Panel Question imac 20'' (2009)

[Canadian Bacon]

Panel Manufacturers and AppleCare

I have since addressed this issue with AppleCare. I explained to the local agent that my replacement unit had a different display than the first unit I was sent. My case was referred to a technical supervisor. I openly stated that the second unit had the 6-bit LG/Philips panel. They asked me how I knew this – and I specifically stated how to check the iMac’s display model. They then checked the serial number of the first unit (from my AppleCare case number) against the second unit’s number. I declined an offer to bring my iMac to an Apple service provider for the display to be checked for ‘defects’ – in which case a new display could be ordered, and asked to be transferred to someone who could solve this issue. My case was then escalated to the technical department in Ireland. When I was asked what I expected to happen, I stated that I had expected the replacement unit to have the same display as the first, and that I was still hoping to receive an iMac with the 8-bit AU Optronics panel, as I was disappointed with the comparative performance of the LG/Philips panel. I maintained that, as a consumer, although I cannot influence Apple’s decision to use two different manufacturers for the displays, I can surely influence whether I am satisfied with the display the iMac was assembled with. They told me that they could theoretically send me a new unit, but that as I had ordered from the online Apple Store, they have no influence on which display is built into a particular batch of iMacs coming off the production line at a given point in time. The supervisor specifically stated that it is impossible to interfere with the production process in order to ensure that an individual iMac is assembled with components according to specific customer wishes. In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Please note, not once did the technical supervisor contradict my claim that the two specific panel manufacturers and panel types mentioned were being used for the current 20” iMacs. Please draw your own conclusions from this.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Why be iMac-less? Order the 24" when you get your full refund and you won't have to play the panel lottery

 

[Canadian Bacon]

Why be iMac-less? Order the 24" when you get your full refund and you won't have to play the panel lottery

You're probably right. If only I weren't so adamant about the 20" being the perfect size for my desk. I guess I'm just making it hard on myself.

 

[trip1ex]

You don't even know if your first iMac had a different panel. I think the speculation upon the speculation has gone too far. Let's see some proof.

 

[rjp]

Interesting:

Here are the specs for your panel.

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/... .../download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF

Try this site and see what it says since your panel uses 6-bit dithering with FRC to achieve 8bit colors.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

INteresting. When I go to this site from a 24" imac it says color depth = 24, but when I go from a 20" imac is says color depth = 32. So I guess it's saying the 20 panels have 10.5 bits per color ;-) Ha ha.

Meaningless site.

 

[The Hammer]

You're probably right. If only I weren't so adamant about the 20" being the perfect size for my desk. I guess I'm just making it hard on myself.

I feel your pain. I would like a 24" top of the line iMac because of the better graphics options but because the iMac isn't height adjustable a 20" will have to do.

 

[iamthedudeman]

The first link shows that the AU M201EW02 VC panel comes with 4 backlights. The other AU panels list 6 backlights. The panel that ifixit looked at also had 4 backlights. Coincidence? Any thoughts?

Well that why I think that the "VF' may be the "C' with a designiaton of "VF' specifically for Apple.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Yes, and 92% color gamut too!

Lucky.

Of course the "VF" version may be a special 6-bit model made for Apple imacs for all we know.

None of the current AU M201EW02 models are 6-bit. This is confirmed by the above link and also AUO stating to me that "we do not use dithering in any of our 2009 panels'.

 

[iamthedudeman]

?

I looked at the monitor with my own 2 eyes.


And when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

You're ignoring all the visits folks made to stores to see with their own 2 eyes that the panel is the same as the previous generation (walks like a duck) and you are ignoring all the reviews that back this up as well (quacks like a duck.)

Instead you are incorrectly assuming a different model # on the lcd means something other than a different model number.

The rest of us are counting the horse's teeth by walking up to the horse and opening up his mouth and looking at the teeth themselves.

I just posted a link for all of the AUO 20.1 monitors in production all with different specs. Of coarse they are all the same "model family' I already said this numerous times. But they have different "designations'.

There is a difference. A family of products with different 'designations' mean that they all are the same "model' with different or improved specs or specs that are manufacturer specific. This is confirmed by this link:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/m...br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Notice that the specs are quite different between the M201EW02 V0-V8 and the M201EW02 VC. Here are all the different 'designations' of the same 'model.

M201EW02 V0
M201EW02 V1
M201EW02 V2
M201EW02 V8
M201EW02 V9
M201EW02 VB
M201EW02 VC

Now notice how the M201EW02 V0-V8 specs are very different from the M201EW02 VC. From the above link. Now I have a M201EW02 VF panel. The VC and the VF are most likely the "same' panel. With the 'VF" being exclusive to Apple.

The 'designatons' with a "number' most likely have the same specs. As you can see here:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/m...br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

The numbers most likely indicate a different part number, or a panel for a specific manufacturer.

The ones ending in a "letter' most likely have different specs. There is a complete difference between the models here that end in a "number' as opposed to a 'letter'.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/m...br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=


Your assuming that I am the only person who sees a difference when that is not true. There are numerous people on this site, as well as others that stated that the 2009 models in general are "too bright'. I have already posted a link in this thread to the info. So you're the one ignoring the facts. Not me. I owned a late model 2008 20 and now own a 2009 20' so I guess I am crazy and you're right and I am wrong.

The 2009 models have different manufactures for the panel with different specs. AUO makes one panel that is 8-bit, LG makes the other that is 6-bit with FRC. That is a big difference.

 

[iamthedudeman]

I have since addressed this issue with AppleCare. I explained to the local agent that my replacement unit had a different display than the first unit I was sent. My case was referred to a technical supervisor. I openly stated that the second unit had the 6-bit LG/Philips panel. They asked me how I knew this – and I specifically stated how to check the iMac’s display model. They then checked the serial number of the first unit (from my AppleCare case number) against the second unit’s number. I declined an offer to bring my iMac to an Apple service provider for the display to be checked for ‘defects’ – in which case a new display could be ordered, and asked to be transferred to someone who could solve this issue. My case was then escalated to the technical department in Ireland. When I was asked what I expected to happen, I stated that I had expected the replacement unit to have the same display as the first, and that I was still hoping to receive an iMac with the 8-bit AU Optronics panel, as I was disappointed with the comparative performance of the LG/Philips panel. I maintained that, as a consumer, although I cannot influence Apple’s decision to use two different manufacturers for the displays, I can surely influence whether I am satisfied with the display the iMac was assembled with. They told me that they could theoretically send me a new unit, but that as I had ordered from the online Apple Store, they have no influence on which display is built into a particular batch of iMacs coming off the production line at a given point in time. The supervisor specifically stated that it is impossible to interfere with the production process in order to ensure that an individual iMac is assembled with components according to specific customer wishes. In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Please note, not once did the technical supervisor contradict my claim that the two specific panel manufacturers and panel types mentioned were being used for the current 20” iMacs. Please draw your own conclusions from this.

I know I am reaching here, but this could be very interesting.

If I am not mistaken, Apple uses two different Model numbers for the 2009 imac.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1758

MB417XX/A iMac (20-inch, Early 2009)
MC019XX/A iMac (20-inch, Early 2009)

Can one model number coincide with what panel are in each?

My model number is MB417LL/A. Hence the model family of MB417XX/A. Could these models use the AUO 8-bit panels? What was your last model number that you sent back if you suspect that it had a better looking screen. If may mean nothing but if you also had a MB417XX/A we may be onto something here.

Or maybe not. Worth a shot.

 

[iamthedudeman]

I can make that claim. I said a different panel number doesn't mean it is improved.

Dudeman's whole claim in based on a different #.

While the rest of us have all confirmed, by looking with our own 2 eyes, at many more iMacs than Dudeman has, that the new 20" iMac has the same panel. All reviews of the new iMacs have also backed this up.

Is there a chance Dudeman is right? Sure there's a chance. Just like Jim Carrey had a chance in Dumb & Dumber.

But the burden of proof is on him because he has the million to one odds. Not on me or anyone else saying that the panels are the same.

Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen.

Funny how he has the proof in front of him, but instead is speculating on model numbers.

How do you know how many imacs I have looked at? To state such a claim is a joke. Your making a fool of yourself.

How can imacs with with different panels from different manufactures be the same. Please explain this to me. I would really like to hear it.


It is confirmed that the new imacs use different panels. One a 8-bit one a 6-bit with FRC. This is a fact.

I am lying to you. My screen looks horrible. Lol.

Million to one odds.

"Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen."

Ok. Consider yourself owned.

I stated that there was not a difference in color from the sides but there is at the bottom.

Here is your proof. Two extreme shots from the sides showing no color shift, one from the bottom showing the color shift as stated. And one straight one for ownage.

 

[tms568]

Hi Guys.
Starting this thread I didn't thought of bringing up such a wide discussion. The "panel question" seems to be interesting to a lot of people ;-)

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

Refering to the display quality I can underline dudeman's opinion. There is a minimal contrast shift from the sides, good viewing angles and of course a shift if you go up and down. For me, I'm very happy with this display ;-)

@ dudeman: Do you have changed the display settings to get an even better result? Can you please post the setting - I have no special programs or expert know-how to optimize the display/colours. Thanx !!

 

[iamthedudeman]

Hi Guys.
Starting this thread I didn't thought of bringing up such a wide discussion. The "panel question" seems to be interesting to a lot of people ;-)

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

Refering to the display quality I can underline dudeman's opinion. There is a minimal contrast shift from the sides, good viewing angles and of course a shift if you go up and down. For me, I'm very happy with this display ;-)

@ dudeman: Do you have changed the display settings to get an even better result? Can you please post the setting - I have no special programs or expert know-how to optimize the display/colours. Thanx !!

You can find your model number right on the box. No doubt about it the panel you and I have is a better panel.

As far as the display settings. Mine is stock, no adjustments so far. I don't think I need to as I am happy with the settings as is.

Thanks for posting. It would be interesting to know if you have the same model as me. And if canadian B had the same one we may have something here.

 

[Canadian Bacon]

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

I can't find these MB/MC numbers ANYWHERE, either on the box of the 2nd unit, or in my order invoices or emails from the Apple Online Store. The only part number, which was the same for both iMacs, appeared on the box and the invoices: ZOFN00164, model number: A1224

Both units were shipped from:
Foxconn Technology CZ, s.r.o
Karlov 245
284 01 Kutna Hora
Czech Republic

Edit: When I configure a CTO 20"er on the German Apple Store website, this part number appears in the browser's address bar: http://store.apple.com/de/configure/MB417D/A?mco=NDE4NDI4MA
Also, under Apple's 'technical specifications', only this number is listed under the picture of the 20" model: (MB417*/A)

 

[rjp]

These pictures show nothing

How do you know how many imacs I have looked at? To state such a claim is a joke. Your making a fool of yourself.

How can imacs with with different panels from different manufactures be the same. Please explain this to me. I would really like to hear it.


It is confirmed that the new imacs use different panels. One a 8-bit one a 6-bit with FRC. This is a fact.

I am lying to you. My screen looks horrible. Lol.

Million to one odds.

"Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen."

Ok. Consider yourself owned.

I stated that there was not a difference in color from the sides but there is at the bottom.

Here is your proof. Two extreme shots from the sides showing no color shift, one from the bottom showing the color shift as stated. And one straight one for ownage.

Iamthedudeman,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post pictures, but I am afraid that in this case they show nothing other than the fact that you definitely have a TN monitor, which you already knew.

All of the TN monitors used in the 20" imac show the exact same effect that your images demonstrate. I explained this already on this thread.

You should see no color shift from the sides, and extreme color shift from top and bottom. From the sides the colors should hold pretty much steady but become washed out with low contrast exactly as shown in your photos.

Sorry you went through the trouble for nothing. I can not think of any photo you could possibly post that would prove you have a superior monitor.

If you were able to get side by side photos of your imac and another imac that does not have the superior panel then we could possibly observe the relative difference between the two. But all I see in your photos is an imac monitor that looks and behaves just like mine. And I have the LG, philips 6 bit.

 

[trip1ex]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Iamthedudeman,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post pictures, but I am afraid that in this case they show nothing other than the fact that you definitely have a TN monitor, which you already knew.

All of the TN monitors used in the 20" imac show the exact same effect that your images demonstrate. I explained this already on this thread.

You should see no color shift from the sides, and extreme color shift from top and bottom. From the sides the colors should hold pretty much steady but become washed out with low contrast exactly as shown in your photos.

Sorry you went through the trouble for nothing. I can not think of any photo you could possibly post that would prove you have a superior monitor.

If you were able to get side by side photos of your imac and another imac that does not have the superior panel then we could possibly observe the relative difference between the two. But all I see in your photos is an imac monitor that looks and behaves just like mine. And I have the LG, philips 6 bit.

Actually from the sides, the colors are not washed out. From the pics you can clearly see the colors do not change, the wash effect is from the high gloss and the flash from the camera. From the sides you can clearly see the screen and the colors remain the same. From the bottom is a different story.

Try taking a picture of a 24' from the same angle, you will get the same wash out effect as my 20' from the flash and high gloss screen.
My main focus by posting the pictures was to show that the colors remain the same.

Seeing it close up is a different story. Pics do not do it justice. My 2008 mac from the side you could not see anything, it was totally washed out. My 2009 does not have this problem.

I will try again once I figure to reduce the gloss from ruining the picture.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

How about the google home page, that should work. I will try your suggestions. As far as owning myself, yes the photos are bad, but the damn high gloss makes it ipossible to get a good shot.

 

[Canadian Bacon]

Seeing it close up is a different story. Pics do not do it justice. My 2008 mac from the side you could not see anything, it was totally washed out. My 2009 does not have this problem.

For what it's worth, I took some pics of my 2nd unit with the LG panel before I packed it up, but I didn't use the colour shift grid (4 coloured boxes) to do it. However, my first reaction on seeing dudeman's pics was: "this iMac on my desk doesn't look as good as his does at those angles." - My first one did though (read: subjective recollection). Also, I'm confident I can confirm the judgement: "Seeing it close up is a different story." On my first unit, the dock icons' edges were as smooth as I remember them being on the 24" model. Not so on MY 2nd one. And all the wallpaper photos didn't look half as real on the 2nd unit. They all looked grainy, and pardon the pun, computer-generated.

So, just thinking out loud...what if someone else were to reproduce dudeman's pics using the 4-square color grid, and a shot of the white turning to tan color shift on a LG-panel iMac, and post them to make a comparison of the degree of washout, colour shift etc? Unfortunately, my pics wouldn't be ideal for this purpose, or I'd do it myself. And before I get blasted for suggesting that...I know it is difficult to reproduce the lighting conditions, exact viewing angles he used, and to take into account different cameras taking the pics, etc., etc., etc.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

Well I don't think that any pictures I post will do the justice for seeing it for yourself. The color saturation and brightness and angle are all superior to the previous panel I had on the 2008 model. Here are somemore pics from my iphone since it doesn't have flash. The white was maybe a bad idea, from straight on. Too much interference.

Here they are:

 

[rjp]

Dudeman,

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to say. The 4-color test is only to be used to reveal color shifts from top to bottom.

You should not expect any LCD screen to show color shifts from left to right.

The fact that yours does not shift left to right in not remarkable. It is normal.

All LCD screens will start to appear washed out at extreme angles left and right, even the 24 shows this.

The only way you will ever "prove" anything is to have two monitors side by side, same camera, same lighting.

You know what I'm thinking now, you just had a bad 2008 model. Your current pics look the same as my 2007.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to say. The 4-color test is only to be used to reveal color shifts from top to bottom.

You should not expect any LCD screen to show color shifts from left to right.

The fact that yours does not shift left to right in not remarkable. It is normal.

All LCD screens will start to appear washed out at extreme angles left and right, even the 24 shows this.

The only way you will ever "prove" anything is to have two monitors side by side, same camera, same lighting.

You know what I'm thinking now, you just had a bad 2008 model. Your current pics look the same as my 2007.

I know what you're saying. I am trying to show that there is not a 'washout' effect when looking from a angle. Not color. And on a 6-bit panel with "dithering' you will get that effect.

My panel does not have that effect. My last panel did. My last panel looked good, just not as good as the one I have. Take some pics from the side or look at your panel from the side. You will get my meaning.

My 24' at work does not have that effect. It does not become 'washed out' at angles. My 2009 does not become washedout at angles. My 2008 panel became 'washed out' at angles. There was nothing wrong with my 2008 panel. One panel is 8 bit with true color one is not. It's as simple as that.

You will see a 'mirroring' effect' and your panel will appear "washed out' with a 6-bit panel.

Take some pics and post them to get my meaning.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Here is a pic of a 6-bit panel even without a gloss screen. This is my daughter's dell. Notice the 'washout' effect or mirroring effect. My last 2008 had this same problem. Now compare that to my 2009 imac.

 

[Moriarty]

Looks like the Dell's screen brightness is set a lot lower to me.

 

[rjp]

Looks like the Dell's screen brightness is set a lot lower to me.

In addition to the brightness difference, what you are demonstrating here is the difference between matte and glossy.