PowerMac Buying Advice

[gabriel_uk]

Have read this thread with great interest, and want to wish whitepawn, salmacis and anyone else here buying a PM a nice smooth ride.

My own 'research' has led me to the following conclusions:

1. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with buying a liquid-cooled 2.5 or 2.7 PowerMac. But if the manufacturer of the liquid-cooling system says it's good for only 3 years, I feeler safer going with a 2.3 - which according to barefeats.com is about 90% as fast a 2.7 PM.

2. It clearly makes financial sense to add 3rd party RAM etc. But I'm gonna sound like a wimp and say that I prefer to pay Apple to do most of the customizing - mainly so I know that as much as possible is covered under AppleCare.

3. Which is my next point. To my mind, AppleCare is essential. I've had about 3 HD crashes in the last 5 years, and often thanked God I'd paid for AppleCare. I reckon AppleCare is a pretty good deal compared to the cost of many other extended warranties - like those for plasma screens etc.

4. When it comes to a graphics card, however, the upgrade of choice is the ATI Radeon X800XT - which means going 3rd party. Again, I'm basing this on the findings of the barefeats site, as well as various discussions by MacRumors members.

Considering that barefeats.com shows that the Radeon 9650 appears to run SLOWER than the 9600, is there really any point in paying an extra 50 bucks/ 30 quid for it? Isn't it better to put that money towards the Radeon X800XT - which can be bought in the UK for about 280 pounds?

BTW, I emailed the guy who runs barefeats.com to ask whether the X800XT would make any difference over the 9600 when using Final Cut or Photoshop, and his his reply was: "Right now, there are no advantages with those two apps, although that could change with revisions that hand off effect rendering and filters to the graphics card."

So my graphics card conclusion is to stay with the standard 9600 and upgrade to the X800XT if I'm actually gonna benefit from using it - which currently means doing some gaming or running apps like Motion 2 or iMaginator.

...Well I'm on the verge of buying a 2.3 PM with 2 gig of RAM and a 400 HD (togther with a 23-in Apple display) - especially after reading the convincing assertion by MacRumors member jiggie2g that "Apple will never release a dual processor dual core G5 - it would cost too much... A single 970MP system would perform no better than the current offerings."

In other words, it probably isn't worth waiting until the Autumn or beyond for the next/last PPC PowerMac, and to wait 2 years plus for a 2nd generation (tried, tested & improved) PowerMactel is just way too long!

 

[DrRock]

^

Thanks for the input, it will definitely help me make a better decision. I didn't know about the 3 year thing with the liquid cooling system. I definitely plan to use mine for longer than that, so I will take that into consideration.

BTW, what is everyone's experience with buying through the Apple Store? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to going through them? Do you pay tax through them, or is tax waived if you're out of state? How does that all work? Am I better off getting it somewhere else? Is it ok to buy it from a third party, as long as it's an authorized reseller? Opinions?

 

[FFTT]

Installing your own RAM is a 5 minute job!

You simply have to carefully push HARD to make sure the RAM is properly
seated and the RAM clips click all the way into position.

You access the RAM slots simply by sliding out the fan assembly
which is a plug in connection with no chance for error.

Paying Apple 70% more for factory original Samsung RAM is not worth it.
You can buy your RAM 3rd party at OWC or Crucial and save a bundle.

 

[wiseguy27]

I have a dual 2.3GHz and while it does get hot, I don't think it's a major concern. With increasing CPU load, the fans might rev up a lot more and you would hear a "whirr" if you're close to it, but I haven't felt it to be annoying or "too noisy". Of course, this is a subjective thing.

Thanks for that info too. Are you sitting next to your machine (meaning is the Mac on your desk?) And is it rather silent, when idle?

I sit right next to my Mac (less than 30cm/1 foot away). My current setup is this - I sit with my back to the wall and I have the back of the Power Mac (where the exhaust is) next to me on my left and the monitor to the right of the Mac (in front of me). I also sit at a lower level (compared to normal chairs) so I'm closer to the outlets. It's silent when I'm doing some non-heavyduty stuff (like browsing or word processing etc.) - from the front, you can see the fans rotate at a very low speed when the load is less (to compare, they look a little bit faster than how giant windmills appear to rotate).

It's gets a little bit noisy when the CPU load is more, but I wouldn't say that it's noisy.

 

[wiseguy27]

BTW, what is everyone's experience with buying through the Apple Store? Is there any advantage or disadvantage to going through them?

The biggest advantage of buying direct from Apple is customization. If you want a BTO (built-to-order) Mac, this is the best choice. Except for Powemax in the US, I do not know of any other seller that offers any customization apart from the stock Apple models (maybe the only addition most resellers may offer is more RAM).

Do you pay tax through them, or is tax waived if you're out of state? How does that all work?

In the US, you pay sales tax in all the states when you buy from Apple (except in the states that don't have sales tax).

Am I better off getting it somewhere else? Is it ok to buy it from a third party, as long as it's an authorized reseller? Opinions?

As I said, it depends on what you want to get. If you're ok with the stock models shown on the Apple store, then you would probably be better off getting it from an authorized reseller since they usually try to provide additional bundled components/equipment for less (like more RAM, free printer etc. after mail-in-rebates, of course). Don't expect a huge discount on the machine though - most resellers offer $5 and $10 off on Power Macs! What a joke!!! But you could save on the sales tax if you buy from an out-of-state reseller. The warranty remains the same when you buy from a reseller. AppleCare could also be bought from resellers (but it's always activated through Apple).

If you want to customize the configuration for anything except RAM, the Apple store is your best choice. Powermax is ok in my experience - they really sucked when I requested quotes online through their website several times and they didn't respond! Over the phone they do answer the questions better.

I also don't think resellers would be able to give an educational discount, if that's something you could use.

 

[wiseguy27]

Also planning to add a second SATA, 250GB afterwards. Will probably make a (software) RAID 1 out of it. Does anyone know, if I have to reinstall / repartion for this. Or is it possible to plug it in, and configure RAID 1 and everything is mirrored?

You don't have to reinstall to create a RAID. It's pretty simple to do it with 'Disk Utility' once you plug in the new hard disk.

And what about performance? Is it seriously affected?

Yes and no. The performance would take a small hit when you use RAID 1 (mirroring). But it depends on what you're doing. For heavy duty video work, a striped RAID would be much better, although it doesn't provide increased reliability like mirrored RAID does. Maybe the best option would be to add the second SATA HDD, and play with the RAID options to see what suits you - you have nothing to lose.

I wish Apple would provide RAID 5, but maybe it's available through third party software.

 

[DrRock]

Student discounts

Oh yeah, I forgot about the student discount. How does that work? Do you have to be currently enrolled at the time of purchase? I'm not taking any classes right now because it's summer, but do I qualify anyway? My school is listed on their educational pricing list. Can I get the discount now, or will I have to wait until fall when I'm enrolled?

 

[FFTT]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the student discount. How does that work? Do you have to be currently enrolled at the time of purchase? I'm not taking any classes right now because it's summer, but do I qualify anyway? My school is listed on their educational pricing list. Can I get the discount now, or will I have to wait until fall when I'm enrolled?

You should be fine qualifying as long as you're still a student.

 

[wiseguy27]

Student ADC

Oh yeah, I forgot about the student discount. How does that work? Do you have to be currently enrolled at the time of purchase? I'm not taking any classes right now because it's summer, but do I qualify anyway? My school is listed on their educational pricing list. Can I get the discount now, or will I have to wait until fall when I'm enrolled?

Since you're a student, if you could wait a bit, then the Student ADC (Apple Developer Connection) might be a better option. For Power Macs the savings is a lot more than the base EDU discounts. All that you need to do is pay Apple $99 to become a student ADC member (with adequate proof), wait a couple of days for them to verify that you're a student and activate your membership, then go to the ADC Hardware Purchase Store online (this IS NOT the same as the education store online) and choose what you want and place an order. The $99 you pay would be more than compensated for by the discount you get.

Check http://developer.apple.com/students/index.html for more details.

 

[salmacis]

After all of that research I decided in the last second to up the order to the dual 2.5 machine.

Cool. Congratulations (so there´s only me and DrRock left )

Weren´t you concerned about the liquid cooling? I´m doing really hard to decide between the 2.3 and 2.7, mostly because of doubts regarding the water cooling (durability...). If I were rather sure, that the liquid cooling lasts as long as my computer is used, I would probably take it. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

salmacis

 

[salmacis]

Since you're a student, if you could wait a bit, then the Student ADC (Apple Developer Connection) might be a better option. For Power Macs the savings is a lot more than the base EDU discounts.

This is a good hint - I´ve purchased my PowerBook through Student ADC last fall, and saved about 20% off the list price. Worked flawlessly, and you have the additional benefits of getting developer cd's/dvds each month, a welcome t-shirt (got a cool tiger t-shirt too and some more.

Remember, this is a once-per-lifetime discount - you can also add a display, ipod, cables and get discount for it (but is was not as much as for the computer...) - and is has to be on the same order.

salmacis

 

[salmacis]

...Well I'm on the verge of buying a 2.3 PM with 2 gig of RAM and a 400 HD (togther with a 23-in Apple display) - especially after reading the convincing assertion by MacRumors member jiggie2g that "Apple will never release a dual processor dual core G5 - it would cost too much... A single 970MP system would perform no better than the current offerings."

In other words, it probably isn't worth waiting until the Autumn or beyond for the next/last PPC PowerMac, and to wait 2 years plus for a 2nd generation (tried, tested & improved) PowerMactel is just way too long!

Do you have a link to that post of jiggie2g? Couldnt find it. This assertion really makes sense.

 

[gabriel_uk]

Installing your own RAM is a 5 minute job!

You simply have to carefully push HARD to make sure the RAM is properly
seated and the RAM clips click all the way into position.

You access the RAM slots simply by sliding out the fan assembly
which is a plug in connection with no chance for error.

Paying Apple 70% more for factory original Samsung RAM is not worth it.
You can buy your RAM 3rd party at OWC or Crucial and save a bundle.

Thanks - you've convinced me!!

 

[gabriel_uk]

Do you have a link to that post of jiggie2g? Couldnt find it. This assertion really makes sense.

Hi salmacis - yes, here is the link to that post - https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1536442#post1536442

 

[salmacis]

Hi salmacis - yes, here is the link to that post - https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1536442#post1536442

Thanks - nice thread. Adding the 970MP would also mean a completely new logic board for the PowerMac, or am I wrong? One could doubt, if Apple would put up the resources for this regarding the lifetime of PPC-based PowerMacs... And a dual dual seems also very far away, if not irrealistic.

That saying, I´m pretty sure I will order a dual 2.3 in the next days - just one thing: Do you guys believe, that there will be a price reduction soon because of the single 1.8 drop?

salmacis

 

[deadfrog]

doubt they will drop the price, havent ever known apple do drop their prices unless they change stuff to the machines and i dont think dropping a machine counts, although i could be wrong....

bit dissapointed about hearing the 9650 performing slower than the 9600... just assumed that the more video memory the better.... But then assumption is supposedly the mother of all f**k ups...

does anyone know if this is very noticable, if at all?

think it was on that barefeats site that they said it runs at a slower clock speed, so wonder if you can just use that ati app to overclock it to the same speed without any problems...

 

[gabriel_uk]

bit dissapointed about hearing the 9650 performing slower than the 9600... just assumed that the more video memory the better.... But then assumption is supposedly the mother of all f**k ups...

does anyone know if this is very noticable, if at all?

think it was on that barefeats site that they said it runs at a slower clock speed, so wonder if you can just use that ati app to overclock it to the same speed without any problems...

I wouldn't call buying the 9650 a f**k up - maybe just a little unecessary. I believe the only thing it can do that the 9600 can't is run a 30-inch cinema display.

Here are the speed results - there isn't much difference between them, and I'm sure nothing that's perceptible... http://barefeats.com/rad9650.html

Just placed an order for a 2.3 with 1 gig of RAM and a 400 GB HD (together with a 23-in display) - plus I ordered a 400 GB Seagate HD and 2 more gigs of Crucial RAM from http://www.komplett.co.uk

The extra HD and RAM cost me £340, which meant that I saved about £150 ($275) by going 3rd party.

Now comes the wait!

 

[salmacis]

I wouldn't call buying the 9650 a f**k up - maybe just a little unecessary. I believe the only thing it can do that the 9600 can't is run a 30-inch cinema display.

Is the 9600 of the current models the same as the 9600XT tested at barefeats? Is it passively cooled? I´m also wondering why I should pay 50$ more then...

Just placed an order for a 2.3 with 1 gig of RAM and a 400 GB HD (together with a 23-in display) - plus I ordered a 400 GB Seagate HD and 2 more gigs of Crucial RAM from http://www.komplett.co.uk

Congratulations to your purchase!

Are you planning to make a software RAID 1?

Personally, I wouldn't take the overpriced Apple RAM* and pay the extra 200$ for the 400GB disk. You could easily sell the 250GB disk, that was installed, and buy a 400GB disk much cheaper, or am I wrong?

*And for the RAM: It is 100 Euro more for getting 2x512 builtin - for the same amount, I would get 2x512 in addition, thus having 1.5 gigs. Of course you "lose" some slots, but the 2.3 has plenty of them in my opinion...

salmacis

 

[gabriel_uk]

Is the 9600 of the current models the same as the 9600XT tested at barefeats? Is it passively cooled? I´m also wondering why I should pay 50$ more then...

I read that the 9600XT refers to the 128 MB type, which is also the one that Apple supplies as standard - so yes, they are the same.

Congratulations to your purchase!

Thanks!

Are you planning to make a software RAID 1?

I'm gonna sound stoopid here but - wozzat?? And how do I do it if it's worth doing?

Personally, I wouldn't take the overpriced Apple RAM* and pay the extra 200$ for the 400GB disk. You could easily sell the 250GB disk, that was installed, and buy a 400GB disk much cheaper, or am I wrong?

I hear what you're saying, for sure. But I've saved a bit of money, don't have to bother with selling anything, and will have 3 gig of RAM and 2 x 400 drives, so I'm happy enough.

My hardest decision, as it happens, was between the 23-in display and the 30-in. The money is one thing - an extra 1350 quid ($2500) including a Radeon X800XT. But the main thing for me is that my eyes tend to get pretty dry and irritated after looking at the screen for most of the day - and I know from experience that the bigger the screen, the stronger the light effect. So I decided stay with the 23-in - which in its favour is about 50% bigger than the NEC LCD I've been using.

Of course I still lust after the 30-inch - but try to remember that my eyes have got to be more important! Plus I don't do much video-editing or any gaming, to be honest...

 

[deadfrog]

ok, feel slightly better about it again. Thanks gabriel.

Also congratulations on purchase... Mine still aint been shippped as of yet, but am waiting eagerly... and in theory only has two more days at the most till it should be shipped...

decided to buy myself an extra 1 gig of ram from crucial to beef it up a bit more, figured for an extra £70 it was probably worth it.

 

[salmacis]

I read that the 9600XT refers to the 128 MB type, which is also the one that Apple supplies as standard - so yes, they are the same.

Probably yes. at http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/radeon9600pro/compare.html, we can read that the 9600 has a lower clock speed than the 9600xt (don´t know if this also applies to mac editions) - this is in any case a different info, than the one from barefeats.com. So I´m really puzzled.

However, I will most probably take the 9650 - but only because of dual-link. If the 30" would be reduced sometime, it could be handy, and the 9650 offers the cheapest path to dual-link. I´m not a frequent gamer, and for Quake 3 the 9650 is sufficient. I would have to invest too much for Doom 3 to play it anyway at higher resolutions

I'm gonna sound stoopid here but - wozzat?? And how do I do it if it's worth doing?

RAID 1 is a mirroring of two harddrives. It offers increased availability (one harddrive could fail) and could generally offer better read-perfomance.

However, I thought about it, and will probably take the 400gig disk too. Regarding the hassle of selling the 250g and reinstalling the 400g, it is not so much of a price difference.

I am still not sure, if I shouldn´t go for the 2x512MB default. Mainly because it takes long for the 2x1GB sticks (Kingston. after-market) to arrive (about 3 weeks) - and I don´t´want to have my nice machine with 512MB for the first two weeks It would be such a bad experience probably.

My hardest decision, as it happens, was between the 23-in display and the 30-in.

Yeah, the 30" is a nice monster. The 23" is surely a great deal.

I have a 20" currently, which is nice when hooked up to my PowerBook, but could be too small when used solely on the PowerMac. So I thought about adding another 20" - two 20" offer more space than one 23", of course they consume also more energy and space... Or I could go for the 23" (which would be sufficient) and sell the 20"... What would you do?

salmacis

 

[salmacis]

Just placed an order for a 2.3 with 1 gig of RAM and a 400 GB HD

Do you know which type is the 400GB HD? Manufacturer, Series?

Thanks.

 

[gabriel_uk]

Probably yes. at http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/radeon9600pro/compare.html, we can read that the 9600 has a lower clock speed than the 9600xt (don´t know if this also applies to mac editions) - this is in any case a different info, than the one from barefeats.com. So I´m really puzzled.

Okay, that ATI webpage sort of explains why the 9600XT outperforms the 9650 - but why the plain old 9600 provided by Apple inside the 2.3 machine probably doesn't. I guess rob-ART of barefeats decided to compare the 9650 with the 9600XT because the 9600XT came as standard in the previous 2.5 machine.

BTW, check out this interesting Macworld benchmark page, which happens to mention these ATI cards in passing - http://www.macworld.com/2005/05/news/powermacbenchmarks/index.php

However, I will most probably take the 9650 - but only because of dual-link. If the 30" would be reduced sometime, it could be handy, and the 9650 offers the cheapest path to dual-link. I´m not a frequent gamer, and for Quake 3 the 9650 is sufficient. I would have to invest too much for Doom 3 to play it anyway at higher resolutions

Are Quake and Doom fun? Another stupid Q, I know - but I'm not a gamer as you can see! I'm sort of curious though...

RAID 1 is a mirroring of two harddrives. It offers increased availability (one harddrive could fail) and could generally offer better read-perfomance.

RAID sounds very useful - excellent in fact. But what I want to use the 2nd HD for (and this may sound a little nutty!) is to store a hunk of iTunes music in Apple Lossless format. Not just from imported CDs but from digitalized vinyl and cassette tapes. I like to be able to listen to a wide choice of CD-quality sounds through my Harmon Kardons - at the click of a mouse!

I am still not sure, if I shouldn´t go for the 2x512MB default. Mainly because it takes long for the 2x1GB sticks (Kingston. after-market) to arrive (about 3 weeks) - and I don´t´want to have my nice machine with 512MB for the first two weeks It would be such a bad experience probably.

Frankly I think it's worth paying a little more to avoid wasting 2 RAM slots on only 512 MB, which is just a quarter of their capacity.

I have a 20" currently, which is nice when hooked up to my PowerBook, but could be too small when used solely on the PowerMac. So I thought about adding another 20" - two 20" offer more space than one 23", of course they consume also more energy and space... Or I could go for the 23" (which would be sufficient) and sell the 20"... What would you do?

I have read other threads that have debated the virtues, for example, of 2 x 23" versus 1 x 30" displays. What I have never been clear about is whether you are able to see one application open in one display, and a different app. open in the 2nd. If this is possible, I would definitely feel tempted.

Otherwise, my natural inclination is towards one good-sized display - 'good-sized' meaning 23" or more. It's all a matter of personal preference, of course.

...At one stage I was considering buying a 20" iMac instead of the 2.3 GHz/23" kit I'm waiting for. And although it is a great value machine, looking at it in the Apple Store made me think that if youve been used to using a 17" or 18" display, the iMac display just isn't big enough. I bet Apple will bring out a 23" iMac at some point.

 

[gabriel_uk]

Do you know which type is the 400GB HD? Manufacturer, Series?

I wondered that myself, but don't know.

As far as the extra 400GB HD I'm buying, I researched that quite carefully and decided that Seagate was definitely the way to go - in terms of both speed and reliability.

 

[salmacis]

Okay, that ATI webpage sort of explains why the 9600XT outperforms the 9650 - but why the plain old 9600 provided by Apple inside the 2.3 machine probably doesn't. I guess rob-ART of barefeats decided to compare the 9650 with the 9600XT because the 9600XT came as standard in the previous 2.5 machine.

Does the current 9600 outperform the 9650, really?

Are Quake and Doom fun? Another stupid Q, I know - but I'm not a gamer as you can see! I'm sort of curious though...

Just try it In later days it was more fun to me, I have to admit, but sometimes i still fire up quake 3 arena, and its nice.

But what I want to use the 2nd HD for (and this may sound a little nutty!) is to store a hunk of iTunes music in Apple Lossless format. Not just from imported CDs but from digitalized vinyl and cassette tapes. I like to be able to listen to a wide choice of CD-quality sounds through my Harmon Kardons - at the click of a mouse!

That doesn´t sound nutty to me! I´m also a hi-fi fan, but I find 196kbps+ AAC-encoding sufficient for me. Thus, I can have all my 500+ records on my iPod...

I read thouroghly tests of hi-fi experts comparing different encoding techniques, and the baseline was: if you encode at 196kbps or more, you don´t´hear differences at all. Even experts on 10K$+ setups...

But, of course Apple Lossless is a nice format to build up a music archive, without being concerned about a possible loss in quality - which is mostly a psychological loss, not an audible... however, I understand you well.

Frankly I think it's worth paying a little more to avoid wasting 2 RAM slots on only 512 MB, which is just a quarter of their capacity.

Yeah, that's true, but the nice thing about the 2.3 is its 8 slots, which are plenty. I´m still unsure.

What I have never been clear about is whether you are able to see one application open in one display, and a different app. open in the 2nd. If this is possible, I would definitely feel tempted.

Of course this is possible, you have one desktop which spans two displays. It is so nice!

I think I´ll probably leave my 20" and wait for a significant price reduction of the 30". The jump from 20" to 23" is not that big I think.

salmacis