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Currently with 12 cores at 3.2GHz scenes with those attributes implemented can take anywhere from 1min to several hours for an interactive render to show nicely - yet alone complete. So, what is it a good doctor will tell you?: If doing that causes you a problem... then don't do that. :)
...
Just think, how many 3GHz cores it would take to get a 1min (12 core) interactive render down under 5sec. I count 144 cores at 3GHz to get there. And 72 cores at 3GHz will get you there in 10sec. We're really not there yet.

I think you have some hints of a good point here (which relates to not trying to tread the middle ground between good-enough workstation and cluster), but why in the world is the right bench mark increasing speeds by 12x (60s to 5s)? For most of us ~2x the speed is pretty damn significant, especially when performance vs. dollar is still roughly linear, thus DP systems are highly desirable. 12x is just balls crazy without $$$,$$$.

Even on some of the best clusters in the world with 1000s of cores, you aren't going to get 12x the speed improvement for all kinds of reasons. It could be that software can't scale past some arbitrary number of cores even on SMP machines, software doesn't distribute to multiple nodes, hardware induced latencies from using 10-100s of nodes, queue times for jobs using 100s of cores, up/down load times.
 
I think you have some hints of a good point here (which relates to not trying to tread the middle ground between good-enough workstation and cluster), but why in the world is the right bench mark increasing speeds by 12x (60s to 5s)? For most of us ~2x the speed is pretty damn significant, especially when performance vs. dollar is still roughly linear, thus DP systems are highly desirable. 12x is just balls crazy without $$$,$$$.

Is it really 2x speed increase though? Real world use is quite different from a synthetic benchmark that is specifically made to just make the CPU do dumb work an all cylinders.

Even on some of the best clusters in the world with 1000s of cores, you aren't going to get 12x the speed improvement for all kinds of reasons. It could be that software can't scale past some arbitrary number of cores even on SMP machines, software doesn't distribute to multiple nodes, hardware induced latencies from using 10-100s of nodes, queue times for jobs using 100s of cores, up/down load times.

You will get much more than 12x improvement, no one would make a 1000 node cluster if that wasn't the case. If the problem you are trying to solve can not scale past some low amount of cores then a cluster is probably not the right solution.
 
I forgot to answer.

Yes.

It is the epitome of a modern workstation. We don't live in the era of punch cards and vacuum tubes that some might equate to workstations anymore.

Lets face it, The Mac Pro is sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. It is totally awesome and that's a fact. The Mac Pro is fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to start yoga next year. I love the Mac Pro with all of my body (including my pee pee).
 
To me the definition of a workstation is a system with a server class CPU (one at minimum although nowadays core count may make up for it), ECC memory, fast AND reliable HDDs and some sort of redundancy capabilities (power supply, RAID etc).

Having said that I don't get how some OEMs label laptops as workstation class systems (i.e.: the W500 series from Lenovo - I had one, yes it's faster than the T500 series but I wouldn't say the difference was mind blowing and it definitely didn't handle everything thrown at it)
 
Lets face it, The Mac Pro is sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. It is totally awesome and that's a fact. The Mac Pro is fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to start yoga next year. I love the Mac Pro with all of my body (including my pee pee).

+ 10 points for Robert's ninja page
 
Is it really 2x speed increase though? Real world use is quite different from a synthetic benchmark that is specifically made to just make the CPU do dumb work an all cylinders.

Well, it does depend, but its close to 2x, that's why I put the "~" there. For example, if I bought a workstation with the 1x1660 vs 2x2630s even synthetic benchmarks aren't going to be 2x the speed because 1x2630 < 1x1660 in performance. So, yeah it can be more like 1.5x-2+x, it just depends on your work flow and how much extra you pay to get the higher ranged 26xx processors.


You will get much more than 12x improvement, no one would make a 1000 node cluster if that wasn't the case. If the problem you are trying to solve can not scale past some low amount of cores then a cluster is probably not the right solution.

I think you're mistakenly assuming that the users are building the cluster for their own uses. For most of us, we sign up and pay for a cluster that already has thousands of users. Or you work in large corporations that might have a cluster, but its also highly used by other employees. Clusters are rarely built so that some small set of users get huge (>12x) performance boost. Rather, they are built to provide moderate performance boosts to large numbers of users. Occasionally, yes, I have to run jobs that are embarrassingly parallel, and I can submit 1000s of jobs (if the torque manager even allows it!), but that's a relative rarity to when I just need 16, 32 maybe 64 cores.

Also, queue times, and possible up/download times, are the main problem. You can't just walk up and get those 1000 cores right away like you can with your 12 core DP workstation. Usually, you run into long queue lines or torque manager limitations when submitting huge jobs with >100 node needs.

And even well designed code hits diminishing returns with very large core counts. Usually the issue is the latency in getting jobs to and from so many nodes and the organizer node(s) I/O gets saturated. At what point that happens depends on your jobs. I've seen some hit it around 20, some 50, some 500. But to see a 12x increase in speed over my 12 core computer, you need 144 distributed cores working as efficiently as my SMP workstation. That is very unlikely. So maybe to see that, I'd need 200, even 300 cores. But, in my experience, queue times even on relatively lightly used clusters for jobs using that many cores are often in the several days to weeks range. Even if the job on my computer would take 2 months, and once started on a cluster only 3 days, if it takes a week just to start, you're only getting about a 6 fold increase in speed.

Maybe your field is different, but in mine very few things scale well past around 100 cores. Many jobs could use 1000s, but they need shared memory, not distributed, and no coding tricks are going to be able to change that fact.
 
A pro work station is whatever you use your machine for and anything that isn't what you do is a pc. I learned that from the ridiculous number of threads we have on the 2013 Mac Pro.
 
IMO the main thing that distinguishes a workstation for me is the quality (or class) of the components. It's pretty much a workstation if it's equipped like a server, but isn't a server. At least with that kind of simplified outlook I think the new Pro remains a workstation.

The other main criteria for a workstation IMO is accessibility/upgradeability. We can see from Apple's preview that the internals of the new Pro are very accessible, but the question of upgrades has yet to be answered. The GPUs are clearly on custom boards, which unfortunately means we're at Apple's mercy in terms of updates. My hope is that the boards still use a PCIe connector, so the possibility of just removing one and swapping for another may well exist, but we don't know if that's the case. Relying on Apple to update the GPU lineup for new and older mini Mac Pros isn't necessarily a huge difference to what we have in the current Mac Pros though, as very few companies seem interested in writing drivers for OS X, so while we can use any card we want under Windows the same is not true for OS X. So if you consider the current GPU upgrade options for a Mac Pro to be workstation grade then I'm not sure the new Pro will be much different. The main issue is the possible lack of options, as we may only be able to configure the VRAM we get.

RAM and the internal Flash are certainly upgradeable though, and considering they're really the only other upgrade components in the machine that's not such a bad thing. The problems there though are the limited number of RAM slots, and the connector for the Flash storage, which again may restrict us to Apple upgrades for Flash storage, unless OWC releases one.


So yeah… the new Pro has accessibility for components, but a pretty significant question mark over actual upgrades. While as a device it wouldn't be hard to swap the new Pro for the next model up when that comes, from a cost perspective it'd be an insane thing to do so I don't think it counts.

It does have ample external connectivity though, which represents a fairly large path for upgrades in terms of storage capacity and capabilities. You may even be able to connect some kind of dedicated CUDA/OpenCL device, though I shudder to think what that kind of upgrade would cost for the boost you'd receive.


One other thing to consider for workstations is support; for a non-Apple workstation I wouldn't buy one that doesn't have a good support plan, ideally five years or longer. There have been rumours of a change in the structure of Applecare, so if you can get a subscription for the new Pro then it could give us a more enterprise level support option if that coverage can last for longer than three years. If Apple are confident enough of the build quality of the new Pros then there should be no reason they can't offer this.
 
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Interesting link. Thanks for that.
Observation #1. 3DS classifies anything down to a Core2Duo laptop that's capable of accepting 8GB of RAM as a workstation. Not even ECC RAM.
(The rest of this post is just stuff I found out on Dell's website and not really related to the "Workstation or not" discussion. Apologies if everyone else has already seen this sort of stuff.)

Observation #2. Dell charges a lot for RAM. For the new Dell Precision M6700, up-speccing to 32GB of RAM will cost a packet: 32GB (4X8GB) 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM [add $1,542.20 or $16/week]

Observation #3. Dell charges a lot for SSDs. The M6700 comes with a 500 GB hard drive. Swapping that for a 512GB Full Minicard Mobility Solid State Drive for Single Drive Configuration [add $2,175.80 or $23/week]

Observation #4. BluRay burners are expensive. 2X Blu-ray (BD-RE) Drive with CyberLink PowerDVD(TM) 9.5 for Blu-ray [add $627.00 or $6/week]

Observation #5. Getting a decent screen costs you extra. The M6700 comes standard with a 17.3" screen, at a res of 1600 x 900. (Those dots must be the size of pingpong balls.) To get 17.3" UltraSharp™ FHD(1920x1080) WideView AG LED-backlit Multi-Touch with Premium Panel Guarantee [add $948.20 or $10/week]

You can go from 1600 x 900 to 1920 x 1080 for only $25 though, but my question would be if it's only $25, why not make 1920 x 1080 the base model, unless it's a really crappy screen and you have to spend much more to get something half decent.

Without much effort, I created a A$13 000 laptop :D
I reckon Dell would sell around zero of these.
 
I think you have some hints of a good point here (which relates to not trying to tread the middle ground between good-enough workstation and cluster), but why in the world is the right bench mark increasing speeds by 12x (60s to 5s)? For most of us ~2x the speed is pretty damn significant, especially when performance vs. dollar is still roughly linear, thus DP systems are highly desirable. 12x is just balls crazy without $$$,$$$.

My math was based on linear multiples. If a 12-core takes 1min to render a frame then a 24-core would take 30s and a 48-core would do it in 15s and so on. By the time we get a 1min. frame down to 5s we're at 144 cores. The point was that since we're not there yet (concerning real-time preview renders) only another 12 cores (in the case of a dual socket design) isn't going to help enough to make a difference in almost any cases anyway.

For interactive preview renders to be useful they need to be interactive. Interactive is usually where you can see fairly good detail in less than 10s and hopefully less than 5s. The trouble is that previews seem to come in only two flavors: Way way too long, and just right. :) The former are usually requiring 3 to 5min and sometimes upward of 15 or 20min. In such cases just adding another 12-core CPU doesn't do enough of anything. At that point it becomes far better to follow the very well established studio tested and proven workflow of sending the test-frame to another machine or machines while you continue working forward. It's a well proven workflow when interactive previews are too slow to be... well, interactive. :)



I've been thrown out of much finer establishments than yours.....

:D

Yeah, but only after how many drinks? :) Besides, I would never throw out my favorite Dr. Stealth as a customer - I just don't promote the idea of giving free drinks and calling it spillage! :)



after watching the replay of this thread, i realize i've been dreaming about gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time..

http://www.viddler.com/v/c8809791

2 cpu sockets is clearly the right number- duh

Hehe, nice non-personal sarcasm dude... love it. :)
 
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My math was based on linear multiples. If a 12-core takes 1min to render a frame then a 24-core would take 30s and a 48-core would do it in 15s and so on. By the time we get a 1min. frame down to 5s we're at 144 cores. The point was that since we're not there yet (concerning real-time preview renders) only another 12 cores (in the case of a dual socket design) isn't going to help enough to make a difference in almost any cases anyway.

A reasonable approach, although there's also the human element, and Human Subject Research studies on UI have found that response time delays become nonlinear.

To illustrate with notional numbers, say we have a hardware process with a 5 second delay, and the human operator to then takes 1 second to provide the next input, resulting in an overall workflow process that takes 5+1=6 seconds. We now increase the delay to 10 seconds. If it was a purely linear response, we would expect it to now take either be 11 seconds (10+1) or 12 seconds ( 2*(5+1)). However, because of the longer dwell, the attentiveness of the human operator is adversely affected and it takes them now 4 seconds instead of 1 to provide the next input and the overall workflow takes 10+4=14 seconds...a nonlinear outcome.

The general implications of this are that when delay times are made shorter, the same human UI penomina is present and there are dwell time ranges where the gains are similarly non-linear with the man-in-the-loop accounted for.


-hh
 
I'd call it a "Workstation that's dependent on external infrastructure".

Or maybe a Super-Fat Client.
 
I'd call it a "Workstation that's dependent on external infrastructure".

Or maybe a Super-Fat Client.

Pretty much. I guess it's like a motorcycle.
Small, compact and faster than regular cars, but it comes without a trunk, cup holder, roof, etc. and if you want to do more, you need to start adding things like a cargo trailer to get the same functionality a car would provide.
Which would be fine if it was a Mac Mini, but for a "Pro" machine, it should come with the standard features.
 
Pretty much. I guess it's like a motorcycle.
Small, compact and faster than regular cars, but it comes without a trunk, cup holder, roof, etc. and if you want to do more, you need to start adding things like a cargo trailer to get the same functionality a car would provide.
Which would be fine if it was a Mac Mini, but for a "Pro" machine, it should come with the standard features.

not really feeling the car vs motorcycle analogy..

more like car vs van.. everything is fundamentally the same except the new mac has less cargo space..
 
not really feeling the car vs motorcycle analogy..

more like car vs van.. everything is fundamentally the same except the new mac has less cargo space..

No, the motorbike is perfect.

Both a car and a van have INTERNAL cargo space and option capability. The motorbike, like the nMP doesn't, by design, have any INTERNAL capability.
 
not really feeling the car vs motorcycle analogy..

more like car vs van.. everything is fundamentally the same except the new mac has less cargo space..

More like van vs truck. A van can carry a large amount of stuff inside, a truck can't. But hook up a trailer or two, and a truck's carrying capacity blows the van away.
 
More like van vs truck. A van can carry a large amount of stuff inside, a truck can't. But hook up a trailer or two, and a truck's carrying capacity blows the van away.

But the truck is more difficult to parallel park :D
 
More like van vs truck. A van can carry a large amount of stuff inside, a truck can't. But hook up a trailer or two, and a truck's carrying capacity blows the van away.

But this van also has a hitch and can hook up those same trailers.
 
No, the motorbike is perfect.

Both a car and a van have INTERNAL cargo space and option capability. The motorbike, like the nMP doesn't, by design, have any INTERNAL capability.

yeah it does.. it still has a drive in there.. (an apparently awesome one at that)..

it's not as if they removed storage completely.. just all that extra storage.
 
yeah it does.. it still has a drive in there.. (an apparently awesome one at that)..

it's not as if they removed storage completely.. just all that extra storage.

Well, there's usually a small storage space under the seat on a motorbike... Does that count has the ssd blade :D
 
and just for clarity-
lot's of people are arguing they want an enclosure for their drives while at the same time arguing they don't want an enclosure..

but either way- you still want an enclosure.. and it's still gonna to cost (possibly equal) you money to have the drive enclosures.

is this agreeable?
 
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