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Do you have a point to either one of those responses?

The current MP has 2 sockets, new one is reduced to a single.

Is that being argued still?

No it's not being argued, I started by saying that, yes the new model have 1 CPU. I asked why you arbitrarily stopped at 2 CPUs and not 20.

Also, you link to RAM that is exactly as he says, $1000 per stick.

And aside form that, it is RAM specced for 2012 MP, not the 2013.

So if that actually works in 2012, then 2012 will hold TWICE (2 X) the RAM of it's shiny replacement.

As with many previous posts, you have proven nothing. (Thanks again for the easy one where you espoused virtues of TB HD vs USB vs SATA, made you look rather silly)

Incorrect links and bad comparisons don't work.

Take a debate class, please.

You only use price as an argument when it helps your case, you never mention the price for 2 12 core CPUs for example...

I just Googled 32GB dimm, to prove that there are 32GB packages. And note that I never sink to call you silly, you see that doesn't add anything to my case it's called an ad hominem argument, if you claim that 1 + 1 = 3 then I would prove you wrong not call you silly, because doing so would not show why 1 + 1 ≠ 3. It seems you are in bigger need of a debate class, to be honest.
 
Ivy Bridge EP Xeon have 80 lane, the EX have 144 lane...

... and the nMP will have 40 lane, as it is LGA2011. What is your point.

I remember my point: there are i7's with 40 lanes that can run on motherboards which support ECC.

I still have yet to see my questions answered. Does merely having a mobo that supports ECC make it a workstation? Do workstations HAVE to have either opteron or Xeon?

I vote no. Therefore just because the nMP is a Xeon and has ECC doesn't make it a "workstation" automatically.

"Workstation" is a nebulous term where there's no clear line drawn between it and a "PC." One generation's Workstation, is in fact often the next generations PC.
 
No it's not being argued, I started by saying that, yes the new model have 1 CPU. I asked why you arbitrarily stopped at 2 CPUs and not 20.



You only use price as an argument when it helps your case, you never mention the price for 2 12 core CPUs for example...

I just Googled 32GB dimm, to prove that there are 32GB packages. And note that I never sink to call you silly, you see that doesn't add anything to my case it's called an ad hominem argument, if you claim that 1 + 1 = 3 then I would prove you wrong not call you silly, because doing so would not show why 1 + 1 ≠ 3. It seems you are in bigger need of a debate class, to be honest.

You have completely 100% failed to make a point. Again.

The RAM isn't for the 2013, so not sure what finding RAM for a different machine proves. And he was right, it cost $4K.

But you are right about 2 @ 12 cores costing more than one. Nice start.
 
You have completely 100% failed to make a point. Again.

The RAM isn't for the 2013, so not sure what finding RAM for a different machine proves. And he was right, it cost $4K.

I never argued about the price did I? But it is indeed possible to make 32GB modules, Ivy Bridge EP does not exist and indeed the new Mac Pro does not exist.

But you are right about 2 @ 12 cores costing more than one. Nice start.

Yep and that is not something you are going to mention of course. You still haven't answered why you think 2 CPUs is sufficient, why draw the line at 2? If you think 1 is insufficient, then it seems 2 would also be, and certainly compared to 20, no?
 
You still haven't answered why you think 2 CPUs is sufficient, why draw the line at 2?

ahh.. the unanswerable question

i think the answer i'd be most likely to accept (other than the real answ∞r) is.. "because nature tells us so.. we have 2 lungs and 2 ears and 2 kidneys and 2 eyes.. so see-- 2 is the right number" #
:smiley:
 
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Yep and that is not something you are going to mention of course. You still haven't answered why you think 2 CPUs is sufficient, why draw the line at 2? If you think 1 is insufficient, then it seems 2 would also be, and certainly compared to 20, no?

He doesn't have any rational points at all, he's just trying to keep you going in circles. But i just thought I would add that there are indeed 4-way and 8-way motherboards available so I at least, see your point.

IMO it doesn't matter much if it's a single or dual socket system. I guess it would be nice if they offered a dual - but who's to say they won't? The specs are not finalized - or if they are we have not been shown them. Just a preliminary "sneak preview" some 6 months in advance is all we have at this point. And what they did show us had 12 cores which IMHO is plenty for a first offering in the new form-factor. Intel is all about increasing core-count per chip so I'm sure we will eventually see more than 12 per chip. Also I reckon if we need more CPU cores in the same system for some reason we can just connect one of the many many PCIe Single Board Computers (SBC) on a TB2 port and go. The MIC based Intel Xeon Phi looks like fun!
 
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IMO it doesn't matter much if it's a single or dual socket system. I guess it would be nice if they offered a dual - but who's to say they won't?

i'm definitely not saying they won't but i'll theorize they won't..

they messed around with dual socket computers long enough to know way more about them then everybody on this site combined. apple engineers are not idiots as people like to claim.

it seems to me they're saying loud and clear that they believe they've made a mistake with offering the dual sockets.. or more likely-- that the 2+ sockets were a stop gap and have run their course already for PC use.

the cpus have moved outside of the pc.. apple didn't decide this.. they're not forcing some bs on you.. the pros decided it.. the mp designers only had to look at what the most demanding users were doing regarding cpu and admitting they will never in a million years (you know, about 15-20 in computer terms ;) be able to give them what they need inside a desktop computer..
--------------------
sensationalizing-> apple would be embarrassed to walk into dreamworks talking about "hey, check out our new mac pro.. it's got dual sockets and everything! we ignored the fact that the vast majority of our pro market really only needs around 4core and added all this cpu power just for you.. our real pros !!!! wheeeeeeee~~"

(and in case you don't get the point-- the point is that dreamworks needs a helluva lot more than a modern day 2socket computer)
 
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i'm definitely not saying they won't but i'll theorize they won't..

they messed around with dual socket computers long enough to know way more about them then everybody on this site combined. apple engineers are not idiots as people like to claim.

it seems to me they're saying loud and clear that they believe they've made a mistake with offering the dual sockets.. or more likely-- that the 2+ sockets were a stop gap and have run their course already for PC use.

the cpus have moved outside of the pc.. apple didn't decide this.. they're not forcing some bs on you.. the pros decided it.. the mp designers only had to look at what the most demanding users were doing regarding cpu and admitting they will never in a million years (you know, about 15-20 in computer terms ;) be able to give them what they need inside a desktop computer..
--------------------
sensationalizing-> apple would be embarrassed to walk into dreamworks talking about "hey, check out our new mac pro.. it's got dual sockets and everything! we ignored the fact that the vast majority of our pro market really only needs around 4core and added all this cpu power just for you.. our real pros !!!! wheeeeeeee~~"

(and in case you don't get the point-- the point is that dreamworks needs a helluva lot more than a modern day 2socket computer)

I tend to agree on all points. I think it's interesting that Apple says 6 devices can be added to each or the 6 TB2 ports. If I were a multimillionaire I would just love to mess about and see how many SBCs or Phi cards I could attach before the TB2 lanes were fully saturated. I have a hunch it's less than 36 but more than 12. The initial Phi cards were already about 15 to 20 times faster than an E5 2600 dual system at it's highest clocks. I could see having just a whole bunch fun with like 18 of those cards connected up to the MP6,1. With just 10 of them that would already be a something like a 200 times speed-up. :)

Hehe, but I guess some here lack the vision to understand this as being "expansion". :p
 
You still haven't answered why you think 2 CPUs is sufficient, why draw the line at 2? If you think 1 is insufficient, then it seems 2 would also be, and certainly compared to 20, no?


I'm sorry, I thought you were just playing dumb, I had no idea you wanted a serious answer to this question.

Let's start by pointing out that 2 > 1. Would I rather have 1 Ferrari or 2 @ Ferraris? I'll take 2 every time.

(The Professor can probably explain this better than I) (If he isn't busy lecturing Gilligan on Rocket Science)

Next, let's look to history. Sometime around 10 years ago Apple started offering Dual CPU G4 PowerMacs. Since then we have increased Cores or Ghz with nearly every iteration of the "Pro" line. This new iCan will mark first time that neither has increased and in fact we have retreated BACKWARDS to offering just a single CPU.

It is a cheaper machine, with fewer options.

One of the coolest things about a 3,1 Mac Pro is that you can take a single CPU model, buy a couple parts and have a Dual CPU model. Simple & Cheap upgrade. This was even possible with G4s.

Would I like 4 or 8? Sure, but let's be realistic, that would cost too much money. I would settle for the same old Dual CPU option that has been around for more than a decade.

Do I think it would be awesome if Apple took computers so seriously that they decided to compete at every level and even offered 20 CPU mega server/scientific machines? Absolutely. It would really help cement the brand as being top notch, top to bottom.

While they used to try to be taken seriously as a computer company, they are clearly making this less and less of a priority. So much so that this new iCan seems like an afterthought or an attempt to cloak a VERY de-contented STRIPPER machine and claim it came this way as a "design."

I realize that the Overlords in Cupertino expect the Kool Aid Squad to keep a nice spin on this. They want it to come out looking like a wedding cake fit for a Princess. But let's be honest, they have given you guys a cracked and crumbly turd and a tub of old Buttercream and are expecting miracles.

You can only spread that stuff so thick before it starts peeling back up.

By cutting back on CPU cores they have cut in HALF the quantity of RAM slots. Pointing out that you can just "buy some 32GB sticks" to make up for this is like the producer who read my script and said "Go get yourself some financing and I'll produce it for you".

Telling people that buying $4K of RAM to make up for Apple's corner cutting is an "answer" or "solution" is disingenuous and really shows where the Buttercream isn't covering up the deep cracks.

I have 4 Mac Pros here. I like that I can use old RAM sticks of low density and still end up with a decent quantity of total RAM since I have 8 slots per machine. The MBPs I only buy the MAX size for since I have so few slots.

Does the iCan sound like a fun machine that will be interesting? Yes, it does. Does it sound like a worthy replacement or extension of the line? Not in the least. Had it been called the Super Mini or Mac Pro Jr., who could complain?

But it certainly opens up some unique opportunities. Imagine if you were super clever to the point that you could write an EFI file for a PC motherboard. (they are EFI now, BTW) And you could allow said machine to simply boot into Mac EFI and neither the machine or the OS would see itself as anything other than a Mac Pro. Talk about the ultimate Hackintosh. One that "just worked" without frequent patches and fixes.

But to answer your question, yes, I think 2 is enough, but 4 would be awesome. And I apologize again for not recognizing that you were asking a serious question.
 
I tend to agree on all points. I think it's interesting that Apple says 6 devices can be added to each or the 6 TB2 ports. If I were a multimillionaire I would just love to mess about and see how many SBCs or Phi cards I could attach before the TB2 lanes were fully saturated.
(first things first-> i know next to nothing about supercomputing.. the most i've ever done is a mp with two mbp nodes.)

you might need to make some more money because it would be a long long time till you saturate thunderbolt.. (but there might be some sort of OS limit on how many other computers you can tie into?).. the computers have to work very hard to produce a small amount of useable data.. as in, every 60 seconds or so, they might send over 200k worth of info.. so there's not that much data which needs to transfer.. you just want the cpu..

(note- that's talking about rendering stills in particular.. i have no idea whether or not people can hook two computers in a way where the computer views itself as one.. in which much much more info would need to cross the cable)
 
basically works like so with rendering:

cpu.jpg


so it's not as if the computer as the whole is looking at the image and combining all of it's cpu power into one (which would be about the most awesome thing out there if someone could figure out how to do that ;) )

more like, it divides the image into smaller chunks and lets each processor go to town on it's own little section..
 
I don't think I would skate that.

Only partially because I can't/don't skate.

Unless it's some kind of awesome huge artificial gravity outer space skate park???

ha.. more of a sculpture/pavilion type of deal whose design was driven by the physics(for lack of better word) of skateboarding.
but yeah, that's the complete idea in the picture.. no more materials get added to it.


it's big though.. you're supposed to walk inside.. prelim in sketchup:

wail_07.jpg
 
I'm sorry, I thought you were just playing dumb, I had no idea you wanted a serious answer to this question.

Let's start by pointing out that 2 > 1. Would I rather have 1 Ferrari or 2 @ Ferraris? I'll take 2 every time.

(The Professor can probably explain this better than I) (If he isn't busy lecturing Gilligan on Rocket Science)

That's a rather pointless remark, let me continue by pointing out that 4 > 2.

Next, let's look to history. Sometime around 10 years ago Apple started offering Dual CPU G4 PowerMacs. Since then we have increased Cores or Ghz with nearly every iteration of the "Pro" line. This new iCan will mark first time that neither has increased and in fact we have retreated BACKWARDS to offering just a single CPU.

Would I like 4 or 8? Sure, but let's be realistic, that would cost too much money. I would settle for the same old Dual CPU option that has been around for more than a decade.


History is an interesting point to start at particularly since so much has happens with CPUs in 10 years time. Price is also an interesting point and I hoped you would bring up both of these points. Apple has likely looked at their sales of the dual CPU machines, taken costs of a 12 core CPU and the development over the last 10 years into consideration when deciding on a single socket machine.

The rise of GPGPU computing in the same time frame is also something to consider.

Not taking this development into account, is a bit like worrying about your typewriter at the dawn of desktop publishing. Dual core machines has been an available configuration, but no one ever asked for more even though you could get yourself a workstation like the Octane III with up to 120 cores.

http://www.sgi.com/products/remarketed/workstations/octaneIII.html


Do I think it would be awesome if Apple took computers so seriously that they decided to compete at every level and even offered 20 CPU mega server/scientific machines? Absolutely. It would really help cement the brand as being top notch, top to bottom.
But to answer your question, yes, I think 2 is enough, but 4 would be awesome. And I apologize again for not recognizing that you were asking a serious question.

It sounds more like technology for technology's sake than a sign that they take computers seriously. Look at the other workstation vendors, workstations of that calibre disappeared as the PC has converged with the workstation to a large degree. It has come to a point that it's now even hard to distinguish just what makes up a workstation, as we can witness in this very thread.
 
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(The Professor can probably explain this better than I) (If he isn't busy lecturing Gilligan on Rocket Science)

good1.. i wish you were using that in a different circumstance but whatever.. still funny



the rest of your post though.. man, it's fine. it's a perfectly legit stance(although your version might be cranked up to 11).. most of that perfectly sums up the thought train of a past era.. not that we're in a new era now or because of this exact computer or apple directly but just generally speaking.. maybe we're right in the middle of a shift now and we have another couple of years til it becomes more readily apparent.

but maybe you're like the harley guy that would rather cut off his hand before riding one of those newfangled gizmo bikes.. old skool, you know?.. and i'm certainly not knocking that.. it's respectable.. i don't ride motorcycles and barely have throughout my life but if i had describe myself as a harley rider or the crotchrocketeer, i'm pretty sure i'm a lot more harley..

but if you can step out of the culture and view the two bikes with an unbiased mind, i think you would easily see the new one as the better technology.. especially in terms of speed, usability, and efficiency..



[edit] oh.. but hey-- you better mark your words and not let us catch you cruising around on that little wuss-mobile in 5 years
:)



[edit2].. wait.. nvrmnd.. your words are already strongly marked right here on the internet
;)
 
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He doesn't have any rational points at all, he's just trying to keep you going in circles. But i just thought I would add that there are indeed 4-way and 8-way motherboards available so I at least, see your point.

IMO it doesn't matter much if it's a single or dual socket system. I guess it would be nice if they offered a dual - but who's to say they won't? The specs are not finalized - or if they are we have not been shown them. Just a preliminary "sneak preview" some 6 months in advance is all we have at this point. And what they did show us had 12 cores which IMHO is plenty for a first offering in the new form-factor. Intel is all about increasing core-count per chip so I'm sure we will eventually see more than 12 per chip. Also I reckon if we need more CPU cores in the same system for some reason we can just connect one of the many many PCIe Single Board Computers (SBC) on a TB2 port and go. The MIC based Intel Xeon Phi looks like fun!

I agree, it may well happen that they bring out a dual socket model, and if not in this iteration maybe in the next if the demand is there. And it would be fun to see what is possible with something like Xeon Phi over Thunderbolt. :)
 
To me that qualifies as watering down and moving to compete with a less impressive range of machines.
.

It is Apple's pattern.
1. They buy Color (color grading software). Can't compete with BMD's Davinci and EOL's Color
2. They buy Shake (compositing software) from Nothing's Real. Main players leave and go to The Foundry to work on Nuke. EOL's Shake
3. They buy Logic Audio (audio program). It just so happens to still be around for now.
4. They "Bastardized" Final Cut Pro! (video editing software). With the uproar they received they are scrambling to make the next FCPX "usable". The flood gates to Avid and Adobe opened!

This history is why I have zero faith in the nMP being a "great" machine. And no it's not great only if I make it great! I won't get into the "Pro" vs "Nonpro" of it. But all the apps mentioned above were "Pro" apps.
 
Hehe, but I guess some here lack the vision to understand this as being "expansion". :p

:)
i think one of the cooler (maybe not entirely practical $$ wise) expansions of the new mac would be another one..
--
anybody notice there's no speaker in it? pretty bummed on that one.. no longer a workstation because of that if you ask me.

(saying that without actually knowing if theres a speaker in or not tbh)

----------

[color,shake,logic,fcp]

This history is why I have zero faith in the nMP being a "great" machine.

that's fine and you're free to use your logic as you wish.. with me though, i'd have a hard time entirely basing my faith in a machine off something about some acquired software..
 
that's fine and you're free to use your logic as you wish.. with me though, i'd have a hard time entirely basing my faith in a machine off something about some acquired software..

I should have qualified my post with "I have no interest in the nMP what so ever"! Regardless of price and final specs. My lack of faith is based on Apple leaving a market when they can't compete.
 
i'm definitely not saying they won't but i'll theorize they won't..

they messed around with dual socket computers long enough to know way more about them then everybody on this site combined. apple engineers are not idiots as people like to claim.

it seems to me they're saying loud and clear that they believe they've made a mistake with offering the dual sockets.. or more likely-- that the 2+ sockets were a stop gap and have run their course already for PC use.

Mistake? Hardly.

What I see is that Intel figured out how to put 12 cores on a single chip and in doing so, a "1 x 12" became a lot cheaper than a "2 x 6" at the system configuration level ... as such, the design decision was driven by economics.

The caveat to this is as somewhat alluded to elsewhere within the thread with the 'how many CPUs?' question: essentially, both designs have chosen to limit the amount of horsepower that they're offering to 12 cores.

A very obvious alternative would be to offer a dual-CPU system using two 12 core chips ... ie, "2 x 12" ... to get to 24 cores, but this was decided against. IMO, probably because adding parallelism in desktop class systems does not necessarily scale linearly, so the Law of Diminishing Returns applies in many applications (it depends on what you're doing) and it wouldn't have been cost effective ... but if the Market would have been willing to pay for it, we would have it.


-hh
 
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