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Would you buy MacBook with touchbar?

  • Yes

    Votes: 46 59.7%
  • No

    Votes: 31 40.3%

  • Total voters
    77

overlof

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 1, 2010
21
13
Firstly, I got MacBook Air 13 "2013 in 2013. What I joy that machine was for me ... Excellent keyboard, smooth GUI workflow, long lasting battery life (while learning C ++ I was able to code and surfing web for at least 9 hours), magsafe. I became addicted to Mac OS X. It is the best OS.
Later I foolishly bought tbMBP 15 " 512 gb in 2016 for price like 6 times more expensive (in my local currency because of crisis).
What a mess it was (and currently is):
- weirdest thing is touchbar, which downgraded my workflow speed and killed my nerves cuz of esc miss clicks and time-to-time random clicks on touchbar because my fingers are too long;
- battery life is 4 hours (much less than MBP 15 "2015 of my friend)
- integrated GUI is two times slower than Iris Pro, so till 2018 I had severe GUI lags even while scrolling PDF in Preview (my current Mac OS 10.14.2 works much better, but lags and freezes are still here);
- two times keyboard was replaced because of failure;
- keyboard is too loud;
- I don't even list magsafe being lost, screen shakes while it is opened, constant fear of losing dongles somewhere.

I'm too tired by touchbar but I have no option to buy new MacBook Pro without it. I don't want to return to Windows world because it counterproductive either.
I think about buying used MacBook Pro 2013-2015.
I wrote this post just to share my experience. I don't get the thing. I have money. I like Mac OS X. I like to program with maximum speed. I don't like that touchbar has no:
- two states (pre-click state and click state)
- tactile response
- ability to click buttons without losing sight from notebook's screen.

I don't know how to deal with this situation, really(
P. S. BTT changes nothing for me.
 
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Audit13

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2017
6,905
1,845
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I really hate touchbar. It is a deal-breaker for me. There are no MacBook Pros without touchbar in Apple's lineup.
Thanks. I didn't know that the TB is standard on all new MacBook Pros. I only look for used 2013 to 2015 Pros and Airs for friends, family, and to use for parts. I don't really know anything about the TB MacBooks.

I don't have a new MacBook (too expensive for me to buy) because I'm sticking with my Late 2013 13" and early 2015 13" Air. I'm a very basic user and these suit my needs perfectly.

I should have added the word Air when referring to the 2019/20 models.
 
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esphil

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2008
190
95
Pickup a Macbook Air, just got mine yesterday and really have been enjoying it. Takes me back to the older macbooks in the form factor I used to have.
 
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senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,627
5,482
I wonder if Apple product managers ever did user studies on the 2016 - 2020 Macbook Pros. Did they really not catch all of the glaring user experience flaws of this generation's laptops? Or did they catch it but the higher-ups just overruled them?
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
You're in the same spot I was about 2 years ago. But I gave up on Apple.
Using a thinkpad + linux atm. Keyboard is way better then even on 2012-2016 Apple era. Loads of ports. Robust laptop, lightweight, replaceable ssd+ram, heck, even wi-fi, great screen.

With linux you almost get Mac OS. No fancy trackpad gestures, but open OS that you can tinker to your desire. And a great platform for developers like us.
 

overlof

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 1, 2010
21
13
I wonder if Apple product managers ever did user studies on the 2016 - 2020 Macbook Pros. Did they really not catch all of the glaring user experience flaws of this generation's laptops? Or did they catch it but the higher-ups just overruled them?
I think the problem is that Apple guys live in Silicon Valley with high salaries and they lost connection with reality where most people live in. I also mean glued batteries when you need to throw in trash iPad, MacBook(3000 $) every 3-5 years, because there is no possible way to change dead battery for adequate price.
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You're in the same spot I was about 2 years ago. But I gave up on Apple.
Using a thinkpad + linux atm. Keyboard is way better then even on 2012-2016 Apple era. Loads of ports. Robust laptop, lightweight, replaceable ssd+ram, heck, even wi-fi, great screen.

With linux you almost get Mac OS. No fancy trackpad gestures, but open OS that you can tinker to your desire. And a great platform for developers like us.
Ohhh thx for advice. I even didn't think about Linux as solution.
I would think about it.

I can't back to Windows after Mac/Unix terminal. I think doing things in Windows min 2x slower for me.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
I can't back to Windows after Mac/Unix terminal. I think doing things in Windows min 2x slower for me.

Likewise. I don't like Windows at all. A lot of people do, and I'm glad it works for them.
But try out in VM PopOS or something similar. You can even install Kubuntu and customize it so that it behaves and looks like Mac OS. A lot of possibilities with Linux.

And once you try Thinkpad X1 Extreme keyboard out, well, let's just say you're gonna love it.
 
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overlof

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 1, 2010
21
13
Likewise. I don't like Windows at all. A lot of people do, and I'm glad it works for them.
But try out in VM PopOS or something similar. You can even install Kubuntu and customize it so that it behaves and looks like Mac OS. A lot of possibilities with Linux.

And once you try Thinkpad X1 Extreme keyboard out, well, let's just say you're gonna love it.
I don't know how good IntelliJ works on Linux. I think it is much worse than on Mac OS X. But thank you for advice, again.
 

wegster

macrumors 6502a
Nov 1, 2006
642
298
I was in a similar position. I've bought new MacBooks from Apple, refurbs, as well as specific almost-new but near topped systems used.
Went through the first core 2 duo MBP, then Santa Rosa white MacBook I maxed out, then in 2012 picked up a 2011 BTO model, which I upgraded RAM, converted to SSD + second drive, then went to look at a 2016 model.

Had been desperately hoping for a 32GB RAM option, rest could almost be the same other than moving up in storage size. Would have bought the day they came out, but ... ...

Instead, no 32GB option. We got 'thinner', less ports, a 'look, it's thinner!' keyboard and OMGWTF - Touch Bar and no ESC key = no chance. Don't care about it, want it, and worse, no ESC etc. = this causes problems. Total fail to meet ANY of my actual needs. Checked out possible options, but - Apple literally had nothing to sell that I would pay for in a laptop. :(

Bought someone's year old higher spec 2015 MBP15 instead. Not a huge difference vs the upgraded 2011 honestly, although it had a retina screen. Yes on faster, just not amazingly so overall.

The 2015 served me pretty well, other than being unable to expand RAM or storage. I might even still be using it if I hadn't nearly maxed the 1TB SSD at some 950GB, and were able to upgrade it to 32GB RAM. The combination of low free SSD space + routinely maxing out the RAM meant a growing # of beachballs as I couldn't even use virtual memory/swap to the extent it was becoming needed.

Note - everyone's situation is different - that 2015 MBP15 with a clean OS install and wipe of my files, etc.. would be perfectly fine for MANY users for years to come...just for my use of RAM AND storage...I hit the limits.

While this was becoming obvious, I kept looking at new MBP models. Saw the crap keyboard issues; no thanks. Still no sanity on Touch Bar, dongle hell, the 'brave' BS comment followed by 'too thin to add HDMI or any other port' while my work-issues Surfacebook clone 'somehow' managed to fit one without issues on a thinner chassis.

I was getting pretty pissed off, and wound up having to use my Surfacebook clone more and more for work, while at every release Apple made - nope, still nothing for me. Yeah, I could have added external storage and it would have likely made the machine usable for me for a while longer, but it would have made it more difficult to disconnect from home office setup to head to the office, etc. An iMac or mini, or even over-priced Pro had the same issue. At this point, I pretty much need a single beefy laptop to be my 'good enough' portable workstation, docked at home and and work to external KB, 38" LCD at home or 2x27" LCDs at work, and be able to travel as is, etc.

Had to replace my wife's earlier 13" MBP, replaced hers with an Air, sadly before the keyboard change/latest update. Hopefully fine for her, but not possible for me to use as my daily personal and work system.

When the 2019 MBP16 came out...I had started traveling more for work, while I stopped traveling with my MBP15.
I did note - they finally reversed course, if only a little bit, and made the Touch Bar less stupid, splitting out an actual ESC key and going 'back' to a non butterfly keyboard. I'd had nearly all Pros in the past, including some with 'problematic' discrete GPUs, but no issues - possible because I dock my MBP at home and at work on a stand with some air below it, have numerous meetings spanning locations so do from desk instead of bouncing to meetings rooms often, and don't often go in/out of backpacks hot, basically more 'portable workstation occasionally used on the go/travel' versus some others - dunno.

Had the upcoming MBP '14' come out, offering 32GB RAM as an option, 2TB SSD, no dGPU, normal keyboard, and with any chance of driving my external displays without sounding like a jet plane - I may well have gone for that. I finally got pissed off enough at not being able to use my MBP15 I picked up a MBP16 a month back - 32GB RAM, 2TB SSD, 2.4GHz CPU, 8GB dGPU.

It's a nice system. Keyboard is fine, with an ESC key.
Yes, the dongle stupidity is there, but I already had dongles for the surface book pro dell clone, and basically said screw it, bought a CalDigit dock (the pro, not TS3+, one step down), plugged my 10 port USB-A hub into it (keyboard, ten key, scanner, headset charger, some charging ports), DisplayPort to 38" home external display, and I finally have a single cable solution on a nice system.

I still don't give a crap about the Touch Bar. Touch ID is fine-ish although lame it's still not integrated fully throughout the OS/apps (enter password vs touch id), and it would be better of it were positioned at the bottom of the keyboard or on the side of the case, for my use (when on a stand next to my external display), but fine for most I'm sure. It's sort of useful when plugging into an external device as it gives the display options for mirror, extend, etc. when connecting the cable. Maybe others get use out of it, so basically - I wouldn't pay for it as an option, EVER, but it finally doesn't bother me.

Anyways - personally I'd either consider an MBP16, or wait for the presumed MBP14 model upcoming. No, you won't get back FN keys, but you can use an external KB or consider remapping the Fns you use the most to hotkeys. The ESC key is back...finally. The keyboard is quite usable. Or for your use, possibly even an upgraded new MBA.. ?
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Ohhh thx for advice. I even didn't think about Linux as solution.
I would think about it.

I can't back to Windows after Mac/Unix terminal. I think doing things in Windows min 2x slower for me.

So - I REALLY am not a Windows or MS fan. They used to try to recruit me, but finally got the message as my response literally was always - not if you were the last company left on Earth.

But...some things have gotten better. The Windows Linux subsystem is basically a ubuntu system in a shell, none of the old-school broken 'almost unix' utilities of the past (e.g. Cygwin, MKS, ..). It's a step between running a full Linux VM on top of Windows. Of course, on MacOS - I just run an iTerm2 with macports and pretty much have most things I need, while I have Windows and Ubuntu VMs on hand for when I specifically need them.

I'd still consider the newest MBA, upcoming MBP14, or an MBP16 before I'd buy a Windows system, however.

Thinkpad keyboards are fine - they've always been pretty good. So have Apple's 'normal' laptop keyboards. I'd certainly not choose an entire OS and system change on that alone, though. Now the 'magic keyboard' is back, plus I use an external UHK mechanical switch KB whenever docked - yeah, I just wouldn't but a laptop/OS because of it, although the butterfly keyboard + lack of ESC key did indeed prevent me from buying a newer MBP sooner...thankfully now corrected.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,155
14,579
New Hampshire
I don't like the TouchBar but putting in a physical Escape key makes it tolerable. I do not need a new MacBook Pro but I like the current model.
 

Moonjumper

macrumors 68030
Jun 20, 2009
2,749
2,936
Lincoln, UK
I'm afraid it would be a little bit slow for my changed purposes.

Same for me, although I know it will suit many. I also dislike the Touch Bar, especially as it means paying more for less functionality. But as pshufd said, at least there is now a physical Escape key. So that gets over the problem you mentioned with Esc mis-clicks.
 
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overlof

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 1, 2010
21
13
Thank you for your responses. At least now I'm happy to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't see any improvements in their workflow with touchbar.
I really hope Apple would fix the problem.
P.S. Touchbar is gimmick for customers who like fine shine features without thinking about real functionality. Because if it is really cool thing, Apple should go further and make the whole keyboard being touch screen IMHO.
 

mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,888
2,101
DFW, TX
Purchased 4 TouchBar machines so far.

Now, that particular feature isn't a thing a use day to day but personally it is far and away a feature that pisses me off that it is there.

Physical keys were always quicker for me to make adjustments with, even with volume, keyboard, brightness.
My balance on that, is that touchbar brought with it touchid, which was my #1 feature of any macbook with it.

An entire touch keyboard, for me, would be absolutely terrible.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,155
14,579
New Hampshire
Purchased 4 TouchBar machines so far.

Now, that particular feature isn't a thing a use day to day but personally it is far and away a feature that pisses me off that it is there.

Physical keys were always quicker for me to make adjustments with, even with volume, keyboard, brightness.
My balance on that, is that touchbar brought with it touchid, which was my #1 feature of any macbook with it.

An entire touch keyboard, for me, would be absolutely terrible.

If they did that, I'd carry around a real keyboard with me.
 

ipponrg

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2008
2,309
2,087
I wonder if Apple product managers ever did user studies on the 2016 - 2020 Macbook Pros. Did they really not catch all of the glaring user experience flaws of this generation's laptops? Or did they catch it but the higher-ups just overruled them?

I'm pretty sure Apple as a company doesn't care as much about the negatives until several public outings over many years (e.g. how they handled the keyboard mishaps). I would not be surprised if product managers were vetoed by their superiors because ultimately the bottom line is sales and supply chain optimization. The irony about this is you would complain for several years, and then when Apple addresses the concern, some people are so thrilled and excited that Apple listened to them. It just goes to show you how patient the vocal minority is and how Apple has a good grasp of "toying" with their audience.

Thank you for your responses. At least now I'm happy to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't see any improvements in their workflow with touchbar.
I really hope Apple would fix the problem.
P.S. Touchbar is gimmick for customers who like fine shine features without thinking about real functionality. Because if it is really cool thing, Apple should go further and make the whole keyboard being touch screen IMHO.

Unfortunately for some like myself, we do development on Macbook Pros, so we need to update our machines every couple years. The touchbar works fine for volume and display sliders, but otherwise has been mostly useless. I do miss physical function keys as I had actually used them. I can see how some creatives or people that don't memorize hotkeys could consider the touchbar (via 3rd party tools like BTT comically) to be valuable to them. I would find it a miracle if they removed the touchbar in favor of physical F keys again. Apple's not known to backtrack a touted core feature on one of their center pieces. I believe the way Apple is handling the iPad Pro with an external keyboard is evidence that they feel the iPad Pro would not be capable of standing alone with just a touch screen keyboard.
 
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Madhatter32

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2020
1,479
2,951
The touchbar is a productivity killer and is ridiculous. If they included it in addition to a physical row of function keys, it would have been a lot more tolerable. The touchbar and butterfly keyboard are embarrassments to the brand in my opinion. If they really wanted to increase their market share of the laptop market, they should first concentrate on delivering a maximally useful tool rather than just striving to offer something, anything, a little different.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
It's 2020 now and Touch Bar has in fact become a bit more... useful than it was a few years ago.

For instance, IntelliJ shows some useful buttons depending on which workflow you are in:

Coupled with a physical Esc key now on the 16" MacBook, it is... useful for coding work. Also I have my Touch Bar customized to show language switcher for keyboard (more useful than having to do Ctrl + Spacebar every time) and also a screen lock button, which makes it easier for me to leave the computer since I just have to tap the far right corner of the touch bar.

I still hate it due to various reasons, but it's less a gimmick now in 2020, I think. Maybe the biggest part of that is the return of the physical Esc key.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,627
5,482
It's 2020 now and Touch Bar has in fact become a bit more... useful than it was a few years ago.

For instance, IntelliJ shows some useful buttons depending on which workflow you are in:

Coupled with a physical Esc key now on the 16" MacBook, it is... useful for coding work. Also I have my Touch Bar customized to show language switcher for keyboard (more useful than having to do Ctrl + Spacebar every time) and also a screen lock button, which makes it easier for me to leave the computer since I just have to tap the far right corner of the touch bar.

I still hate it due to various reasons, but it's less a gimmick now in 2020, I think. Maybe the biggest part of that is the return of the physical Esc key.
4 years later, it's become somewhat useful in limited cases.

As a developer, I will never find the touch bar useful. It's much faster to use keyboard shortcuts once you've memorized it. I hate looking down on my keyboard.
 
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