Oracle sues Google over Android

[edoates]

That was a joke. I find the name amusing because it implies two things:

1. That smaller businesses aren't "enterprises" and
2. That the software is mostly functional, which is mostly isn't until that team of consultants comes in, and then it sort of is. Enough, anyway, although interestingly most "enterprises" that use "enterprise" software are the ones whose customers have little choice and thus have the luxury of saying "tough titty" about the frequent downtimes and other problems...

Sorry, must have missed the smiley. I was in the database business for a while and got tired of various bean counters saying, "Let's use MySQL: it's free" or having consultants who only know Windows saying, "SQLServer on Windows 2K is for you" when it wasn't. Both those products have their places, but if you have lots of data and lots of transactions, they probably aren't the right answers.

Sure, there are small business or even departments than actually need enterprise class solutions, be it database, applications, operating system, or hardware. There are also large organizations that would be served just fine with MySQL.

Enterprise has to do with the scalability and robustness of the solution, not the size of the business.

For the record, I'm an Oracle, Apple, and Microsoft shareholder.

 

[4nNtt]

The problem is that if Oracle wins, everybody who uses Java looses....

I teach basic IP law and this is not good. Software patents are a very, very bad thing.

I have no love for Google or Oracle but once something like this sets a precedence its very bad..

This only applies to creating a VM that uses their intellectual property. They probably have intellectual property that prevents anyone else from making a VM without a license. They can only sue someone for creating a VM, not using Java. Oracle/Sun has to get something out of the deal. If they keep the intellectual property, then they keep control over the platform.

Google could simply give them the VM under the condition that it remains open source. Since Google doesn't really have anything to gain by owning it anyway. This is probably the only alternative VM that has any momentum behind it.

Of course Java has been at a standstill (maybe even losing popularity) for some time... so maybe Oracle just wants to milk it.

 

[forty2j]

This could be a mirror of Sun v. Microsoft.. if Google has implemented there own version of kinda-Java that introduces incompatibilities, Sunacle is perfectly justified in going after them.

On the other hand, if Google just created another JVM by the spec, the suit is probably unfounded.

 

[kdarling]

This could be a mirror of Sun v. Microsoft.. if Google has implemented there own version of kinda-Java that introduces incompatibilities, Sunacle is perfectly justified in going after them.

If Oracle's goal was to make Google bring their Java into compliance, I think a lot of us would be sympathetic.

If it's a bunch of Oracle lawyers and top managers who don't care about standards and who are just figuring out a way to milk some income out of their purchase, then the sympathy is greatly lessened, since the fallout could hurt consumers instead of helping.

 

[Bytor65]

If Oracle's goal was to make Google bring their Java into compliance, I think a lot of us would be sympathetic.

If it's a bunch of Oracle lawyers and top managers who don't care about standards and who are just figuring out a way to milk some income out of their purchase, then the sympathy is greatly lessened, since the fallout could hurt consumers instead of helping.

Having Google in compliance is exactly what Oracle wants.

Previously all Mobile Java users paid license fees. This was the major source of Java revenue.

Since Google figured out a loophole and started giving it away for free, Mobile Java revenues have been drying up.

Google figured out a way to appropriate the technology, avoid licensing, and is destroying Oracles market. It only makes sense for Oracle to pursue any remedy it can. Sun would have done the same if they weren't distracted by going out of business.

 

[sicn]

There's nothing wrong with a cross-platform language except when it's performance is horribly irregular, debugging is a pain, and the language is a bit of a bitch (at least in my experience).

Java is just a pain overall.

Dude, so far you have not given a single quantifiable reason as to why Java sucks. If performance sucks, why are most of biggest corporations in the world embracing Java as pretty much the only option (well, besides Cobol). There is plenty of evidence that Java is faster than .Net and in some cases even faster than C++ for certain applications.

The debugging part I can't understand at all. What about it is a pain? I don't want to offend you but it sounds very much like you are coming from a "Visual Basic 6.0"-mindset where one could change the code during debugging and thought that it was "pretty neat". Well, sure, it is pretty neat, but you know, in most languages (Java included), this is not possible. In Java you can at least change variables or execute code arbitrary code at debug time to change the outcome while debugging..... Do that in a C++ app or Objective C app and tell me how that works out for you

To the point of Java as a language being a bitch, well... I guess that's a matter of opinion. If you don't like C-style languages then you will have to look at some of the other languages like Python or Perl.

As to where my experience comes from, well, I am a software engineering consultant and have worked for major banks, retailers and logistic companies, amongst others.

 

[ragemaster]

Sigh

Oracle sued Google because they changed the java compiler, not because Google used Java

Google did not change the java compiler. The java compiler is still regular old javac.

Java went open source, but you just can't change code as much as a normal java program won't run on java compiler, and that was Google done.

This doesn't even make sense. First of all, Java programs don't run on a compiler; they run on the Java Virtual Machine (JVM). If you meant to say "virtual machine" instead of "compiler", then normal compiled Java programs will not run on Dalvik because Dalvik and the JVM use completely different instruction sets, the same way that a normal x86 program will not run on an ARM processor without modification. Either way, I don't understand what point you were trying to make.

Google done similar step as Apple done to control the OS, but Google just rip off from Sun.

Rip off from Sun? They designed all of their own Android APIs. The fact that you can use the Java programming language to code against the Android API is hardly "ripping off" Sun. If Google released C# bindings for Android, and a CIL-to-Dalvik version of their "dx" tool, would that mean they were "ripping off" Microsoft?

And if you were referring to the patents that Google is supposedly infringing on, I've read them and they're hardly groundbreaking stuff -- I'm sure Sun's lawyers could've found similar infringements in any virtual machine, if they had any desire to. Intellectual Property is nonsense.

 

[KnightWRX]

Guy who understands all of this posted his thoughts :

http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html

A lot of the crap posted in this thread is debunked there (as well as in this thread). Many of the posters that are completely ignorant of what Java actually is would do well to read this.

He repeats what as already been stated. Java is a lot of things, Java the VM, Java the platform, Java the language. He states clearly that Google only uses Java the language. Their platform bindings are their own (Android) and Apache Foundation's Harmony (a 1.5 JavaSE compatible framework) and their VM, Dalvik, does not execute Java bytecode.

 

[John.B]

Guy who understands all of this posted his thoughts :

http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html

A lot of the crap posted in this thread is debunked there (as well as in this thread). Many of the posters that are completely ignorant of what Java actually is would do well to read this.

He repeats what as already been stated. Java is a lot of things, Java the VM, Java the platform, Java the language. He states clearly that Google only uses Java the language. Their platform bindings are their own (Android) and Apache Foundation's Harmony (a 1.5 JavaSE compatible framework) and their VM, Dalvik, does not execute Java bytecode.

The point is that Sun's Java Limited License Grants restrict its use to the whole ball of wax ("Java the VM, Java the platform, Java the language"). Which Google is apparently violating by just using "Java the language" with their homegrown Android APIs.

I pointed this out back in post 227 of this thread, where I referenced Miguel de Icaza's Initial Thoughts on Oracle vs Google Patent Lawsuit blog, specifically:

Some Background on the Java Patents

The Java specification patent grant seems to be only valid as long as you have a fully conformant implementation:

• (a) fully implements the Specification including all its required interfaces and functionality;
• (b) does not modify, subset, superset or otherwise extend the Licensor Name Space, or include any public or protected packages, classes, Java interfaces, fields or methods within the Licensor Name Space other than those required/authorized by the Specification or Specifications being implemented; and
• (c) passes the Technology Compatibility Kit (including satisfying the requirements of the applicable TCK Users Guide) for such Specification ("Compliant Implementation").

It appears that Google would only be licensed to use the "Java is a lot of things" Java, not what Google has implemented with just "Java the language" Java (using their own Android API and VM).

The reason Google did this is obvious, nobody was going to learn a new one-off Google Android language, so Google tried to leverage a language everyone already new and they tried to thread a legal needle to make that happen.

That, in a nutshell, is what this suit is all about.

 

[KnightWRX]

It appears that Google would only be licensed to use the "Java is a lot of things" Java, not what Google has implemented with just "Java the language" Java (using their own Android API and VM).

And again, this only applies if you're actually violating valid patents. Read Nutter's thoughts on this. The license grants is for patents. Patent licenses are only valid if you reimplement said patented methods and if the patents themselves are enforceable (no prior art). Your basically missing this very basic point in your argument.

As Groklaw points out, an insider basically spilled that Google was in talk with Sun about all of this and the fact that they let themselves be sued shows a certain confidence in their position.

And quoting Miguel ? Please, that guy couldn't find his way out of a paperbag. He's probably just hoping this finally gives him credibility for sleeping with Microsoft for all those years. Biggest douche in the open source universe.

 

[Stella]

The debugging part I can't understand at all. What about it is a pain? I don't want to offend you but it sounds very much like you are coming from a "Visual Basic 6.0"-mindset where one could change the code during debugging and thought that it was "pretty neat". Well, sure, it is pretty neat, but you know, in most languages (Java included), this is not possible. In Java you can at least change variables or execute code arbitrary code at debug time to change the outcome while debugging..... Do that in a C++ app or Objective C app and tell me how that works out for you

You can most certainly change code while debugging in Java ( remote debugging at least ). The execution goes back to the start of the changed method.

 

[John.B]

And again, this only applies if you're actually violating valid patents. Read Nutter's thoughts on this. The license grants is for patents. Patent licenses are only valid if you reimplement said patented methods and if the patents themselves are enforceable (no prior art). Your basically missing this very basic point in your argument.

As Groklaw points out, an insider basically spilled that Google was in talk with Sun about all of this and the fact that they let themselves be sued shows a certain confidence in their position.

Well, we''ll see soon enough. My reading on this is that Google thought they could get one over on Sun Micro because they were on life support and weren't expected to survive. To see Oracle take it to Google, well, let's just say that Larry Ellison will be a little more focused on this matter than the guys who ran SUNW into the ground.

As far as your opinions on Miguel, just so you know I hold all open source types in the same low regard. Whether you like him or not has little bearing, the usefulness of his post was the specific reference to the Java/JVM licensing. I was just crediting a source, which seems to be a lost art these days.