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Workerbee Redux

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2016
155
189
California
And since my work involves developing WINDOWS Application Software, and my work provides me a laptop for that purpose, I simply end up not using my MBP that much.
Yeah, well then you are not using it in the way a pro user would. You might still be a pro user for your wintel laptop, but not for the MBP.
[doublepost=1480614879][/doublepost]
Same with 32GB. Plenty want thin and light and great battery over 32GB and these people are voting with their wallet instead of just bitching on a forum.
Well, the Linux and Dell forums are currently full with people, especially software developers, looking for advise on how to switch. Same with sites like hackernews (where lots of startup founders/developers hang out), same with the hackintosh forums. Those are highly-tech savvy multipliers that are voting with their wallets as well. Apple gained that buyer group in the early 2000's when they used Unix underneath and redefined how a laptop could look and work - now they are losing them in droves.

Make no mistake, a tree rotting from the core will seem intact from the outside for a long time as well.
 
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rtoborek

macrumors newbie
Dec 1, 2016
1
0
Bethesda, MD
The 16GB limit is an absolute PITA.
Throttle it back and disable half when on battery. At least make it work when plugged in.
CPU's do that. Car engines do that. So many things do that. Apple can't?
 

dysamoria

macrumors 68020
Dec 8, 2011
2,247
1,868
I'm sorry, but I consider this as far from reality as possible.
You seem to be talking about an assembled PC from 1998 running a cracked copy of Windows ME.

Windows is not "crap", there is no "voodoo" involved in buying a laptop from Dell.
You buy it, plug it in and get work done. It's that easy.
Certainly there is no "hardware voodoo" involved since XPS 13's are sealed and not user serviceable, just like the rMBP.

And to be completely frank, I don't think the "overall user experience" should matter to a professional, just the ROI.
If the machine lets you get more work done faster for less money, it's better by definition, even if it's ugly and clearly designed by a bunch of monkeys with no taste.

I fully see how, if you are dependent on a particular Mac-only software stack - or are just very very used to a certain environment, you are basically stuck with it.

This doesn't mean the alternative is "garbage".

The entire planet buys truckloads of Windows laptops from Dell every year and reports a positive fiscal year nevertheless, so either you are wrong, or they are all ignoring an easy opportunity to make much more money, which I don't think is the case.

I don't give a crap about their fiscal anything. Every PC laptop my girlfriend has ever bought (cheap or expensive) has had an utterly unreliable (or virtually broken) trackpad and noisy fan. She keeps using them because she has some insane level of tolerance for things that don't work... like so much of the PC using public. Her partner replaces his Dell laptops about every one or two years because of motherboard failures.

Windows wastes my time every time I use it with endless (slow and failure-prone) updates, useless update status indicators (the Windows 10 anniversary update also undid a bunch of customization and settings, forcing me into repeat effort), and update-forced reboots.

The GUI is a schizophrenic mess.

My optical mouse requires being unplugged and replugged repeatedly on every boot/resume in order to operate properly (starting with Windows 8, the tracking light flickers and blinks on Windows start/resume; I didn't have this problem with vista on the same hardware, and the thing works fine from initial power-on state right up to when Windows drivers take over).

GPU problems in Windows 8/10 lead to forced reboots, where vista used to just recover by restarting the graphics subsystem/drivers, not force a reboot with DPC error messages.

Compared to Mac OS and core audio, Windows' audio subsystem is crap. System activity constantly interrupts simple MP3 playback (why is it so hard to play a stereo audio stream reliably when also loading and scrolling websites?). ASIO is a clumsy pain in the ass workaround that doesn't share audio between apps and WASAPI isn't much better.

Etc. I'm sure there will be a bunch of "you must have a problem with your system because I don't have these problems" comments. Yeah, I do have a problem with it: it's a PC running Windows and both are fundamentally flawed to an extreme degree that most computer people refuse to admit. It's incredibly easy to build bad systems (even if you're an experienced tech person, because of the vast potential incompatibilities between parts that claim to be compatible), drivers are incredibly poorly written because the OS architecture allows it, software is frail and easy to break because the OS architecture allows (and promotes) it, and the OS itself is incredibly frail and vulnerable (not to mention the thousands of different parts manufacturers and their different interpretations of standards; illusion of choice).

If you're happy with prebuilt PCs and you're happy with Windows, then fine. You're probably acclimated to being a troubleshooter for your own computers and you may not care about the hundreds of annoyances that bother the hell out of me with Windows. Good for you if so. But I'm utterly sick of troubleshooting Windows and PC problems (much of which is engineering shortcuts, bad software design, lack of usability testing/consideration, and subtle incompatibility despite claims otherwise). PC support was my career and it burned me the hell out. Then I worked at educating users so they could get work done (with tools that were clearly not designed with normal human beings in mind), which let me see just how much indoctrination we tech people have that makes us tolerate/excuse over-complicated/bad design and erratic inconsistency in a piece of machinery that should really behave with mathematically predictable constancy, not present the unintended simulation of attitude. PCs with Windows are almost like living things, as seen in their fundamentally unpredictable and inconsistent behavior, even across identical hardware and software (I've supported entire rooms of identical cloned machines that booted at different speeds and had different software faults/behaviors).

The world of PC "troubleshooting" is full of tech people who will unhelpfully dismiss user problems with "it works for me; PEBCAK", fanboys mocking users' problems on support forums for software that behaves utterly inconsistently across PC builds (I'm looking at you, Sonar fanboys), and companies who's "support" amounts to instructions on reverting a drive to factory condition instead of addressing individual issues (forcing the users to back up their data to another location and replace it, or lose everything in their PC maker's lazy "solution") because the number of possible software problems with Windows (such as in the monolithic settings database and central point of failure called the registry) are so vast that running support services that actually deal with individual issues isn't cost-effective or remotely practical for businesses that actually sell computers.

I find this over-complex and inconsistent environment to be a usability and management disaster. The fact that PCs have entire cottage industries of third party tools and services that have grown into massive markets to address design failures and vulnerabilities is, and has been, a clear indicator of just how bad the PC environment is. Users are so used to things going wrong that they even read message boxes wrongly, presuming that every status message is an error (or ignoring every status message because they're either functionally useless clutter or say nothing in plain language). With the conditioned expectations of problems, it's easy to use social engineering and scare tactics to convince users to install junkware.

I've felt the PC world to be a disaster for a very long time and it's only getting "different", not better. The Mac isn't far behind, with the current state of Apple's focuses. The Mac used to be very far ahead in terms of simplicity, sensibility, and reliability, but it has been compromised by Apple's pursuit of thermally unsound thinness and OS bloat from iPhone/online services. They've turned a justifiably-costly-but-reliable system into a unjustifiably-costly overcomplication that only barely maintains its overall user experience superiority over PCs due to a better software architecture and an aversion to perpetual backwards compatibility (the double edged issue that itself can be, I'd rather an operating system not become a cess pool like Windows, but Apple's taking it to new extremes with their accelerated planned obsolescence).
 
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villicodelirant

Suspended
Aug 3, 2011
396
697
I don't give a crap about their fiscal anything.

Sir, ROI has nothing to do with "fiscal anything".
Is how many dollars you make for every dollar spent, and a business aims to keep that as high as possible.

If they still buy brands other than Apple, either they could do better, or Dell and HP do a good job of maximizing your ROI.

Just so that we're on the same page: I consider ROI to be the only measure of a professional system - or tool.
How many pennies you can make with it.
I don't care about the pleasure you derive from the user experience or how miserable it makes you.

Every PC laptop my girlfriend has ever bought (cheap or expensive) has had an utterly unreliable (or virtually broken) trackpad and noisy fan.

Sorry that your girlfriend is not good at buying hardware.
Mine isn't either, to be honest.

If you're happy with prebuilt PCs and you're happy with Windows, then fine. You're probably acclimated to being a troubleshooter for your own computers and you may not care about the hundreds of annoyances that bother the hell out of me with Windows. Good for you if so.

Or... you know, other people just somehow manage to get work done without being annoyed.

The world of PC "troubleshooting" is full of tech people who will unhelpfully dismiss user problems with "it works for me; PEBCAK",

You should really fire your IT people.
PM me for a quotation :)

fanboys mocking users' problems on support forums for software that behaves utterly inconsistently across PC builds (I'm looking at you, Sonar fanboys),

I am an amateur musician and I totally agree about ASIO and the state of... anything that is not Logic + Mainstage, including Ableton or Forte.
You're right.
You are totally right about that.

However, DAWs are a niche market - an important niche, but you can't call all brands other than Apple "crap" based on how well they fill one niche.
 
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dysamoria

macrumors 68020
Dec 8, 2011
2,247
1,868
Sir, ROI has nothing to do with "fiscal anything".

I'm not sure where ROI came into this. I was responding to the comment about their fiscal year success seemingly being an indicator of good product (or "good enough"). I don't care about it when it is not earned through quality product. To me, it's a bunch of whining when shareholders complain that their value is not good enough, or when a board of directors complains about profits not perpetually increasing. These are unsustainable and fantastical desires. They can manipulate product, consumers, and calculation to make the numbers increase to their satisfaction, and they often ruin the product, abuse the consumers, and lie with numbers to meet the ridiculous goals. Therefore, again: I don't care about fiscal numbers as a declaration of a product's quality.

I don't care about the pleasure you derive from the user experience or how miserable it makes you.

I didn't ask you to.

Sorry that your girlfriend is not good at buying hardware.
Mine isn't either, to be honest.

She's fine at buying hardware. She's bad at letting the companies build garbage. Oh wait, that's not her fault in the least.

Her options are extremely limited because of her needs (she splurged this last time just to get a backlit keyboard; for the first time in ages, she didn't buy a Dell because they didn't provide this option either at all or at her price range) and her ability to spend (small non-profit organizations generally don't have lots of money to play with). Her partner spends more on his machines because he works a lot faster/harder/longer and does a lot of travel, yet he is still replacing his more expensive machines due to premature hardware failure (which has gotten him to buy into Dell's service program, which is great for them and marginally protects him a little bit from downtime when his machines prematurely die). This is not acceptable business practice, but everyone just shrugs and normalizes it.

Or... you know, other people just somehow manage to get work done without being annoyed.

On PCs and with Windows? Yeah, I suppose they do. Me? Not any more. I'd have to be in Photoshop and Bridge for hours to not be driven mad for hours spent in Windows. My mouse and Wacom are good on the PC (unlike the horrific trackpad experience I've had on EVERY Windows laptop I've used in the last 8 years). The last straw was my current/last PC build (which turned into two builds and countless replacement parts and spending beyond the initial build's budget, and I did NOT buy cheap garbage, and I DID know what I was doing, thank you very much).

After decades of being a support person, I got sick of it. Especially when doing it for my own computers that I'm trying to use as tools. I experience much less annoyance using a Mac and my response to discovering this was to abandon Windows. Actually, I had originally partially left Windows for BeOS, before Mac OS became as nice as it was with Snow Leopard. But BeOS ... Sad story. Anyway, my tolerance for Windows got smaller the longer I was using something else (i also found that my tolerance for Linux was never going to start). Once I got used to using Mac OS on a daily basis, I couldn't go back to Windows. If your experience varies, so be it.

You should really fire your IT people.
PM me for a quotation :)

You mean fire myself? I live in poverty, so I won't be hiring anyone. But I would LOVE to make it someone else's job responsibility to ensure my computers do the **** they're supposed to do, when they're supposed to. I'd love to threaten to fire arrogant tech geeks when they fail in their task (no, I'm kidding about that; that's just cruel, seeing as I know the facts about the business). Having been an IT person for many years, I am well aware that IT people, by and large, can't fix things. They can only work around problems and replace parts that are obviously bad. IT people are there to get people going again when things inevitably go wrong; they aren't there to make people's lives easier (that's what better design should be doing and was doing between 2007 and 2013). Some of them are there to inform users on how to most effectively do work with this horrible technology (education; that was my favorite job; most rewarding and happiest clients).

I am an amateur musician and I totally agree about ASIO and the state of... anything that is not Logic + Mainstage, including Ableton or Forte.
You're right.
You are totally right about that.

I'm happy we can see eye-to-eye on this. :) Are you on KVR?

However, DAWs are a niche market - an important niche, but you can't call all brands other than Apple "crap" based on how well they fill one niche.

I'm not judging based on one niche. I'm calling all the other brands crap because, in comparison, every computing activity I have experience with has been less frustrating and less rife with problems on the Mac, compared to the PC (Adobe was just about balanced between the two platforms; it was mostly how Windows got in the way that impacted me there). Web browsing, word processing, file management, software installation/removal, listening to music and playing back video, startup/shutdown/sleep and updating... All the basics, plus the narrow niches like audio production have been better experiences for me on Mac OS and Mac hardware. (I'm saying better; not perfect)

The exception is 3D modeling and rendering. What an effing disaster that has been on the Mac. Lightwave? Crap on Mac OS (I gave up at 9.6.1, so if it has dramatically improved, it's too late for me). Modo? Crap on Mac OS (and I loath the shader tree, so no loss there). Carrara? Notably worse on Mac than Windows, but overall horrible on both. ZBrush? Well, that's just a horrible piece of software designed by crackheads and used by the self-abusive or the insane, so it's horrible always, everywhere. but seriously, while I acknowledge its capabilities, it saved corrupted documents on my Mac on several occasions while I was fighting and struggling to LEARN to use it as the developers intend; the data corruption cured me of my desire to become comfortable with the GUI, and I did not work as much with it on my PC as I had already begun my transition away from PC, so I can't tell if file corruption was a universal thing or a platform issue).

The biggest issue is that 3D packages are effing garbage in terms of usability and reliability, but they're even less reliable on Mac OS (or they were 4-6 years ago). In music software, my only cross platform experience where the Mac experienced a deficit was Cubase 4.x. I haven't touched it since, because it was a crash-prone, cluttered POS (and I hate dongles).

In the above examples, it was not the Mac or the OS at fault for the lesser experience. It was the individual software and its developers doing almost zero QA on Mac before selling their bug-ridden products.

I would be happy to go back to BeOS, if it were modern and had any software. That was my favorite OS experience (somewhat colored with geek sunglasses). Mac OS is my best choice at abandoning Windows because of despising its user experience. It's been a very long time in coming. Hah, but I'm not even using a Mac most days because I'm fed up waiting for Apple to sell a damned professional machine to replace my obsolete MacBook Pro 5,5. I do very little music or photography as a result of the small, low-resolution screen. I'm on an iPad Pro most days for consumption and writing/communications. Retina text for the win. I've even been making some music with it (which I sometimes port to Logic on my MacBook, if I like what I've made enough to do the work).

Blah blah blah... Thanks for the metal stimulation (though I'm mostly just repeating myself on this topic).
 

Naimfan

Suspended
Jan 15, 2003
4,669
2,017
The whole machine - indeed, every laptop - is a set of compromises. In this case, Apple's seem to be poorly judged, valuing thin over performance and usability. That's not a compromise many are willing to make, and it makes it appear as if Apple is turning its figurative back to a formerly critical part of it's user base.
 

Mark Booth

macrumors 68000
Jan 16, 2008
1,658
495
Hey Phil, here's a thought... instead of making a "Pro" machine thinner and thinner with each new release, how about giving the machine PRO features like a BIGGER battery AND 32GB of memory?! You want to sell a crapload of MBPs? Give them 20 hour battery life and some ports that don't require dongles for 99% of what they want to plug in!

Apple has completely forgotten what "Pro" means. There are reports of engineers leaving Apple in droves because they feel the same way.

But, damn, go ahead and molify the masses by giving them a rose colored case! Yeah baby, that's a Pro feature right there!

Apple is now an appliance manufacturer. Another Sony. It's time for Apple's BOD to step in and make some management changes to hopefully save the company.

Mark
 
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lbalk

macrumors newbie
Dec 9, 2015
14
9
This Macbook was a huge disappointment, I waited so long for it an \d now I need to look at other options.
 
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