MP 7,1 POLL: When to buy a revised cheese grater Mac Pro?

[Schismz]

Buying one right away if not sooner... Although it's obviously infinitely flawed in a wide variety of ways which I can never get over, none-the-less, it is CHEESEGRATER! I <3 you. So then I'll get another one, as soon as they update it again, in 2025.

The thing that worries me just a tiny bit, is the glory of T2 and the joy of BridgeOS and Error 210! There's a lot of drama and kernel panics across MacBook Pros and iMac Pro, so then, add slots and complexity to that and will smoke pour out of ARM chip in T2?

Things I wonder about drinking scotch at 2 in the morning.

Also, that monitor with the $1K arm is beautiful. Gonna dump that sucker on my $99 glass table from Ikea.

Mmmmmm Cheesegrater, so much happiness, and probably not designed by Jony Ivy

If you put it into perspective, it all depends on what epoch you're from. The Apple ][ (no plus) empty cost about $5.5k adjusted to 2019 dollars. in 1988 a NeXT Cube cost around $15-$18K. Ya know, whatever, the Mac Pro does a lot more and doesn't even need a shift-key mod or 16K card to run integer BASIC!

Cheers

 

[skippermonkey]

With regard to my previous question, I forgot to say that with identical scenes, the 10-core iMac Pro was between 50% and 80% faster in rendering with Cinema 4D's native multi-threaded renderer (10 cores versus dual six cores). So with CPUs two years newer, plus more cores/threads, I should easily be in the twice-as-fast range. In fact with much higher base and boost GHz, I'd hope for even more...

 

[AidenShaw]

I suspect that a 12core 5,1 would do a decent job of keeping up with the new 8core, at least processor wise on anything that is multiprocessor heavy.

…on code that is compiled for old instruction sets, anyway.

On code that is optimized (even just by compiler switches) for Intel® AVX-512 or VNNI the new CPUs can be much, much faster. Intel also provides hand-tuned Math Kernel Libraries, so code that can use the libraries can get hand-tuned performance without the pain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_Kernel_Library

 

[goMac]

I suspect that a 12core 5,1 would do a decent job of keeping up with the new 8core, at least processor wise on anything that is multiprocessor heavy.

I’d expect an 8 core to be at least 30% faster than a 2010 12 core. And if you spend a few bucks to upgrade to a 12 core, that gulf will get a lot wider.

It’s a decent price/performance ratio on the 2012. But that’s against the worst 2019 config, while losing things like actual hardware and OS support.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

So here is an 8core iMac pro

https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/426

Vs a 12 core 3.46ghz 5,1
https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench3/compare/1702864?baseline=1702864

10% faster on multi core Geekbench for the iMac pro. Kind of pathetic difference and hardly worth the upgrade if you happen to have an ancient maxed out 5,1. I’m not sure how much faster the 8core Mac Pro will be but I’d be surprised if it were substantially more. Maybe it will be 15%.

Which goes back to my point, the 8 core model seems of little value if you need the box for grunt processing speed.

 

[Macintosh IIcx]

So here is an 8core iMac pro

https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/426

Vs a 12 core 3.46ghz 5,1
https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench3/compare/1702864?baseline=1702864

10% faster on multi core Geekbench for the iMac pro. Kind of pathetic difference and hardly worth the upgrade if you happen to have an ancient maxed out 5,1. I’m not sure how much faster the 8core Mac Pro will be but I’d be surprised if it were substantially more. Maybe it will be 15%.

Which goes back to my point, the 8 core model seems of little value if you need the box for grunt processing speed.

I have been thinking that Apple might give us a second “base” Mac Pro option with the 12 core CPU and 1 TB SSD but the base 580 GPU for a small discount. Would be a nice starter kit and then you can add GPU upgrades and Afterburner as you see fit.

How about that?

 

[MisterAndrew]

The title of this thread and the poll options don't match very well. I assumed the thread was asking when you plan to purchase the 7,1, but instead it asks if you're going to purchase the 7,1 (and right away) or wait to see if Apple releases an 8,1 or 9,1. We don't know if and when there'll be a replacement for the 7,1. It could be next year, it could be in a few years, several years, or never. I hope it sells very well so Apple will continue to develop the product line. If there's high demand for this type of machine maybe they will come out with a cheaper model. To answer what I thought the poll should be asking, I'm going to wait a few months myself, unless there's a really good sale during the holidays.

 

[deconstruct60]

Lol. This is interesting. So far, the poll is split 50/50 between getting this version or waiting for the next iteration. Good to see my complete indecision and paralysis is also felt by the broader community.

LOL. Primarily because has the other 50 percent chasing the phantom that PCI-e v5 is coming in 2020. It probably isnt'.

If Apple sticks with Intel for Mac Pro then PCI-e change may not come until 2021.

https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2336...r5-pcie-5-0-for-2021-granite-rapids-for-2022/

Intel is only doing a subset to PCI-e v4 in 2020 and not moving to PCIe-v5 until 2021. The above are Xeon SP and not enecessarily Xeon W. The Ice Lake SP package with 28 cores is probably going to be even bigger than the current socket( and stuffed with two dies. Good chance there will not be a XCC die at 10nm at all and only way to get to 28 cores will be with two. So Ice Lake W may be limited in core count. If Intel is doing XCC Xeon W more likely it is coming from Cooper Lake track and that will be PCI-e v3 ).

if Apple moved to AMD in a year? ..... Really? after taking 3 years to transition 2010 -> 2013 and 6 years to 2013 -> 2019 Apple is going to throw out their 2018-2019 board in 12 months (or less ) and come up with a new on AMD? That really sounds like something that would happen in this universe. Probably not going to happen in 2020.


As for PCI-e v6 that is just a cruel joke in 2021. PCi-e v6 is close to being a vendor neutral "Infinity Fabric" , "QPI" , NvidiaLink, OpenCAPI (IBM Power) than anything that will be deployed "down range" anytime in the sub 2023 time frame.


In short, the whacky thing is that two "phantoms" are almost getting 50% of the vote. I suspect some folks aren't really paying attention that these are phantoms but more so just wanting to buy non version 1 and actually voting on when version 2 might appear given the limited two choices.

The percentages on the whole poll ware whacked because only one of those systems is actually going to exist.









It also isn't very likely that AMD is going to dump PCI-e v4 in 2020 either. ( mostly same issue of folks who just made v4 motherboards and folks wanting return on investment. ). AMD is probably gong to focus on process shrink , clock improvements , and keeping up with the Jones on AVX/ML opcode updates than a major overhaul of their bandwidth backbone in 2020. They probably won't wave in PCI-e v5 until 2021 either.


Apple move to their own? Even bigger detachment from reality as they haven't even done x16 PCi-e v3 x16 let alone anything of double digit lane PCI-e v4 type bandwidth.

So where are these v5 2020 Mac Pro CPUs coming from?

 

[deconstruct60]

I have been thinking that Apple might give us a second “base” Mac Pro option with the 12 core CPU and 1 TB SSD but the base 580 GPU for a small discount.

Only really need 2-3 starting points for BTO variants. The "discount" is probably a phantom.

If the Vega II are priced fairly close to $2k (or more) then there probably would be another "standard configuration" that only included the 580X for the GPU. Apple could only couple in the Vega II once get past the core count for the iMac Pro. So perhaps another 24 core "standard config" with a Vega II. By that point, the CPU price will be in the very expensive zone. So the Vega II price tacked on won't leave that many more folks behind.

There may be no Vega II starting point if Apple puts the rack mount variant on the same page. Two two towers starting with 580X and one Rack starting with 580X and the rest are just all BTO.


The notion that most Mac Pro 2019 are going to get sold in pre-boxed, standard configurations from retail is probably way off at this starting price. Most are probably going to be BTO. Some larger ships like B&H and a few others that have customers with track records that can reliably infer from may get some pre-deployed BTO boxes The rack model probably won't be deployed at all in Apple retail store in-house inventory.

If a high fraction of the purchases are Purchase Order and/or BTO then there is zero need for more than two "standard configurations".

Would be a nice starter kit and then you can add GPU upgrades and Afterburner as you see fit.

How about that?

If this configuration is available via BTO then what gaining by making it a standard configuration. If it is gong to be a very dominant configuration chosen then may get some time to ship fixes but it probably won't come at any discount (at least from Apple).

If the entry base configuration for the Mac Pro isn't working as well for Apple as expected, more likely they will do what they didn't with the iMac Pro and work with some retailers to put some chronically constant 'discount' on it at those shops to move a bit more volume. Apple will keep the same prices.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

LOL. Primarily because has the other 50 percent chasing the phantom that PCI-e v5 is coming in 2020. It probably isnt'.

If Apple sticks with Intel for Mac Pro then PCI-e change may not come until 2021.

https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2336...r5-pcie-5-0-for-2021-granite-rapids-for-2022/

Intel is only doing a subset to PCI-e v4 in 2020 and not moving to PCIe-v5 until 2021. The above are Xeon SP and not enecessarily Xeon W. The Ice Lake SP package with 28 cores is probably going to be even bigger than the current socket( and stuffed with two dies. Good chance there will not be a XCC die at 10nm at all and only way to get to 28 cores will be with two. So Ice Lake W may be limited in core count. If Intel is doing XCC Xeon W more likely it is coming from Cooper Lake track and that will be PCI-e v3 ).

if Apple moved to AMD in a year? ..... Really? after taking 3 years to transition 2010 -> 2013 and 6 years to 2013 -> 2019 Apple is going to throw out their 2018-2019 board in 12 months (or less ) and come up with a new on AMD? That really sounds like something that would happen in this universe. Probably not going to happen in 2020.


As for PCI-e v6 that is just a cruel joke in 2021. PCi-e v6 is close to being a vendor neutral "Infinity Fabric" , "QPI" , NvidiaLink, OpenCAPI (IBM Power) than anything that will be deployed "down range" anytime in the sub 2023 time frame.


In short, the whacky thing is that two "phantoms" are almost getting 50% of the vote. I suspect some folks aren't really paying attention that these are phantoms but more so just wanting to buy non version 1 and actually voting on when version 2 might appear given the limited two choices.

The percentages on the whole poll ware whacked because only one of those systems is actually going to exist.









It also isn't very likely that AMD is going to dump PCI-e v4 in 2020 either. ( mostly same issue of folks who just made v4 motherboards and folks wanting return on investment. ). AMD is probably gong to focus on process shrink , clock improvements , and keeping up with the Jones on AVX/ML opcode updates than a major overhaul of their bandwidth backbone in 2020. They probably won't wave in PCI-e v5 until 2021 either.


Apple move to their own? Even bigger detachment from reality as they haven't even done x16 PCi-e v3 x16 let alone anything of double digit lane PCI-e v4 type bandwidth.

So where are these v5 2020 Mac Pro CPUs coming from?

I cannot argue with you on the actual releases. Time will tell and past performance timings are no predictor of new releases. If anything, the large gap of time between PCI3 and 4 shows that things are highly variable.

That said, even if you are correct, SOME PCI 5 and 6 cards will, IMO, likely come out in the rough time frames I suggest. That they are not suitable to the mac for whatever intel etc reasons does not change the psychology of paying a lot for what seems to be out of date tech. So I suspect, even still, a lot of people will hold back because of that.

Things like this make it all the more tempting knowing that tech is out:

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

The title of this thread and the poll options don't match very well. I assumed the thread was asking when you plan to purchase the 7,1, but instead it asks if you're going to purchase the 7,1 (and right away) or wait to see if Apple releases an 8,1 or 9,1. We don't know if and when there'll be a replacement for the 7,1. It could be next year, it could be in a few years, several years, or never. I hope it sells very well so Apple will continue to develop the product line. If there's high demand for this type of machine maybe they will come out with a cheaper model. To answer what I thought the poll should be asking, I'm going to wait a few months myself, unless there's a really good sale during the holidays.

Sorry about my sloppy titling. Yea, I guess when you spell it out, youre right. A new PCI architecture would rightly increment this to an 8,1 and 9,1 machine. And I do guess that's what I'm concerned about. The long lag on PCI3 had kept the 5,1 mac pro peculiarly relevant for a very long time, and some might argue still so. But the fast iteration of at least the PCI 4, 5 and 6 specs, we're talking 8x the bandwidth.

I think most are correct, that for right now, that is mostly meaningless, but I get the feeling that upon completion of the PCI 6 spec, that we will not see the same break-neck pace of doubling of bandwidth. Of course I could easily be wrong, but I have a feeling that the fast release of PCI 5 and 6 in almost yearly intervals from 4 has a bit to do in correcting the 8 year lag that we were stuck with 3. Or heck, maybe we continue to get a doubling every 18 months (at least spec wise). My guess is that PCI 7 will not come out with that but would be more a refinement. But who knows.

Anyway, with the compressed release of PCI 4, 5 and 6, for me, it provides a different calculous on how much to spend on a machine now, because it's very likely that the 7,1 machine will not be a 5-7 year lasting machine like the 5,1 was. So do I want to wait for the version 5/6 phantoms or drop the money now... Not to mention, that by the time PCI 6 is "ready" for all we know, apple will abandon intel architecture completely and then I'll wish I had bought whatever was the last intel machine (for virtualization needs I have).

I think the split in voting is showing that others are also having similar thoughts. But all of us considering waiting may well be wrongly hoping for and chasing phantoms.

 

[AidenShaw]

it's very likely that the 7,1 machine will not be a 5-7 year lasting machine like the 5,1 was

Did the 5,1 last for 5-7 years, or was it more to the point that Apple failed to produce a meaningful upgrade for that long?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Did the 5,1 last for 5-7 years, or was it more to the point that Apple failed to produce a meaningful upgrade for that long?

Well we have their failed 2013 machine which was a serious update, but a misplaced one. But was it meaningfully more powerful when you added a new video card to the 5,1? Not really IMO. Fair minded folks might feel differently, but it wasn't really any faster, and in many configurations, slower.

 

[pertusis1]

The poll didn't really have my answer. I won't be the first to buy one, but when I replace my 5,1 12 core 3.46 GHz, it will likely be with the new MP. It's expensive, but I've just been so happy with my 5,1 that I'll probably give the product line another whirl. Here's to hoping Amazon has another pricing mistake on it the Mac Pro.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Zombie, regarding the 28 core BTO you were wondering about at the beginning I wrongfully said this CPU goes for 4.449,00 USD. In fact, the 24 and 28 core CPUs are the M version for sure, since Apple mentions the 1.5TB limit for those to options. That raises the bar to 7.453,00 USD for the 28 core. Sorry mate

 

[Macpro2019]

I’m buying it. No more waiting.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Zombie, regarding the 28 core BTO you were wondering about at the beginning I wrongfully said this CPU goes for 4.449,00 USD. In fact, the 24 and 28 core CPUs are the M version for sure, since Apple mentions the 1.5TB limit for those to options. That raises the bar to 7.453,00 USD for the 28 core. Sorry mate

Yea it will be interesting to see what apple sells them for. That is a "list" price which we know is mostly bunk. But Apple could give us a pass through cost break (haha apple being reasonable on extras) at say $3k upgrade, they could sell it for the 7.5k and pocket a very nice 50% margin off list, or they can continue their recent SSD-like super gouging and charge us more.

I suspect it will be somewhere between $3k and 7.5k, but I'm totally speculating.

 

[eksu]

I'll be rocking my cMP until it's just to much of a bottleneck for PC gaming, if that's either PCIE bandwidth or being unable to run versions of macOS that support a better video card than a Radeon VII and that card getting long in the tooth.

I wonder what the modular mac pro's update cycle will be like and if it will make sense in a few years to buy one secondhand or if it will make more sense to stay with the latest and greatest.

 

[lowendlinux]

Ill wait 12 to 18 months from the shipping to decide..

 

[StrawberryX]

Still working with the 1,1, 3.1 and 6.1.
Thinking going mini for Mac Os, windows for the raw power.
And see what becomes of that modular mac pro,
how well the industry adopts it, and what Apple does further exept announcing it ...

 

[leekil]

People are talking about thermal throttling, and how much faster can the new Mac Pro cam be than a 8-core MacBook Pro. I believe the entire point of these new Mac Pros is that they are so well cooled, that thermal throttling is a minimal issue (or maybe not at all?). Go back and read some of the articles and Apple's information about the fans and the isolation of the components into their own wind tunnels. I don't know for sure, but it seemed like that was reasonably clearly emphasized. A MacBook Pro is going to be way more thermally constrained than a Mac Pro.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

People are talking about thermal throttling, and how much faster can the new Mac Pro cam be than a 8-core MacBook Pro. I believe the entire point of these new Mac Pros is that they are so well cooled, that thermal throttling is a minimal issue (or maybe not at all?). Go back and read some of the articles and Apple's information about the fans and the isolation of the components into their own wind tunnels. I don't know for sure, but it seemed like that was reasonably clearly emphasized. A MacBook Pro is going to be way more thermally constrained than a Mac Pro.

I think that's right, but I wonder how much faster that translates to. I think the tests show the latest 8 core runs at around 3ghz full on. So let's say this machine runs at 4ghz, that is sizeable. But again, for the price it brings up a lot of questions on value.

Also of note, after all this time, the survey is still at 50/50.

 

[Kpjoslee]

Well, can't really vote when a poll itself is wrong. There won't be any PCIe 5.0 supported CPUs in 2020. Earliest possible timeline for PCIe 5.0 is 2021 with Sapphire Rapids.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Well, can't really vote when a poll itself is wrong. There won't be any PCIe 5.0 supported CPUs in 2020. Earliest possible timeline for PCIe 5.0 is 2021 with Sapphire Rapids.

Well consider it saying 20/21 and 21/22 then. Obviously we do not know when the actual tech will start shipping in the broader market, much less from intel and apple.

 

[danwells]

I don't imagine more than one Apple standard configuration - and I'd be shocked if the average Apple store had one in stock even in the base configuration (other than the demo model). There are very few places where you can walk in to a store and buy a HP Z8 workstation off the shelf.

B&H, being B&H, does have four configurations of the Z8 in stock - so you can get one tomorrow if you happen to live in New York City. Even B&H encourages you to call and talk to their HP certified technician to custom configure a Z8 that they will order for you, rather than buying one off the shelf. Adorama, B&H's major competitor for pro still photographers, doesn't even bother - it's configure only there. Being a photographer, I wouldn't know who the specialist video, CAD, etc... retailers who might stock a few are. I know that plenty of scientists (and probably other users of high-end computers) buy them from B&H, because they're fast and reliable.

The average Apple store will pass you to the business sales team as soon as you express interest in the Mac Pro, and they'll order you exactly what you want. Remmember that you can't even get an iMac Pro other than the base model without ordering it. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple does some of the configuration at a US facility (for North American customers - they'll probably have an European option, for their European customers - handling Asia from China, Korea or Japan) so they can get them out quicker. These boat anchors won't be cheap to air-freight halfway around the world, and multi-week sea shipment times are unacceptable. For the number of systems, it wouldn't be a huge team to configure them - ship the machines without CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD from Foxconn, then pop the configurable pieces in at an Apple facility relatively near the customer.

The reason I said "more than one Apple standard configuration" is that B&H (who stock 7 models of the iMac Pro in the store, with three more in the warehouse for immediate shipment) will almost certainly make up some standard configurations of their own - either ordering them from Apple to keep a few in stock, doing B&H kits where they add their own RAM and possibly other parts, or some combination. A few other big dealers may stock a few configurations as well. There's probably someone in Hollywood who will.