated video are just really bad. I've worked with all of them (the 9xx range) and while the 950 is faster than the others it is still horrible, but even if you can get over the slow 2D what is really horrible is how ugly DVDs look playing through them. IMHO Apple should of gone with an ATI integrated solution if they needed integrated. Oh well you'll all see what I mean when you finally get to play with one.

 

[jsw]

Not something to replace their main rig, but something to compliment it.

Excellent idea! I'll set one up next to my PM. "Lookin' good, Mr. G5!" it'll say.

J/K. I saw it and the thought came to my head.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Excellent idea! I'll set one up next to my PM. "Lookin' good, Mr. G5!" it'll say.

J/K. I saw it and the thought came to my head.

Argh! Betrayed by spellcheck again...


Lethal

 

[danny_w]

Unfortunately my predictions from last summer are starting to come true. I just switched to Mac about this time last year when the original mini came out because I was tired of the Intel and Windows worlds, and was ready for something different. When I became sufficiently hooked, Steve announced that Apple was changing to Intel, and I cringed. Apple teaming with a company with one of the worst corporate images in the world? I never saw that one coming (I might have if I had been following Apple more closely, I don't know). Intel to me stands for shoddy designs, missed releases, expensive chips (the core duo in iMacs supposedly costs 2-3 times what a G5 costs), and integrated graphics. I predicted back than that Apple would become nothing but another PC hardware company, and it looks like they are well on their way. At least we still have OS X, but how long will that last? At least I have all of the Macs I will probably need for a while now (a 1.42 mini and an iMac G5), but what I will do when it is time to upgrade is anybody's guess. I may just go back to Windows (at least the hardware is cheaper, and now it is the same but cheaper). Oh well...

 

[rdowns]

integrated graphics FTL......maybe they sacrificed the video card for an extra RAM slot?

And they nicely put 2 x 256MB sticks in it, bastards!