For Linux VMs I just use Ubuntu's Multipass and Docker images. If I needed a specific distro for testing, I would probably just use Virtual Box. I don't Windows on my Mac but if I did I would want WSL2 and Docker so I would rather just use Bootcamp (games is the other possible use case for Window for me).
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On the topic of VMware Fusion for ARM
- Thread starter Yebubbleman
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For Linux VMs I just use Ubuntu's Multipass and Docker images. If I needed a specific distro for testing, I would probably just use Virtual Box. I don't Windows on my Mac but if I did I would want WSL2 and Docker so I would rather just use Bootcamp (games is the other possible use case for Window for me).
News for the data center that may have a future impact on Fusion as a product: https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/24/vmworld_preview_esxi_on_arm/
Well, Fusion will probably exist for Mac on ARM. The big questions are whether it'll also run Windows, and if so, whether that includes the x86-32 emulator (and if so, at what performance level).
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My solution to this is to install VMware's Vsphere on a headless server-class Xeon box. Then on that, I run instances of Intel Linux and Windows and export the display to My Mac. If I switch to an ARM-based Mac it will not matter. Vsphere is free from VMware.
Performance is very good even with a 3-year-old used a 16-core Xeon system that just came off-lease.
Performance is very good even with a 3-year-old used a 16-core Xeon system that just came off-lease.
Let us revisit the role of Windows for ARM in the Mac VM eco-system. VMWare Fusion will have a ARM version available when the first ARM Macs ship in early January. When you ask the 'why?' to this then consider how aggressive Micro-Soft are being with their making the OS and apps native. I took a look at running Windows for ARM on a Raspberry Pi over the last few days and what's were talking is a bona fide full Windows 10 experience for the consumer. It was a little slow as the Pi runs from an SD card but it was more than usable with 3GB of memory available. The important tools for a developer are all already ARM native.
Specifically, Microsoft Edge (Chrome builds) is now native and is pretty smooth. Windows Terminal also runs nice and functional, as was the Solitaire Collection. Interestingly, Windows for ARM now supports Hyper-V and WSL. Yes, you can run WSL/2 on top on ARM Windows. The question is whether it'll support nested virtualization for WSL2. I am thinking not given the limitations of the current Intel HV Framework hooks, but you never know. I wasn't able to get WSL installed as my SD Card died.
It's almost certain that Windows for ARM will be running on VMWare Fusion for ARM within days of the release of the first ARM Macs. The question is whether there'll be native drivers in the VMWare tools to support it or if it'll be ad-hoc by hackers initially. But I'd expect VMware Tools to eventually show up. During that wait it should be feasible to use Windows without based on my Raspberry Pi experience.
Specifically, Microsoft Edge (Chrome builds) is now native and is pretty smooth. Windows Terminal also runs nice and functional, as was the Solitaire Collection. Interestingly, Windows for ARM now supports Hyper-V and WSL. Yes, you can run WSL/2 on top on ARM Windows. The question is whether it'll support nested virtualization for WSL2. I am thinking not given the limitations of the current Intel HV Framework hooks, but you never know. I wasn't able to get WSL installed as my SD Card died.
It's almost certain that Windows for ARM will be running on VMWare Fusion for ARM within days of the release of the first ARM Macs. The question is whether there'll be native drivers in the VMWare tools to support it or if it'll be ad-hoc by hackers initially. But I'd expect VMware Tools to eventually show up. During that wait it should be feasible to use Windows without based on my Raspberry Pi experience.
Building your own install image with unauthorised third-party tools or torrenting one illegally and running all that unsupported is anything but that IMO.
Given the progress seen so far, I am sure some Windows 10 will run on ARM Macs in Virtualization in the not too distant future. But whether that will be von VMware and when... we'll see.
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What makes you so sure? I think that original Twitter post would imply that they're not even sure if there's a point to it.
Also, Microsoft needs to ease up on its licensing restrictions for Windows 10 for ARM64 as right now, you're only allowed to install it on an OEM device that comes with it preloaded. The IoT versions of Windows 10 that run on Raspberry Pi units is not a realistic comparison. I'm not saying that Windows 10 for ARM64 isn't a realistic thing to be virtualized. Just that Microsoft needs to make licensing changes and that Apple and Parallels (give or take VMware as well) need to start collaborating on bringing it to Apple Silicon. It's not going to happen on its own.
Do you know if Windows on ARM uses 32-bit instructions? I’m fairly certain any CPU from Apple will not support any 32-bit instructions. Raspberry Pi obviously does support AArch32. But this could be a huge blocker.
Apple's ARM CPUs support 32 bit instructions. The ARM standard mandates it. Apple can't sell them as ARM CPUs if they don't.
The operating system won't run 32 bit apps but that's outside the scope of their agreement with ARM and the standard.
I played about with that. It tells you it can run x64 apps when you try. I tried 32-bit versions of Notepad++ and Rufus. They appeared pretty snappy from my brief tests. Specifically, it was like using Rosetta for PowerPC apps but the Windows info gives you lots of knobs to tweak for speed and accuracy of emulation.
Easy choice... we don't think.. we just do.
Probably.. No Mac user ever runs ESXi like i do? There was a reason why Apple introduced Boot-camp, it wouldn't have done it necessarily just because you had Intel Mac's so "Why not" ... WHy would that have changed now as "VMWare wouldn't' be worth it" ?
Is an architectural change that more likely prompt 'developers' like VMWare, its a 'too difficult move to make, so we won't do it '.. Not that Apple doesn't want them to. I'm sure they would like see more go over and develop, but i doubt it will be a big splash as PowerPC-to-Intel was.
Manly because there are many more Intel apps ou there than there ever were PowerPC ones for #1, and the oher is people got used to what they like.
Probably.. No Mac user ever runs ESXi like i do? There was a reason why Apple introduced Boot-camp, it wouldn't have done it necessarily just because you had Intel Mac's so "Why not" ... WHy would that have changed now as "VMWare wouldn't' be worth it" ?
Is an architectural change that more likely prompt 'developers' like VMWare, its a 'too difficult move to make, so we won't do it '.. Not that Apple doesn't want them to. I'm sure they would like see more go over and develop, but i doubt it will be a big splash as PowerPC-to-Intel was.
Manly because there are many more Intel apps ou there than there ever were PowerPC ones for #1, and the oher is people got used to what they like.
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I’m not talking about emulation. I mean Windows on ARM native code. Does it use 32-bit instructions? If it does, that is a serious roadblock since it is unlikely that Apple Silicon will include 32-bit instructions in the ISA.
Do you have a citation for that? I’ve seen speculation here and elsewhere that 32-bit is missing from Apple’s 64-bit CPUs. I honestly don’t know and I can’t find anything definitive either way. I do see on the Wiki page for AArch64 that 32-bit “can” run in a 64-bit hypervisor which is new to me and interesting.
Having just received our copies of Fusion 12 Pro at work, i'm inclined to assume that Apple Silicon is being flat out ignored, as it explicitly stipulates Intel Based Macs only.
Apple Silicon is going to most likely require that the VM software use Apple’s hypervisor framework. In the past, Parallels has had an option to do this but not Fusion. Do you know if Fusion 12 supports using the built-in hypervisor as opposed to installing a bunch of kernel extensions? If it isn’t an option, I’m going to agree with you.
Looking at it, it appears to be using the Apple API instead of the kernel extensions, so maybe there is some hope after all.
Edit: Also, maximum supported vCPU is 32 threads in the control panel, there is nothing in existence currently that can do that, so that also implies Apple Silicon somewhere (also, 32 threads, please god).
Edit #2: come to think of it, 2019 Mac Pro 28 core can do 56 threads, so maybe i'm overthinking that ?
In Big Sur, Fusion 12 uses Apple's Hypervisor framework. In Catalina, it does not.
This is probably good news. It says that it is less likely that VMWare is going to abandon the Mac. I doubt they would do the work to update their software if they thought Intel Macs were the end of the line.
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Precisely. Point in case, below a screen shot running Halflife 2 on the Surface Pro X 2880x1920 (5.5Mio Pixel) 4xAA 16xAF all settings max - at around 40 fps under x86 emulation - certainly faster than what was possible back in the days
A good case of being GPU limited on top, since this runs faster on Surface Pro X compared to Surface Pro 6.
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Just to book-end this thread; VMware has announced that there will be a version of Fusion for Apple Silicon. Presumably this is limited to virtualizing other ARM64 OSes and environments. And presumably, this is also leveraging Apple's Hypervisor framework. Very excited to see what comes of this! Official tweet from VMware linked below: